Your 2012/2013 Toronto Raptors

[Bendit]

The hand wringing...the sky is falling sentiment as well as the resurrection of the "dump BC" mantra is palpable in the thread. And it's only been approx. 7 days since the F/A fest began.

While I am not doing cartwheels with the scope of the acquisitions todate (since I as well felt that this off season upto the trade deadline was going to be most important in the sustainable development of the team) I am aware that there is much time to go with significant opportunity especially at the trade deadline if BC keeps his powder dry in terms of maintaining cap flexibility for at least 1 major acquisition.

As someone else said, I look forward to watching how Casey molds this team (Bargs and DD included). Even the naysayers grudgingly seem to admit that there has been roster improvement but the disagreement seems to lie in not accepting a glass half full viewpoint on the growth possibilities of this team because of some of BC's failures of the past. We have to admit that he has recently realized (two years ago) that "defense" had to be the central focus/makeup of the team going forward. Every move he has made since has been to this end.

It's a fine line in the NBA with even admired gm's like Morey spinning his wheels the last few years and now doing the high wire act. Are we all prepared to suddenly think differently of him if his moves fall flat (getting in on the Howard deal)? I know I wouldn't. Re BC, my own posture is that he has this coming season entirely to show clearly that most knowledgeable fans are confident that there is an upward trajectory. I shall be changing my colours if this team's acquisitions show to be mistakes.

[slaw]

The age of the argument doesn't change its validity.

I imagine that any Raptor fan that was upset (or would have been mad) at the idea of trading Bosh is eating a bowl full of crow right about now

See, I don't, and never have, faulted Colangelo for not dealing Bosh. Bosh was a really good player who accomplished more here than any other player other than VC. I fault BC for all the disastrous moves he made around Bosh. Bosh was never the problem, management was.

[Matt52]

See, I don't, and never have, faulted Colangelo for not dealing Bosh. Bosh was a really good player who accomplished more here than any other player other than VC. I fault BC for all the disastrous moves he made around Bosh. Bosh was never the problem, management was.

Good point. Despite efforts, all moves made around Bosh failed miserably.

[Matt52]

The hand wringing...the sky is falling sentiment as well as the resurrection of the "dump BC" mantra is palpable in the thread. And it's only been approx. 7 days since the F/A fest began.

While I am not doing cartwheels with the scope of the acquisitions todate (since I as well felt that this off season upto the trade deadline was going to be most important in the sustainable development of the team) I am aware that there is much time to go with significant opportunity especially at the trade deadline if BC keeps his powder dry in terms of maintaining cap flexibility for at least 1 major acquisition.

As someone else said, I look forward to watching how Casey molds this team (Bargs and DD included). Even the naysayers grudgingly seem to admit that there has been roster improvement but the disagreement seems to lie in not accepting a glass half full viewpoint on the growth possibilities of this team because of some of BC's failures of the past. We have to admit that he has recently realized (two years ago) that "defense" had to be the central focus/makeup of the team going forward. Every move he has made since has been to this end.

It's a fine line in the NBA with even admired gm's like Morey spinning his wheels the last few years and now doing the high wire act. Are we all prepared to suddenly think differently of him if his moves fall flat (getting in on the Howard deal)? I know I wouldn't. Re BC, my own posture is that he has this coming season entirely to show clearly that most knowledgeable fans are confident that there is an upward trajectory. I shall be changing my colours if this team's acquisitions show to be mistakes.

Nice post, bendit.

I hope to see BC's option picked up for 2013-14 and if real improvement is not shown (ie playoff runs) then it is time to say good bye.

[Craiger]

With that train of thought anyone who bet/forecast an outcome to an event and was wrong is an idiot.

We can all sit here and make smart remarks and valid points with the benefit of hindsight.

Are you able to make an argument that has to do with Colangelo without building a straw man?

Taking a bet and losing or being wrong doesn't make you an idiot. What you risk, what you bet on and what the odds are would define the idiocy. But none of that changes that in the end he lost the bet.

Talk hindsight all you like. There were no shortage of fans, media etc who thought he was walking.

And none of that changes that those 'reactionary fans' you talk about would still be eating crow right now

[Craiger]

See, I don't, and never have, faulted Colangelo for not dealing Bosh. Bosh was a really good player who accomplished more here than any other player other than VC. I fault BC for all the disastrous moves he made around Bosh. Bosh was never the problem, management was.

I don't disagree with you. I mean I do fault Colangelo for not dealing Bosh because he lost a ton of value. But the bigger issue was definetely poor management decisions to get to that point.

But it was still a lost asset. That can't be ignored.

[Matt52]

Are you able to make an argument that has to do with Colangelo without building a straw man?

Taking a bet and losing or being wrong doesn't make you an idiot. What you risk, what you bet on and what the odds are would define the idiocy. But none of that changes that in the end he lost the bet.

Talk hindsight all you like. There were no shortage of fans, media etc who thought he was walking.

And none of that changes that those 'reactionary fans' you talk about would still be eating crow right now

Sorry. Gotta call bullpoop. Raps traded Bosh in thick of playoff hunt would have caused anarchy. Nevermind the fact value wasn't coming back because he refused to sign extension with ANYONE.

I will to talk about hindsight because your comments are full of it... Calling a spade a spade in the most respectful manner.

[Usagi_yo_Jimbo]

I'm really excited for this years team. They are faster, stronger and badder. With a full training camp with coach Casey, no more learning on the fly. I see them anywhere from 7th-10th. This years team is def gonna make some noise. People should realize this and stop bitchin. I mean, they arent gonna be a championship caliber team, but they're really not that far off. I know i might be a little over optimistic, but shouldnt all fans be? The squad's gonna be up and down, high flying and casey's defence. Everyone just chill and enjoy, this team just might surprise everyone.

[Craiger]

Sorry. Gotta call bullpoop. Raps traded Bosh in thick of playoff hunt would have caused anarchy. Nevermind the fact value wasn't coming back because he refused to sign extension with ANYONE.

I will to talk about hindsight because your comments are full of it... Calling a spade a spade in the most respectful manner.

I say to my friend "the sky is falling so build a bomb shelter", and my friend tells me I'm wrong. Then the sky falls. I look at him in my bomb shelter and say "I knew it was going to fall" Was I using hindsight?

The people who think others are using 'hindsight' as their argument, are the usually the ones in their friends bomb shelter

Oh speaking of which, did you notice the 'hindsight' in your argument there spade?

[Matt52]

I say to my friend "the sky is falling so build a bomb shelter", and my friend tells me I'm wrong. Then the sky falls. I look at him in my bomb shelter and say "I knew it was going to fall" Was I using hindsight?

The people who think others are using 'hindsight' as their argument, are the usually the ones in their friends bomb shelter

Oh speaking of which, did you notice the 'hindsight' in your argument there spade?

You are using hindsight to validate your shoulda/coulda/woulda argument of a known outcome..

I am speculating on a past event that never happened while also highlighting no extension meant the raps were likely to receive the same as what they did... More speculation.

[Bendit]

I don't disagree with you. I mean I do fault Colangelo for not dealing Bosh because he lost a ton of value. But the bigger issue was definetely poor management decisions to get to that point.

But it was still a lost asset. That can't be ignored.

It seems you discount at least a couple of very real possibilities....a) BC's history as a gm has been one of a player friendly exec. egs. trading players to teams of preference, buying out players rather than have them sit, second chances and the like. To this end I believe strongly that he took Bosh at his word about giving Toronto a fair shot in the evaluating process at seasons end and if the choice was to leave then be a cooperative f/a re the sign & trade scenario. I (as well as many) believe Bosh lied or went back on his word on both counts. This I am unaware re BC's mo.
b) the Bosh and Lebron f/a shenanigans were to my knowledge the first real high profile f/a events of much angst (the Boozer renege possibly being one a few yrs. before). These moves served as a blueprint for gms as to how to not act in similar cases...meaning offer an extension or new contract to an upcoming expiring star player's existing deal a year before. If refused, trade the guy for the best deal. This of course started to happen with DWill and Carmelo and soon with Howard. Nash on the other hand showed how to act with propriety and I suggest what BC had in mind.

I suppose one can suggest these to be excuses and that BC either has a weak personality for a gm or incompetent or both for not having foreseen the Bosh chameleon moves and premeditated arrangements involving a combination of his agent, Wade and Riley...definitely a trifecta not to be messed with. BC just read Bosh wrong. If he of course made a similar mistake again I'll get worked up about it. In the meantime....

[Matt52]

It seems you discount at least a couple of very real possibilities....a) BC's history as a gm has been one of a player friendly exec. egs. trading players to teams of preference, buying out players rather than have them sit, second chances and the like. To this end I believe strongly that he took Bosh at his word about giving Toronto a fair shot in the evaluating process at seasons end and if the choice was to leave then be a cooperative f/a re the sign & trade scenario. I (as well as many) believe Bosh lied or went back on his word on both counts. This I am unaware re BC's mo.
b) the Bosh and Lebron f/a shenanigans were to my knowledge the first real high profile f/a events of much angst (the Boozer renege possibly being one a few yrs. before). These moves served as a blueprint for gms as to how to not act in similar cases...meaning offer an extension or new contract to an upcoming expiring star player's existing deal a year before. If refused, trade the guy for the best deal. This of course started to happen with DWill and Carmelo and soon with Howard. Nash on the other hand showed how to act with propriety and I suggest what BC had in mind.

I suppose one can suggest these to be excuses and that BC either has a weak personality for a gm or incompetent or both for not having foreseen the Bosh chameleon moves and premeditated arrangements involving a combination of his agent, Wade and Riley...definitely a trifecta not to be messed with. BC just read Bosh wrong. If he of course made a similar mistake again I'll get worked up about it. In the meantime....

Oh yeah and the Raps are younger deeper and better heading into 12-13 than they were in 09-10, 10-11, and 11-12.

[Miekenstien]

what we could have gotten for bosh and the anger at bc for not getting is nothing compared to what the cavs could have gotten for lebron. i know there is one cavs fan on our site can he tell us if their forums are still whining about two years ago? have the cavs changed gms?

bosh is gone. we got what we got. you can see from dwill and dwight that it wont happen again. everyone learnt from this. if we are speculating we should be speculating on the potentially illegal collusion that happened between 3 players all under contract making free agency plans months if not years in advance.

[Craiger]

It seems you discount at least a couple of very real possibilities....a) BC's history as a gm has been one of a player friendly exec. egs. trading players to teams of preference, buying out players rather than have them sit, second chances and the like. To this end I believe strongly that he took Bosh at his word about giving Toronto a fair shot in the evaluating process at seasons end and if the choice was to leave then be a cooperative f/a re the sign & trade scenario. I (as well as many) believe Bosh lied or went back on his word on both counts. This I am unaware re BC's mo.
b) the Bosh and Lebron f/a shenanigans were to my knowledge the first real high profile f/a events of much angst (the Boozer renege possibly being one a few yrs. before). These moves served as a blueprint for gms as to how to not act in similar cases...meaning offer an extension or new contract to an upcoming expiring star player's existing deal a year before. If refused, trade the guy for the best deal. This of course started to happen with DWill and Carmelo and soon with Howard. Nash on the other hand showed how to act with propriety and I suggest what BC had in mind.

I suppose one can suggest these to be excuses and that BC either has a weak personality for a gm or incompetent or both for not having foreseen the Bosh chameleon moves and premeditated arrangements involving a combination of his agent, Wade and Riley...definitely a trifecta not to be messed with. BC just read Bosh wrong. If he of course made a similar mistake again I'll get worked up about it. In the meantime....

I don't want to give the impression I'm discounting anything. I'm saying there was a real possibility he was going to leave. This is not some hidden possibility that came out after the fact (as Matt52 seems to want me to believe). It was talked about by the media, by Bosh, by Colangelo, by fans, by people not even affiliated by the Raptors. It was talked about as early as the summer of 2008 when New York started freeing up cap space for the 2010 offseason and Bosh turned down his first extension offers

Maybe Colangelo thought he could keep him, maybe Bosh swindled him, maybe Colangelo wasn't being offered what he wanted, maybe he didn't care and thought the team would be good enough without him. I don't know.

But that risk was there. Colangelo, for whatever reason he may have had, took the risk. In the end he lost on his bet.

As NoBan said initially, this shouldn't be viewed as a excuse, it should be viewed as a black mark. A GM is still a GM and the decision they make, for better or worse, effect the team.


(I also want to note. Bosh isn't the first all-star calibre player in the NBA to leave a team at free agency. He's not even the first all-star calibre raptor to do it (although McGrady's situation was under a different CBA). So this isn't some sort of unique event. Denver or Utah may have learned from Toronto and been more proactive, but that doesn't excuse Toronto from not being more proactive themselves)

[tucas]

Idk why everyone's saying not trading bosh was a bad idea by colangelo. We did trade bosh and got our own pick back. I'd much rather have Jonas valanciunas going forward than bosh. Great move BC!

[Craiger]

Idk why everyone's saying not trading bosh was a bad idea by colangelo. We did trade bosh and got our own pick back. I'd much rather have Jonas valanciunas going forward than bosh. Great move BC!

The Bosh sign and trade had nothing to do with Jonas.

[Matt52]

I don't want to give the impression I'm discounting anything. I'm saying there was a real possibility he was going to leave. This is not some hidden possibility that came out after the fact (as Matt52 seems to want me to believe). It was talked about by the media, by Bosh, by Colangelo, by fans, by people not even affiliated by the Raptors. It was talked about as early as the summer of 2008 when New York started freeing up cap space for the 2010 offseason and Bosh turned down his first extension offers

Maybe Colangelo thought he could keep him, maybe Bosh swindled him, maybe Colangelo wasn't being offered what he wanted, maybe he didn't care and thought the team would be good enough without him. I don't know.

But that risk was there. Colangelo, for whatever reason he may have had, took the risk. In the end he lost on his bet.

As NoBan said initially, this shouldn't be viewed as a excuse, it should be viewed as a black mark. A GM is still a GM and the decision they make, for better or worse, effect the team.


(I also want to note. Bosh isn't the first all-star calibre player in the NBA to leave a team at free agency. He's not even the first all-star calibre raptor to do it (although McGrady's situation was under a different CBA). So this isn't some sort of unique event. Denver or Utah may have learned from Toronto and been more proactive, but that doesn't excuse Toronto from not being more proactive themselves)

Simmer down now.

Where did I say Bosh would not leave?

I said fans would have lost their mind had best player been dealt while still playoff bound. Raps stI'll only missed playoffs on last game of season.

I also said raps nEver would have got fair market value because he refused an extension with ANYONE.

I also said that everything Bosh said publicly (max $ possible, be the man) went against what he actually did.

At no point did I say there was no possibility of him leaving.

[Miekenstien]

I don't want to give the impression I'm discounting anything. I'm saying there was a real possibility he was going to leave. This is not some hidden possibility that came out after the fact (as Matt52 seems to want me to believe). It was talked about by the media, by Bosh, by Colangelo, by fans, by people not even affiliated by the Raptors. It was talked about as early as the summer of 2008 when New York started freeing up cap space for the 2010 offseason and Bosh turned down his first extension offers

Maybe Colangelo thought he could keep him, maybe Bosh swindled him, maybe Colangelo wasn't being offered what he wanted, maybe he didn't care and thought the team would be good enough without him. I don't know.

But that risk was there. Colangelo, for whatever reason he may have had, took the risk. In the end he lost on his bet.

As NoBan said initially, this shouldn't be viewed as a excuse, it should be viewed as a black mark. A GM is still a GM and the decision they make, for better or worse, effect the team.


(I also want to note. Bosh isn't the first all-star calibre player in the NBA to leave a team at free agency. He's not even the first all-star calibre raptor to do it (although McGrady's situation was under a different CBA). So this isn't some sort of unique event. Denver or Utah may have learned from Toronto and been more proactive, but that doesn't excuse Toronto from not being more proactive themselves)

i think that until bosh and lebron did the runner that most if not all players took the extra years and the money it guaranteed them. we aren't privy to the conversations that bc had with bosh. this is basically a he says she says kind of thing. we can believe bosh "really" thought about going to a different city or we can believe that bc "really" thought bosh was coming back. i choose to believe that bosh/lebron/wade had planned this from there usa teaming to get together. i don't fault them for doing it. lebron tried to get bosh to the cavs before bailing on them, bosh was busy trying to make himself usa famous with his reality show.

could we have gotten more, yes, the rockets trade was nice and i think that if there was a second chance that offer would have been taken now. i am at work now but if someone can go over the years of players running from max term/max money deals in the past 30 years we can see if this was a ground breaking moment or if it was just rose coloured glasses from our management.

[Matt52]

The Bosh sign and trade had nothing to do with Jonas.

And right there all credibility lost.

[tucas]

The Bosh sign and trade had nothing to do with Jonas.

Lol yes it did. The trade was Miami's first rounder which we traded to get James Johnson the TPE and the raptors draft pick which we had previously sent to Miami in another trade. Can't remember which one off the top of my head though.