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Thread: Sources ESPN: Jose Calderon wants trade (#68)

  1. #201
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    So when players come out its to the 'detriment' of their teams, but when GMs do its a positive route to take because it helps control 'gossip and shady dealings'? Sure seems like a double standard to me

    Both the Denver and Orlando situations was played out publically. I don't remember who initiated it, but it has led to no shortage of gossip, rumours, shady dealings and bad will towards both parties.
    Sure seems like you've already made up your mind and I wasted pixels in response so you could further purse your argument against any or all counter arguments.

    Why has Denver and Orlando played out so publicly? Carmelo and no one in Denver publicly addressed the situation and it has been the same in Orlando. Who initiated it? Come on, seriously? Really? Who wanted out of Denver and who wants out of Orlando? Who do you think initiated it all?

    This is an old lockout topic but players are employees. It is not their right to sabotage the company. If management chooses a course of action then one would have to assume they are doing so in what they perceive to be in the best interests of the company. You might not agree but you aren't getting paid to agree or make the decision in the first place.

    Maybe you are too young to remember but years ago Frank Gifford and Kathy Lee-Gifford fought rumours published in the National Enquirer that he had been unfaithful. The Gifford's fought back saying it was not true. The Enquirer said, "Umm, yeah they are and if you don't fess up we'll prove it." The Gifford's called them out again. Next issue: photos of Frankie at the local hour rate motel with a huge tittied blonde. The story then become national news - not just tabloid fodder - and the Gifford's look pretty silly. Moral of the story: with controversy on the horizon, deal with it on your own terms publicly before someone else is able to spin it to your detriment.

  2. #202
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    Toronto trade Calderon + James Johnson + Ed Davis to the Wolves for Derrick Williams + Luke Ridnour

    Derrick Williams has lost its favorite for the Wolves since they just acquired Batum who will be starting for them. We get an unpolished star in the making player in Derrick Williams who could turn to be a poor man's Shawn Marion or Danny Granger in his prime beside we get Luke Ridnour who will be a great backup for Lowry.

  3. #203
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Sure seems like you've already made up your mind and I wasted pixels in response so you could further purse your argument against any or all counter arguments.

    Why has Denver and Orlando played out so publicly? Carmelo and no one in Denver publicly addressed the situation and it has been the same in Orlando. Who initiated it? Come on, seriously? Really? Who wanted out of Denver and who wants out of Orlando? Who do you think initiated it all?

    This is an old lockout topic but players are employees. It is not their right to sabotage the company. If management chooses a course of action then one would have to assume they are doing so in what they perceive to be in the best interests of the company. You might not agree but you aren't getting paid to agree or make the decision in the first place.

    Maybe you are too young to remember but years ago Frank Gifford and Kathy Lee-Gifford fought rumours published in the National Enquirer that he had been unfaithful. The Gifford's fought back saying it was not true. The Enquirer said, "Umm, yeah they are and if you don't fess up we'll prove it." The Gifford's called them out again. Next issue: photos of Frankie at the local hour rate motel with a huge tittied blonde. The story then become national news - not just tabloid fodder - and the Gifford's look pretty silly. Moral of the story: with controversy on the horizon, deal with it on your own terms publicly before someone else is able to spin it to your detriment.
    Did you really think creating a double standard would change my opinion on the subject? Your right that you wasted pixels if you did.

  4. #204
    Raptors Republic Rookie pillowmint's Avatar
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    Quote tenforthewin wrote: View Post
    Toronto trade Calderon + James Johnson + Ed Davis to the Wolves for Derrick Williams + Luke Ridnour

    Derrick Williams has lost its favorite for the Wolves since they just acquired Batum who will be starting for them. We get an unpolished star in the making player in Derrick Williams who could turn to be a poor man's Shawn Marion or Danny Granger in his prime beside we get Luke Ridnour who will be a great backup for Lowry.
    I would do this in a heartbeat, sadly the Wolves would not. They're not interested in taking back more salary, especially while they're trying to sign Batum. Wouldn't happen, but like I said...wish it did!
    i8theball.com it's a website...about, you know....basketball.

  5. #205
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Did you really think creating a double standard would change my opinion on the subject? Your right that you wasted pixels if you did.
    Game. Set. Match. - lol


    Hopefully more open minded readers can gain possible insight whether they agree or not. It seems the lesson D12 and Melo have failed to learn may also be applicable in this situation.

  6. #206
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Colangelo simply confirmed what was already out there: Jose was less than happy that a new starter was acquired. BC was NOT the first one to put that idea out there. There was already talk of him "welcoming a trade" well before that BC interview.

    Not a big deal/blown out of proportion.
    +1

    Imagine if Carmelo or Dwight had just said, "I would not object to a trade." when asked direct questions. Of course, they also want to pick the team and the terms in which they are traded there as well but that is another story.

  7. #207
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    +1

    Imagine if Carmelo or Dwight had just said, "I would not object to a trade." when asked direct questions. Of course, they also want to pick the team and the terms in which they are traded there as well but that is another story.

    Am I one of the few people that has an opinion, and when one has an opinion different than mine I consider their argument, check their facts, and approach it from the view of...what if they are right?...even if I land back on my own now stronger more informed opinion. Check the egos at the door people.

    Players like Carmelo, Howard, Bosh etc....are ruining the game with their prima donna bullshit acts.

    GMs...if your superstar won't immediately sign an extension...follow the Utah/Denver route and milk another team for all their worth. Denver is actually a better team now without Carmelo

  8. #208
    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote pillowmint wrote: View Post
    I would do this in a heartbeat, sadly the Wolves would not. They're not interested in taking back more salary, especially while they're trying to sign Batum. Wouldn't happen, but like I said...wish it did!
    Calderon is an expiring contract though, and they do need a capable big man off the bench behind K. Love, and James Johnson would back-up Batum.

    I could see them pulling this off, since they are in a win now mode, Calderon, JJ, and Ed D. could all be capable contributors off the bench for Minnesota. It works for Minnesota quite nicely if I may..

    Minnesota:
    PG - Ricky Rubio/Barea*/Calderon
    SG - Barea*/Johnson
    SF - Batum/Budinger/Johnson*
    PF - Love/Davis/Johnson*
    C - Pekovic

    Toronto:
    PG - Lowry/Ridnour/Uzoh
    SG - Derozan/Ross/Anderson
    SF - Fields/D. Williams/Kleiza
    PF - Bargnani/A. Johnson
    C - Valanciunas/Gray/Magloire

  9. #209
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Am I one of the few people that has an opinion, and when one has an opinion different than mine I consider their argument, check their facts, and approach it from the view of...what if they are right?...even if I land back on my own now stronger more informed opinion. Check the egos at the door people.

    Players like Carmelo, Howard, Bosh etc....are ruining the game with their prima donna bullshit acts.

    GMs...if your superstar won't immediately sign an extension...follow the Utah/Denver route and milk another team for all their worth. Denver is actually a better team now without Carmelo
    I would like to think I take that approach.

    I believe you were the one who made me change my tune on AI.

  10. #210
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote tenforthewin wrote: View Post
    Toronto trade Calderon + James Johnson + Ed Davis to the Wolves for Derrick Williams + Luke Ridnour

    Derrick Williams has lost its favorite for the Wolves since they just acquired Batum who will be starting for them. We get an unpolished star in the making player in Derrick Williams who could turn to be a poor man's Shawn Marion or Danny Granger in his prime beside we get Luke Ridnour who will be a great backup for Lowry.
    It's funny that you brought that up, because I posted a trade idea in the trade forum similar to that, which sent Davis and JJ to Minny, while flipping Calderon and Williams to Philly, to end up with Toronto acquiring Iguodala and Ridnour.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Sat Jul 14th, 2012 at 02:17 PM.

  11. #211
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Game. Set. Match. - lol


    Hopefully more open minded readers can gain possible insight whether they agree or not. It seems the lesson D12 and Melo have failed to learn may also be applicable in this situation.
    its interesting that a individual who has openly stated their very high support of BC in the past, argues with a list of logical fallacies (appeal to authority, anecdotal fallacy etc), and uses a double standard about who is right when the players and GMs use the media is hoping for 'open mindedness'.

    We have seen many times over the years the issues that come from these public proclomation by players and GMs. They can turn into media battles, then can become distractions and they can become bigger issues. To me it doesn't matter who starts it, neither side should be using a public forum for these issues. No matter how mild it may be. If Colangelo wants to talk about how Jose wasn't happy and wanted to be traded after the fact to explain the trade, by all means. But there is no reason to bring it up, especially when not even asked about it.

    And for the life of me I fail to see how we can use Dwight Howard and Carmelo Anthony as examples and proceed to say that its a good idea for GMs to do it. If anything they are prime examples of the problems with using the public forum for their internal issues, on both sides.

    And just for clarity, Jose's displeasure was brought up by Colangelo before Jose's agent addressed the media about it. He was questioned because of Colangelo's statement. Not the other way around.

  12. #212
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    There is no advantage to BC publicly saying Jose was unhappy and wanted to be traded. It creates a sellers market and every team in the league will low ball us now...i.e. what we did for Lowry. I'd like to see proof BC jumped first because it first came to my attention that Jose was unhappy and would be seeking a trade though twitter and his agent.

    Dwight and Carmelo are the perfect example of using the media to engineer a trade to a specific team. It is a HORRIBLE way to do things.

    A GM saying Jose has asked us to be traded...is an acknowledgement of fact, with no attempt to create a media shit storm...

    I don't see how you don't see a difference here

  13. #213
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I do recall the media asking Casey directly how Jose felt after the Nash/Lowry frenzy. Casey had indicated that he called Jose directly and that he indicated he was not happy.. but indicated that a competitor like Jose should give an answer like that. And that he wasn't sure who would start between Jose and Lowry next year, but would like to have Jose be a part of the team.

    With regards to BC, I believe it was a similar line of questioning. BC is actually very careful with what he says to the media. It's actually super annoying. I don't believe Bryan said anything without having to answer a question from the media directly about it. And his answers were fairly obvious. Of course Jose would be unhappy. We just went out and targeted two PG's that would be replacing him as a starter.

    It was Jose's agent that indicated on twitter that Jose would like to be traded after the fact.

    At least that's what I remember from all the chaos that was free agency.

  14. #214
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    its interesting that a individual who has openly stated their very high support of BC in the past, argues with a list of logical fallacies (appeal to authority, anecdotal fallacy etc), and uses a double standard about who is right when the players and GMs use the media is hoping for 'open mindedness'.

    We have seen many times over the years the issues that come from these public proclomation by players and GMs. They can turn into media battles, then can become distractions and they can become bigger issues. To me it doesn't matter who starts it, neither side should be using a public forum for these issues. No matter how mild it may be. If Colangelo wants to talk about how Jose wasn't happy and wanted to be traded after the fact to explain the trade, by all means. But there is no reason to bring it up, especially when not even asked about it.

    And for the life of me I fail to see how we can use Dwight Howard and Carmelo Anthony as examples and proceed to say that its a good idea for GMs to do it. If anything they are prime examples of the problems with using the public forum for their internal issues, on both sides.

    And just for clarity, Jose's displeasure was brought up by Colangelo before Jose's agent addressed the media about it. He was questioned because of Colangelo's statement. Not the other way around.

    What is the double standard? Players and GM's are not equals in an organization, I'm sorry. Players are the employees and GM's are management (GM = General Manager) - and it just so happens BC is also president of basketball operations.


    BC brought it up because, and this is an assumption on my part, is because it is an issue that was going to be addressed and speculated on by media and fans. This is the 3rd time he has been through the starting PG controversy (Calderon/TJ, Calderon/Jack, now Calderon/Lowry) that were largely initiated by the media the first 2 go-rounds. Do you really think he has forgotten the previous 2 'controversies'?


    I apologize if my example of the Gifford's did not illustrate the problem that can arise when you take an issue that is going to be publicly known and speculated upon very soon and bullsh!t it. What was BC going to say: "Umm, yeah, Jose is loving the fact we have brought in a better and younger PG to play a style of basketball that is better suited to Kyle's abilities as well." How long would it have taken the media and fans to rip him a new one for the bullsh!t?


    Clearly, for the life of you, your preconceived notions are not allowing you to see the difference between what Carmelo/Dwight failed to do, what BC has done, what Calderon's agent has done, and what I am saying. Let me slow it down a bit:

    Carmelo & Dwight = games, gossip, rumour spreading; no public declarations of intent or desire; backlash from media/fans due to games/drama

    Colangelo & agent = telling the situation like it is; working together to find a amicable solution; honest/truthful statements to media; no backlash from media/fans (well except 1 fan it seems) due to no games/drama.


    As for who brought it up: who cares? Really. Forget I've supported BC in the past. Forget about other players current and former situations. The reality is both parties are looking for a clean break in a manner that works for all. Colangelo said nothing that discredited Jose as a person or a player. Calderon's agent said nothing that discredits BC or Toronto as a person/GM or franchise. Both parties have been honest about their intentions. In terms of trade value, BC has nothing to hide or trade value to protect because it is pretty clear there are now 2 starting calibre PGs on the roster and 1 of those PGs has been on the trade market for 3 years.


    The only drama I'm seeing in this situation is being created in this thread.

  15. #215
    Raptors Republic Rookie pillowmint's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Calderon is an expiring contract though, and they do need a capable big man off the bench behind K. Love, and James Johnson would back-up Batum.

    I could see them pulling this off, since they are in a win now mode, Calderon, JJ, and Ed D. could all be capable contributors off the bench for Minnesota. It works for Minnesota quite nicely if I may..

    Minnesota:
    PG - Ricky Rubio/Barea*/Calderon
    SG - Barea*/Johnson
    SF - Batum/Budinger/Johnson*
    PF - Love/Davis/Johnson*
    C - Pekovic

    Toronto:
    PG - Lowry/Ridnour/Uzoh
    SG - Derozan/Ross/Anderson
    SF - Fields/D. Williams/Kleiza
    PF - Bargnani/A. Johnson
    C - Valanciunas/Gray/Magloire
    Sorry maybe I wasn't being clear, it's a salary cap thing, not a player contract thing. Jose, Love, and Batum would be almost $40 million for just three players, no way the Wolves would pay that. It's exactly why they've amnestied Darko and waived Martell, they need all the space they can get just to be able to sign Batum. So I don't think they'd want to take back more salary at this time, I could be wrong, but I think that's their intention.

    Cheers
    i8theball.com it's a website...about, you know....basketball.

  16. #216
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    In my opinion looking around the league the team I like the most as a trade partner is New Orleans.

    They will have a little bit of cap space if the numbers from ShamSports.com are correct.

    They will also have the $5.1M nonguaranteed contract of Brad Miller of which only $800k is guaranteed (he has already said he is retiring).

    Most importantly they have Greivis Vasquez as a great backup PG (and a decent starter).

    There has been talk of NO using Austin Rivers as a PG in the future. Does this mean they don't have confident in Vasquez long term? Vasquez's shot is not great from 3 and a PG with good shooting would likely be useful with a SG such as Eric Gordon who can handle, create, and dish. Using Rivers as first guard off the bench would allow him to develop some PG skills with Gordon and play to his scoring ability with Calderon.

    With Calderon's contract expiring, the Hornets will hit next seasons with the $13.7M hold from Lewis' contract and $10.5M from Jose's coming off the books.


    This is my perspective though. The Hornets may have made the Jack trade with every intention of making Vasquez their starting PG and might laugh hysterically at this trade idea. However NOH also lacks depth at PF/C with just Davis, Anderson, and Smith next season on the current roster and also at SF with just Aminu and Darius Miller. Maybe the inclusion Ed Davis or James Johnson (reunion with Aminu) could be incentive.

    Ignore the comment stating why the trade would fail, I think the machine needs to be updated.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7nglly8

    Again, ignore comment, I think the Hornets would have enough cap space and outgoing salary to make. Raps could also send $$ to NOH. If Andersen's skills or history are a red flag, buy him out.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=74yrfml
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Jul 14th, 2012 at 08:50 PM.

  17. #217
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    And just for clarity, Jose's displeasure was brought up by Colangelo before Jose's agent addressed the media about it. He was questioned because of Colangelo's statement. Not the other way around.
    No, it wasn't brought up by Colangelo, it was volunteered by Jose's agent almost immediately after the Lowry trade. You are mistaken on the timing.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  18. #218
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I apologize if my example of the Gifford's did not illustrate the problem that can arise when you take an issue that is going to be publicly known and speculated upon very soon and bullsh!t it. What was BC going to say: "Umm, yeah, Jose is loving the fact we have brought in a better and younger PG to play a style of basketball that is better suited to Kyle's abilities as well." How long would it have taken the media and fans to rip him a new one for the bullsh!t?


    Clearly, for the life of you, your preconceived notions are not allowing you to see the difference between what Carmelo/Dwight failed to do, what BC has done, what Calderon's agent has done, and what I am saying. Let me slow it down a bit:

    Carmelo & Dwight = games, gossip, rumour spreading; no public declarations of intent or desire; backlash from media/fans due to games/drama

    Colangelo & agent = telling the situation like it is; working together to find a amicable solution; honest/truthful statements to media; no backlash from media/fans (well except 1 fan it seems) due to no games/drama.


    As for who brought it up: who cares? Really. Forget I've supported BC in the past. Forget about other players current and former situations. The reality is both parties are looking for a clean break in a manner that works for all. Colangelo said nothing that discredited Jose as a person or a player. Calderon's agent said nothing that discredits BC or Toronto as a person/GM or franchise. Both parties have been honest about their intentions. In terms of trade value, BC has nothing to hide or trade value to protect because it is pretty clear there are now 2 starting calibre PGs on the roster and 1 of those PGs has been on the trade market for 3 years.


    The only drama I'm seeing in this situation is being created in this thread.
    That's a little unfair to compare the 2 situations, because Carmelo and Dwight mean WAY more to their teams than Calderon does. If Dwight and Carmelo had played it low key and 'played the year out', there would still be mega stories about them and what would happen (see LeBron and Bosh). Carmelo and Dwight don't have the 'luxury' of having to be straight because no matter what they would do, there still would be a backlash. If Calderon had acted like Carmelo or Dwight, no one would really care.

    And I also dispute your notion about players being 'employees' and GMs being more important. I think what happened in Orlando, where the owners did everything short of offering their firstborn to Howard and they fired their coach and GM, tells you that star players rule the league (as they should, they are the ones making money for the owners)

  19. #219
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    No, it wasn't brought up by Colangelo, it was volunteered by Jose's agent almost immediately after the Lowry trade. You are mistaken on the timing.
    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/81...-welcome-trade

    That was reported Thursday July 12th.

    Colangelo made the statement on Wednesday July 11th

    http://blogs.thescore.com/raptorblog...-and-calderon/

    I have yet to find anything prior to Colangelo's statement about Jose being unhappy or wanting a trade. Could you link it please.

  20. #220
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/81...-welcome-trade

    That was reported Thursday July 12th.

    Colangelo made the statement on Wednesday July 11th

    http://blogs.thescore.com/raptorblog...-and-calderon/

    I have yet to find anything prior to Colangelo's statement about Jose being unhappy or wanting a trade. Could you link it please.
    Who cares? Let it go. The thread is about Calderon on the trading block, not the merits of public vs private trade requests. All that matters is that all signs point to Calderon's time in Toronto being done and wondering what the Raps might get in return. Enough of this 'he said, she said' crap.

    The fact of the matter is that the writing's been on the wall ever since the very public failed trade with Charlotte two years ago. Since then there's been no secret that Calderon's days in Toronto were numbered. I would bet my left nut that every GM in the league already knew the situation long before either side (BC or Calderon's people) went public, and that's really all that matters. If you think any GM out there found out via public disclosure that Calderon was on the trade block, you're incredibly naive.

    Therefore, this entire argument/debate is a completely moot point. Let it go... please!

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