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Thread: Everything Terrence Ross

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    would rather keep it public to discourage the sort of passive racism drunkmunky's just displayed amongst the community.

    we don't need to have a whole conversation about it anyways. just take it down or provide the whole thing in context so that you don't offend anyone with the most loaded and hurtful word in the english language, or discourage other ppl from participating on the forums.
    I'm not going to do anything. Nobody has had a problem with it until you came around and it's been my sig for like two years.

    I'm allowed to have an opinion, just like you.
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    Alright, the conversation up top ends now.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    T-Ross needs to step it up and play with a purpose. He was like a deer in headlights during summer league.

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    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ete-in-the-nba

    Casey says Ross has the most potential on the team. He definitely has the skills he can shoot and is crazy athletic really who is as athletic as Ross right now?

    Casey saying this even if he doesnt exactly mean it should (hopefully) bring up Ross's spirits.

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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ete-in-the-nba

    Casey says Ross has the most potential on the team. He definitely has the skills he can shoot and is crazy athletic really who is as athletic as Ross right now?

    Casey saying this even if he doesnt exactly mean it should (hopefully) bring up Ross's spirits.
    The dunk contest should have brought up his spirits. Being drafted so high after being mocked much lower should have brought up his spirits.

    All I care from Ross now, is whether he can continue to improve, and challenge DeRozan for that 2-guard spot, the potential is undeniable - everyone knows that this kid has a high ceiling.

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    Quote ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
    The dunk contest should have brought up his spirits. Being drafted so high after being mocked much lower should have brought up his spirits.

    All I care from Ross now, is whether he can continue to improve, and challenge DeRozan for that 2-guard spot, the potential is undeniable - everyone knows that this kid has a high ceiling.
    I think our coaching staff should focus on trying to get him to master the 3pt shot and become a lockdown defender. The problem with this team is that we always try to make players something they are not. The goal should be to maximize guys' talents and skillsets. Ross is a fluid and quick athlete who shot the 3 well in college. He needs to become exceptional in those two areas. Forget isolations and all that other stuff, that's not what he was drafted for. If we try to develop him into that kind of player he will be a bust I guarantee it.

    Honestly right now the goal for Ross should be to become a more athletic version of Martell Webster/Wesley Matthews. I'd be ecstatic with that. Hit the 3 at a 40%+ clip, lock down your man defensively, grab 5 boards, and occasionally explode for 20+ points, but consistently give your team an efficient 10-15 points a night.

    Part of the reason why basically every player who joins the Spurs plays better is because they put them in perfect roles. Do you see the Spurs asking Kawhi Leonard to create for himself? No. They realize he has limited range so they tell him to camp out in the corners and use his athleticism to cut to the rim for easy baskets or offensive rebounds, as well as play excellent defense. That is how you maximize your players' talents.

    I'm sure if a team with better player development had taken Andrea, he would've developed into one of the best stretch 4s in the NBA. The problem arises when you try to take a SF/PF, tell him to bulk up and play him completely out of position (at center).
    Last edited by Xixak; Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 at 06:19 PM.

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  9. #167
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    What?

    Sorry dude, but I'm not on board with your post. The guy is a 2 guard, period. Nobody is forcing him to do anything he in't supposed to be doing. Thats just not right.

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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    What?

    Sorry dude, but I'm not on board with your post. The guy is a 2 guard, period. Nobody is forcing him to do anything he in't supposed to be doing. Thats just not right.
    I'm assuming you're talking to me. I wasn't aware that all 2-guards had to have the same playing style. If you watched summer league this year or even any of the games last year where Ross got run, he's asked to play on-ball quite a lot. This makes no sense given his skillset. He's not a good ball-handler, he shies away from contact and as a result is very ineffective as an isolation/slasher type of player.

    Ross' strengths lie in shooting the ball, lateral quickness and defense. The Raptors staff should be trying to maximize these areas of his game, instead of trying to make him a jack of all trades (which will result in him busting out of the league). Ross should be used almost exclusively off-ball as a 3+D player, similarly to how Danny Green is used in San Antonio or the other two guys I mentioned, Wesley Matthews and Martell Webster. Obviously, you'd rather get more out of the #8 pick, but it's pretty clear that Ross isn't going to be some dynamic, isolation type player... it's not his game and never has been (not even in college, watch some of his games).

    The thing is Ross is more athletic than those 3 guys I mentioned, so he has the potential to be better than all of them in the same role. It would be awesome to have him dropping around 15 points, playing great d and hitting 2-3 threes a night off the bench. He's also very effective on fast breaks.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Ross' strengths lie in shooting the ball, lateral quickness and defense. The Raptors staff should be trying to maximize these areas of his game, instead of trying to make him a jack of all trades (which will result in him busting out of the league). Ross should be used almost exclusively off-ball as a 3+D player, similarly to how Danny Green is used in San Antonio or the other two guys I mentioned, Wesley Matthews and Martell Webster. Obviously, you'd rather get more out of the #8 pick, but it's pretty clear that Ross isn't going to be some dynamic, isolation type player...
    Nailed it with this part.

    I would like it but I'm on my phone.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Part of the reason why basically every player who joins the Spurs plays better is because they put them in perfect roles. Do you see the Spurs asking Kawhi Leonard to create for himself? No. They realize he has limited range so they tell him to camp out in the corners and use his athleticism to cut to the rim for easy baskets or offensive rebounds, as well as play excellent defense. That is how you maximize your players' talents.
    I don't remember the player, and can't be bothered to try to source it, (so put as much faith in its validity as you like) but I remember an NBA player saying something along the lines of "Every other team I played for always focused on what they wanted me to improve, it was always, your good at this and this, now you just need to work on these other things. The spurs were the only organization that focused on what I could do, not what they wanted me to do."

    I've obviously paraphrased the above, and although I did end up trying to search for the original quote, I couldn't find it. Neverless it does support Xixak's premise that the spurs try to get players to specialize in what they are good at as opposed to focusing on them expanding their game, as an integral part of the ethos of their program.

    To what extent this ethos can be carried over to raptors development is an interesting idea in terms of development of young players. I would include demar in that last as well.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Oh good lord. You guys like ot make things so much more complicated than they are. He's a basketball player. He plays the 2 position which isn't a hard position really, none of them are. First and foremost you have to learn the game of basketball, fundamentally, then yo need to become aggressive and stay active, always.

    Suggesting that by asking Ross to be a complete player, which, as a starting 2 or 3 guard is basically par for the course, is hardly setting him up to be a bust. If the guy can't do the things he's been asked, he simply isn't that good. It has nothing to do with "style", "style" is a media creation, it isn't a basketball term, never has been. It's about learning to do the small things that keep you on the floor, and its about doing the things you are there to do on a larger scale. If you are supposed to take shots, hit shots, if you are supposed to use your athleticism to create motion going toward the rim, do so. If you are unable or unwilling to do these things, you aren't doing your job.

    I often feel like guys become "fans" of players and then use a little too much bias or emotion when they really need to be facing the reality that is before them. The Toronto Raptors, the coach, Ross's fellow players, none are responsible for he poor performance. Thats ALL on him. If you want to be truly honest, when he was finally making some progress, and saw fatigue starting to maybe affect that progress during mid season last year, Ross had a decision to make. Take 4 days off, rest, recharge and refocus on the good things he was doing to attain the nice level he had going, or, take the offer to fly to the all star game, party, get attention and accolades for shit he has yet to do, and dunk basketballs. Thats who Terrance Ross is so far. Thats the guy you're defending.

    This Casey was on board with that decision? HA!!!!!! HAHAH!!!! Fuck no. And you can draw a pretty straight line attaching his decline in play, and his subsequent benching directly after.

    Call it what it is man, stop making excuses for guys who don't deserve um. Terrence Ross needs to work his ass off to win back whatever he lost last year, its on him to succeed, no the coaches to hide him in little corner where he can be a journeyman as a #8 pick. Fuck that man.

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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    ...the spurs try to get players to specialize in what they are good at as opposed to focusing on them expanding their game, as an integral part of the ethos of their program.

    To what extent this ethos can be carried over to raptors development is an interesting idea in terms of development of young players. I would include demar in that last as well.
    Just finished reading a book called "The 80/20 Individual." The whole premise of the book is that you get 80% of your results from 20% of your effort (the Pareto principle) therefore you should spend more time focusing on the 20% that represents an obvious strength and emphasize and enhance that.

    I expect that the problem in basketball is that coaches like to run particular systems, as opposed to designing systems around the assets they have. The Spurs, and a few other teams, seem to seek out role players that can work within their already successful systems.

    When I think of role players I always think of Steve Kerr and Bill Wennington on the Bulls. Although Kerr was a great three point shooter ( and won the 3pt competition on all-star weekend a couple of times I think) the Raps had Kapono, who also won, and they couldn't use him effectively. They did use Rasho Nesterovic effectively, another great role player, but I think that was a lot easier because he didn't have any standout talent.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I'm assuming you're talking to me. I wasn't aware that all 2-guards had to have the same playing style. If you watched summer league this year or even any of the games last year where Ross got run, he's asked to play on-ball quite a lot. This makes no sense given his skillset. He's not a good ball-handler, he shies away from contact and as a result is very ineffective as an isolation/slasher type of player.

    Ross' strengths lie in shooting the ball, lateral quickness and defense. The Raptors staff should be trying to maximize these areas of his game, instead of trying to make him a jack of all trades (which will result in him busting out of the league). Ross should be used almost exclusively off-ball as a 3+D player, similarly to how Danny Green is used in San Antonio or the other two guys I mentioned, Wesley Matthews and Martell Webster. Obviously, you'd rather get more out of the #8 pick, but it's pretty clear that Ross isn't going to be some dynamic, isolation type player... it's not his game and never has been (not even in college, watch some of his games).

    The thing is Ross is more athletic than those 3 guys I mentioned, so he has the potential to be better than all of them in the same role. It would be awesome to have him dropping around 15 points, playing great d and hitting 2-3 threes a night off the bench. He's also very effective on fast breaks.
    This is my beef with Casey's high school offensive sets.

    The only difference between Ross and DD when they play is Ross curls off multiple screens for a 3 whereas DD goes for a long 2.

    Watching Ross play last year I found the times he was most successful was from punch and kick/north-south style basketball versus set up on silver platter/east-west style.

    Interesting enough, Lowry is most successful punch and kick as well.
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    I'd love to see Ross developed into the shutdown guy. Assuming he's on the bench group with Landry Fields, the two of them should guard the 2 best perimeter players. If that's a PG, I'd want Ross' athleticism over Fields' smarts.

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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Just finished reading a book called "The 80/20 Individual." The whole premise of the book is that you get 80% of your results from 20% of your effort (the Pareto principle) therefore you should spend more time focusing on the 20% that represents an obvious strength and emphasize and enhance that.

    I expect that the problem in basketball is that coaches like to run particular systems, as opposed to designing systems around the assets they have. The Spurs, and a few other teams, seem to seek out role players that can work within their already successful systems.

    When I think of role players I always think of Steve Kerr and Bill Wennington on the Bulls. Although Kerr was a great three point shooter ( and won the 3pt competition on all-star weekend a couple of times I think) the Raps had Kapono, who also won, and they couldn't use him effectively. They did use Rasho Nesterovic effectively, another great role player, but I think that was a lot easier because he didn't have any standout talent.

    Sounds like an interesting book, and I agree, it's definitely about using guys effectively, but from the quote (which hopefully, I am remembering correctly) it also seemed (at least for the player who was quoted) that the spurs' philosophy also had an psychological effect, beyond just using guys efficiently/effectively. Even though everyone (management/coaches/players) is secondary to the system, the spurs emphasized that the players were already good enough, and that they just had to continue doing what they were already doing (on the macro level, everyone knows pop's not afraid to take people to task), whereas other orgs were always focusing on the players negatives, and emphasizing the players need to get better.

    This positive-reinforcement philosophy, is not something you would intuitively think would be a difference maker to professional athletes, but hey, who really knows!
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    All of this is great, but lets not forget the topic. The topic here is Terrence Ross and his development. You can put players, ONE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE, in any position you feel fit in order to see them realize maximum potential as it pertains to the smooth operation of your team on the floor. Sure hing. BUT, were talking here about a player that has the potential to either be great, or simply never realize potential. This is simply NOT a SA scenario where they pick and choose players for certain skillsets them build a balanced team....and trust, thts what they do, it isnt as if they have a grab bag and have to asses, those players arent there by accident. This is more about developing a very raw player.

    I don't think being asked to play proper Basketball, very BASIC basketball, was such a tall order, nor was it unfair or a misuse of resources. Sometime guys, players just don't come through.

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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Oh good lord. You guys like ot make things so much more complicated than they are. He's a basketball player. He plays the 2 position which isn't a hard position really, none of them are. First and foremost you have to learn the game of basketball, fundamentally, then yo need to become aggressive and stay active, always.

    Suggesting that by asking Ross to be a complete player, which, as a starting 2 or 3 guard is basically par for the course, is hardly setting him up to be a bust. If the guy can't do the things he's been asked, he simply isn't that good. It has nothing to do with "style", "style" is a media creation, it isn't a basketball term, never has been. It's about learning to do the small things that keep you on the floor, and its about doing the things you are there to do on a larger scale. If you are supposed to take shots, hit shots, if you are supposed to use your athleticism to create motion going toward the rim, do so. If you are unable or unwilling to do these things, you aren't doing your job.
    Asking a guy with a 3+D skillset to be an isolation type of player is most definitely going to result in him being a bust or damn close to it. Look at how useless Danny Green was when the Heat started chasing him off the arc and forcing him to dribble the ball. Those "small things" that you're referring to would be Ross hitting threes, hustling, finishing fast breaks and playing defense; if he can do that he's going to get minutes and he's going to play over a decade in the league. Asking him to become a James Harden-esque jack of all trades is just asking for failure.

    I often feel like guys become "fans" of players and then use a little too much bias or emotion when they really need to be facing the reality that is before them. The Toronto Raptors, the coach, Ross's fellow players, none are responsible for he poor performance. Thats ALL on him. If you want to be truly honest, when he was finally making some progress, and saw fatigue starting to maybe affect that progress during mid season last year, Ross had a decision to make. Take 4 days off, rest, recharge and refocus on the good things he was doing to attain the nice level he had going, or, take the offer to fly to the all star game, party, get attention and accolades for shit he has yet to do, and dunk basketballs. Thats who Terrance Ross is so far. Thats the guy you're defending.
    I'm not a Ross fan, I was just giving an outline for how I think he can be successful (by focussing on his strengths, 3 and D). I'm not even defending him, I almost broke my TV when we made that pick. I had Drummond, Rivers, Lamb in that order he wasn't even on my radar.

    This Casey was on board with that decision? HA!!!!!! HAHAH!!!! Fuck no. And you can draw a pretty straight line attaching his decline in play, and his subsequent benching directly after.
    What decision? The decision to pick Ross?

    Call it what it is man, stop making excuses for guys who don't deserve um. Terrence Ross needs to work his ass off to win back whatever he lost last year, its on him to succeed, no the coaches to hide him in little corner where he can be a journeyman as a #8 pick. Fuck that man.
    I'm not making excuses for him. Obviously 33% from 3 isn't really acceptable in a 3+D role. All I'm saying is he and the coaching staff need to work to maximize his abilities as a shooter and a defensive player. Combine that with his athleticism and you can create a guy that shoots 40% from 3, plays lockdown defense and gives you instant offense off the bench (or maybe even as a starter).

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    to be honest calling him a 3 and D player is an insult imo, hes too freaky an athlete to simply camp behind the 3 point line all game. He needs to work on his game IQ of when to take his shot and when to drive or one bounce pull ups. He needs to read what the defense gives him better.

    All training camp he needs to follow Rudy and DeMar and learn some stuff from them hes got 2 talented wings playing with him no reason he cant get better look for him to be a factor mid season.

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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    to be honest calling him a 3 and D player is an insult imo, hes too freaky an athlete to simply camp behind the 3 point line all game. He needs to work on his game IQ of when to take his shot and when to drive or one bounce pull ups. He needs to read what the defense gives him better.

    All training camp he needs to follow Rudy and DeMar and learn some stuff from them hes got 2 talented wings playing with him no reason he cant get better look for him to be a factor mid season.
    I think he can also be useful as a cutter, straight line driver and on the fast break because of his athleticism. He should never be asked to create for himself though. Honestly, Ross should focus on becoming elite as a shooter and defender, if he can do that, he can play big minutes effectively.

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    Ok.

    Your mistake, I believe, is in assuming that Ross has even touched his actual potential....I'm fairly confident he hasn't. The problem is that before they can do ANYTHING with him he has to play proper basketball, consistently. He continues to fail at this. Nobody wants him to go, or bust, or whatever....just get his head out of his ass and get better.

    As for the decision..... I was talking about Ross and his horrible decision to go to allstar weekend instead of resetting, recharging and getting his shit straight.

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