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Thread: OFFICIAL: James Johnson sent to Kings for 2nd Rounder

  1. #81
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote pillowmint wrote: View Post
    What would JJ in a trade be worth to you? What would you need to see happen in order to trade JJ. Or do you think his value to the Raps is untradable? I'd like to know, and I promise it isn't a judgement.
    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    This was his value (2nd rounder) around the league. There's really no need to analyze further.
    Keeping in mind we traded a Late First Rounder to acquire him ... and his Value did NOT get worse since acquiring him; I do not buy that the most we could get for him for a Future 2nd Rounder.

    The ~$3M has to be what did it. There has to be something else.
    I refuse to believe that BC would give up a First Rounder only to receive a Second Rounder for it. Thats very unBC like.
    Last edited by Joey; Mon Jul 16th, 2012 at 11:28 AM.
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  2. #82
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Quick question:

    What if there is no "bigger deal"? What if Colangelo has no aces up his sleeve or this move is not part of a bigger picture or series of acquisitions?

    What if it is simply the Raps trading away J.Johnson for a 2nd round pick?

    If it is exactly what it is, is this a bad trade?
    The alternative is playing Johnson in garbage time, thus reducing his value even more, and then trading him for some pocket lint come February.

    Fields is the better overall player (and now has a contract that warrants playing him), and Kleiza seems to be rounding into his pre-injury form (i.e. the guy Colangelo envisioned when first signing him).

    Where was the space for Johnson?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  3. #83
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    That's just it, when we compare Johnson to other Raptor players (who aren't exactly standouts themselves), he comes across as as serviceable player.

    But instead, we should be comparing Johnson to starters on good teams.

    We wouldn't be able to get much for Amir/Gray either, and I'd be very surprised if even Calderon nets us anything worthwhile.

    This seems to a rude awakening for us Raptor fans. We over-achieved quite a bit last season, but the individual parts have very little value.
    That's the problem with this team. You need elite talent to win consistently and the Raps don't have it.

    As it's an organization, it is hard to point out one dude, but since Colangelo has been here he has not drafted, traded for or signed a player approaching all-star status let alone obatin one that is an actual all-star or elite type player.

    Will that change with the acquisition of Lowry and JV? Perhaps, however unless he can make those type of moves (ideal way is thru the draft imo) this team will have difficulty moving up in the conference and would indicate to me that BC is well-overpaid based on the results of the teams he has personally assembled.

    Forget the JJ's and Landry Fields of the world. BC needs to find a way to get upper level talent, othrewise the mediocrity mill will continue to churn away.

  4. #84
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    I'm in on the DC era. But when you take the only SF capable of playing a minute in the NBA and piss him off to the point that he needs to be traded, that's an issue. I don't have a problem with this incident in isolation, but we're not in a position where the coach can ship out talent due to personal disputes. Just something to keep an eye on.

    And hey that RFA that we overpaided by 10 mil can play out of position right? What a great plan!

  5. #85
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Keeping in mind we traded a Late First Rounder to acquire him ... and his Value did NOT get worse since acquiring him; I do not buy that the most we could get for him for a Future 2nd Rounder.

    The ~$3M has to be what did it. There has to be something else.
    I refuse to believe that BC would admit defeat on this trade. he gave up a First Rounder, only to receive a Second Rounder? Thats very unBC like.
    Aren't we splitting hairs just a tad trying to determine the difference in value between a 27th pick, and a 30-37th pick (i.e. where ever Sacramento ends up)?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  6. #86
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    The alternative is playing Johnson in garbage time, thus reducing his value even more, and then trading him for some pocket lint come February.
    No such thing as "Lower Value than a Future 2nd Round Pick". Thats the Lowest of the Low.
    In Masai we Trust.

  7. #87
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Keeping in mind we traded a Late First Rounder to acquire him ... and his Value did NOT get worse since acquiring him; I find this hard to believe.
    How did his value "not get worse"? Other than the fact it was rock-bottom to begin with, I suppose you could make the argument that his value to the Raptors may have increased -- but then it dropped again after the thing with Casey. Value changes for a lot of reasons, and is often different inside and outside an organization, as well.

    I have no problem with the idea that JJ was only worth a 2nd rounder to other teams at this point in time -- and remember, to Toronto, that value is a 2nd-rounder + 2.8M in spending money.

    I'm never sure what fans are thinking when they suspect they know more about a player's value around the league than GMs do.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Quick question:

    What if there is no "bigger deal"? What if Colangelo has no aces up his sleeve or this move is not part of a bigger picture or series of acquisitions?

    What if it is simply the Raps trading away J.Johnson for a 2nd round pick?

    If it is exactly what it is, is this a bad trade?
    IMO, JJ is not necessary and wouldn't improve a Fields / Kleiza rotation at the 3 position. Beyond that, the Raptors' coach and GM obviously didn't like JJ as much, and much of that might have been related to his attitude and fit within the team culture. I'm giving Casey the benefit of the doubt on this one. I am sure that Colangelo got as good a return as possible in trading him. So, no, I don't think this is a "bad trade". It was a necessary trade.

  9. #89
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Keeping in mind we traded a Late First Rounder to acquire him ... and his Value did NOT get worse since acquiring him; I do not buy that the most we could get for him for a Future 2nd Rounder.

    The ~$3M has to be what did it. There has to be something else.
    I refuse to believe that BC would give up a First Rounder only to receive a Second Rounder for it. Thats very unBC like.
    BC traded the #29 pick for JJ; at the time, most people were furious with the pick. It wasn't until JJ started getting some burn and showed himself to be the SF version of Reggie, that Toronto fans took to him and likely inflated his true value.

    If Sacramento ends up in the bottom 10 in the league, then the pick would fall someplace between #31 - #40, which means that they'd only be dropping the pick about 10 spots (or less).

    Given the fact that JJ hasn't done anything to show that he is a legit starter (he is ideally a good 2nd unit rotation player), combined with the fact that he'll be looking for a raise after the season, I think an early 2nd round pick (and freeing up $2.8M cap space) is a great return.

  10. #90
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    No such thing as "Lower Value than a Future 2nd Round Pick". Thats the Lowest of the Low.
    Nope. A 2nd rounder (non-guaranteed) is worth more in terms of cap flex than a late 1st (guaranteed). So maybe BC actually traded up? ;-)
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  11. #91
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    No such thing as "Lower Value than a Future 2nd Round Pick". Thats the Lowest of the Low.
    Lower value = untradeable (as in, nobody wants him in an isolated transaction).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    No such thing as "Lower Value than a Future 2nd Round Pick". Thats the Lowest of the Low.
    That's arguable. A very low 1st round pick might have less value than a high 2nd round pick. At that stage of the draft it is pretty much a crap-shoot, and 1st round picks have guaranteed money. Financial flexibility has considerable value, especially when compared to fringe prospects.

    A quick question - how many Raptors' fans would have traded JJ for the guaranteed right to draft Quincy Miller before the 2012 draft? Be honest, now...

  13. #93
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post

    I've never questioned BCs motives ... until today. He better pull out something BIG to follow this up.
    The James Johnson trade is when you started questioning BC's moves? James Johnson? Well, better late than never....

  14. #94
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    Default Good trage

    Read between the lines here.
    Now tell me is he worth a 1st rounder? People get some edumication here come one.

    "This is a good trade for the Kings, because they only have to give up a future second-round draft pick to make it happen. Johnson can provide the team with some very nice minutes off the bench, likely giving the team some needed depth in the Western Conference. Last season he averaged 9.1 points and 1.4 blocks per game, stats that could really help Sacramento compete.

    As for Toronto, it's another move by one of the busiest teams in the NBA this offseason, all geared towards trying to get the team back to the Eastern Conference Playoffs for the first time in a few years"


    Keywords: BENCH
    He is on the BENCH FOLKS ....you dont land a 1st rounder for a bench dude...atleast not for JJ.
    The dude has ego issues and low IQ

  15. #95
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    This is just a money move. Could you have gotten more? Sure, but they would have been trading our flawed player for there's. I would have moved Kleiza, but they must really believe in JV to keep a babysitter around. The only news with this is they must expect Landry to be our starting 3. Maybe this is a move to prep a trade for Jose, but my suspicion is that it's just to save money at a position ... so why haven't they sorted out the 4 yet?

  16. #96
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    Probably my least favorite trade from Colangelo ... can't think of one worse right now. JJ's athleticism and length really helped the raps defensively. I'm also one of those who thinks JJ was our best defender last year. Sure - there were one or two times were he gambled and lost... but his general defense was good.

    I thought Kleiza, Davis or even Derozan would go first ... and now with Lowry, I guess we'll have to see Calderon go as well.

    The raptors may want to trade JJ because of character issues, but I think other nba teams would be willing to trade for JJ's talent for more than a 2nd round pick. Also, who says the Sacramento pick will be a high 2nd round pick? Is it a sure thing? I'd rate this trade a D+/C- ... even if there's more to come. Thumbs down.

  17. #97
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    2012-13: $19,752,645
    2013-14: $21,466,718
    2014-15: $23,180,790
    2015-16: $24,894,863

    If you need any further explanation of why that would be the worst idea ever, please enquire.
    Exactly ...
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  18. #98
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    This was a bench-caliber player that got into it with the coach. We couldn't keep him, and what can we expect to get back?


    I'm disappointed that we didn't keep him to package with Jose to try and bring in an overpaid, higher-caliber SF. He's got a cap number that makes him a decent throw-in piece, and he could play the minutes at SF that a would-be-trade-partner would need. If anything, i think this shows there is nothing else of note coming. We're going into the season with DD/Ross at the 2 and LK/Fields at the 3. Pretty ridiculous that we payed over $6 to get a guy that's going to play out of position and share minute.

    The only moves left are to trade Jose for another 2nd rounder, then trade the 2 picks we acquire from Jose/JJ and get a backup PG.
    Last edited by NoBan; Mon Jul 16th, 2012 at 11:50 AM.

  19. #99
    Raptors Republic Starter Dr Hannibal Lecter's Avatar
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    Default Cap Relief...

    I like the deal,we don't need bums,3 million cap relief,remember ppl he playd in Toronto where players are little overrated,bc they play a lot of minutes,plus I didin't like the guy.
    Hmm..2 bad Bryan Colangelo didn't try 2 make this as a package deal, and try 2 get Tyreke Evans.

  20. #100
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    I would have much rather traded Kleiza's 5mil contract for a second rounder. JV can handle himself we don't need to pay Kleiza 5 mil to do it, we can get a translator and buddy for him without wasting our cap and rotation space.

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