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Thread: Your 2012/2013 Toronto Raptors

  1. #121
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote tucas wrote: View Post
    Lol yes it did. The trade was Miami's first rounder which we traded to get James Johnson the TPE and the raptors draft pick which we had previously sent to Miami in another trade. Can't remember which one off the top of my head though.
    JO/Marion

  2. #122
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    i think that until bosh and lebron did the runner that most if not all players took the extra years and the money it guaranteed them. we aren't privy to the conversations that bc had with bosh. this is basically a he says she says kind of thing. we can believe bosh "really" thought about going to a different city or we can believe that bc "really" thought bosh was coming back. i choose to believe that bosh/lebron/wade had planned this from there usa teaming to get together. i don't fault them for doing it. lebron tried to get bosh to the cavs before bailing on them, bosh was busy trying to make himself usa famous with his reality show.

    could we have gotten more, yes, the rockets trade was nice and i think that if there was a second chance that offer would have been taken now. i am at work now but if someone can go over the years of players running from max term/max money deals in the past 30 years we can see if this was a ground breaking moment or if it was just rose coloured glasses from our management.
    It was unprecedented.

  3. #123
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Simmer down now.

    Where did I say Bosh would not leave?

    I said fans would have lost their mind had best player been dealt while still playoff bound. Raps stI'll only missed playoffs on last game of season.

    I also said raps nEver would have got fair market value because he refused an extension with ANYONE.

    I also said that everything Bosh said publicly (max $ possible, be the man) went against what he actually did.

    At no point did I say there was no possibility of him leaving.
    No need for me to 'simmer down' as I'm not 'simmered up'. But your concern is noted.

    Glad you recognized I wasn't using hindsight though

  4. #124
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    John Lucas III would occupy the 15th spot right?
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  5. #125
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote tucas wrote: View Post
    Lol yes it did. The trade was Miami's first rounder which we traded to get James Johnson the TPE and the raptors draft pick which we had previously sent to Miami in another trade. Can't remember which one off the top of my head though.
    it didn't.

    The Raps received their pick back yes. But the pick was lottery protected, and the raps were in the lottery. So they would have been able to draft Jonas regardless of a Bosh sign and trade or not.

    And right there all credibility lost.
    "Credibility" regained......

  6. #126
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    No need for me to 'simmer down' as I'm not 'simmered up'. But your concern is noted.

    Glad you recognized I wasn't using hindsight though
    And if he would have signed extension???? Raps would have got pennies on the dollar and immediately thrown in playoff towel while still battling for 6-8 seed.

    Yeah, but, but he never resigned!

    Ahhhhhhh! Hindsight!

  7. #127
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    it didn't.

    The Raps received their pick back yes. But the pick was lottery protected, and the raps were in the lottery. So they would have been able to draft Jonas regardless of a Bosh sign and trade or not.



    "Credibility" regained......
    Well you got me there indeed.

  8. #128
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Quote tucas wrote: View Post
    Lol yes it did. The trade was Miami's first rounder which we traded to get James Johnson the TPE and the raptors draft pick which we had previously sent to Miami in another trade. Can't remember which one off the top of my head though.
    Sorry guys...as much as i would like to put a silver lining on the bosh trade, as has been pointed out in other threads, regardless of whether or not we got the pick back in the Miami trade, we would have been able to use it to pick JV anyways. The pick was lottery protected so it would have defaulted to us any year we didn't make the playoffs. Sorry for the run on sentence as well.

    edit. i have been beaten to the punch

  9. #129
    Raptors Republic All-Star tucas's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    it didn't.

    The Raps received their pick back yes. But the pick was lottery protected, and the raps were in the lottery. So they would have been able to draft Jonas regardless of a Bosh sign and trade or not.



    "Credibility" regained......
    Lol well you got me there.... Shoulda figured raptors wouldn't be stupid enough to give away an unprotected pick for those guys.

  10. #130
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    I get it... people were expecting radical change. Steve Nash was going to parachute in and using his Captain Canada powers magically lure Andre Igoudala into our starting 3 role. I completely understand the sentiment. After a few years in the wilderness I expected some serious upgrades. The thing is though I was wrong to ever expect it because the rules of free agency have not changed. If you look where all the free agents go they are like moths to a flame. NYK, BKY, MIA, BOS, LAC, LAL, DAL are already good teams. Nobody wants to go to a losing situation when they have the choice. We thought we could skip ahead a few steps but I, and I think everyone else that thought that way was wrong.

    By position

    PG: Nobody here denies that Kyle Lowry is a SERIOUS upgrade to Jose Calderon in our defensive system. Kyle Lowry was on pace for an all star season before his infection. Jose Calderon coming off the bench is really where he always should have been. He will be able to dismantle the second unit of other teams, and keep the offense going when others hit the bench. Nobody will dispute Calderon is better than Bayless in every way that isn't defense.

    SG: The natural progression of DeMar DeRozan entering a contract a year will be big. Adding Terrence Ross into the mix is already an upgrade to Gary Forbes and he hasn't even played an NBA game yet. Consider this an upgrade.

    SF: Kleiza is a very good player. People roast him but try going through microfracture surgery sometime and tell me how your first season back goes. Watched him in international play and he is shooting up a storm, has great bounce again and moving his feet really well. Upgrade based solely on health alone. Landry Fields, in a player whose impact will not always be seen on the box score. He is as we have all including Colangelo, overpaid. If you look at some of the contracts handed out..(Lopez max deal) (Hump 12million per) (Green 10million after heart surgery) if you don't overpay you don't get free agents...period. Fields is also an upgrade over James Johnson not that he will put up better stats but he won't make the same mistakes.

    PF: Ed Davis looks great...and if doesn't play that way we drafted an animal in Quincy Acy that would love to eat his minutes. Bargnani took the summer off from the National team (which if you know Bargnani is huge deal for him) In order to ensure he is perfectly healthy this year. He looks like a borderline all star this year, and we saw the character of the man when he limped off the court in Utah. By virtue of health (Bargnani) Improvement (Davis) and Grit (Acy) this position is improved.

    C: JV17 will have an immeadiate impact. You can't play with his motor and not have an effect on your team. Gray is back as a stop gap, and Amir can play the 5 in small ball scenarios which the league is gravitating towards.
    Consider this an upgrade.


    NOW...to those saying that we shouldn't be happy with a first round playoff exit this year. You are just plain wrong. We should happy with exactly that. Because having run up stairs a few times in my day I know if you try and skip too many steps you fall flat on your face. If we manage to put together a good show in a first round playoff exit, suddenly free agents will go...hmmmm team is on the way up...If I joined I might be able to take them to the next level. Your own potential RFAs think, this team has a future and will still pay me, and won't be looking to bolt ala Batum. WE CAN NOT SKIP THE STEP THAT BOTH CHICAGO AND INDIANA went through which is knocking on the playoff door telling everyone we are here to stay and attracting better talent in the 2012/2013 offseason...which we will again have up to 17 million in flexibility.

  11. #131
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    someone edit that for me. I'm tired after writing it

  12. #132
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Glen Grunwald. - Vince Carter
    I.Thomas - Tracy McGrady
    R.Babcok - Chris Bosh

    I named you 3.
    why don't you compare those 3 drafts to recent ones. Barely comparable not many good players were available at our spot and BC overall is a better GM than those 3 how long did Thomas and Babcock last? not very long.

  13. #133
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I get it... people were expecting radical change. Steve Nash was going to parachute in and using his Captain Canada powers magically lure Andre Igoudala into our starting 3 role. I completely understand the sentiment. After a few years in the wilderness I expected some serious upgrades. The thing is though I was wrong to ever expect it because the rules of free agency have not changed. If you look where all the free agents go they are like moths to a flame. NYK, BKY, MIA, BOS, LAC, LAL, DAL are already good teams. Nobody wants to go to a losing situation when they have the choice. We thought we could skip ahead a few steps but I, and I think everyone else that thought that way was wrong.

    By position

    PG: Nobody here denies that Kyle Lowry is a SERIOUS upgrade to Jose Calderon in our defensive system. Kyle Lowry was on pace for an all star season before his infection. Jose Calderon coming off the bench is really where he always should have been. He will be able to dismantle the second unit of other teams, and keep the offense going when others hit the bench. Nobody will dispute Calderon is better than Bayless in every way that isn't defense.

    SG: The natural progression of DeMar DeRozan entering a contract a year will be big. Adding Terrence Ross into the mix is already an upgrade to Gary Forbes and he hasn't even played an NBA game yet. Consider this an upgrade.

    SF: Kleiza is a very good player. People roast him but try going through microfracture surgery sometime and tell me how your first season back goes. Watched him in international play and he is shooting up a storm, has great bounce again and moving his feet really well. Upgrade based solely on health alone. Landry Fields, in a player whose impact will not always be seen on the box score. He is as we have all including Colangelo, overpaid. If you look at some of the contracts handed out..(Lopez max deal) (Hump 12million per) (Green 10million after heart surgery) if you don't overpay you don't get free agents...period. Fields is also an upgrade over James Johnson not that he will put up better stats but he won't make the same mistakes.

    PF: Ed Davis looks great...and if doesn't play that way we drafted an animal in Quincy Acy that would love to eat his minutes. Bargnani took the summer off from the National team (which if you know Bargnani is huge deal for him) In order to ensure he is perfectly healthy this year. He looks like a borderline all star this year, and we saw the character of the man when he limped off the court in Utah. By virtue of health (Bargnani) Improvement (Davis) and Grit (Acy) this position is improved.

    C: JV17 will have an immeadiate impact. You can't play with his motor and not have an effect on your team. Gray is back as a stop gap, and Amir can play the 5 in small ball scenarios which the league is gravitating towards.
    Consider this an upgrade.


    NOW...to those saying that we shouldn't be happy with a first round playoff exit this year. You are just plain wrong. We should happy with exactly that. Because having run up stairs a few times in my day I know if you try and skip too many steps you fall flat on your face. If we manage to put together a good show in a first round playoff exit, suddenly free agents will go...hmmmm team is on the way up...If I joined I might be able to take them to the next level. Your own potential RFAs think, this team has a future and will still pay me, and won't be looking to bolt ala Batum. WE CAN NOT SKIP THE STEP THAT BOTH CHICAGO AND INDIANA went through which is knocking on the playoff door telling everyone we are here to stay and attracting better talent in the 2012/2013 offseason...which we will again have up to 17 million in flexibility.
    Nice post.

    Not comparing TOR & OKC but OKC also took that 1st round exit to get to where they are today.

  14. #134
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    In fairness, I kinda thought 7 years might be long enough to figure things out. Or are we in year 1 again? Year 2? Second or third rebuild? I get so confused with the shifting goalposts for this team....
    its the 2nd rebuild its not hard really. In case you forgot chris bosh left, and we've been rebuilding since. If you don't have patience to watch this team build and grow organically no ones forcing you to watch. Go watch a team like the Knicks who buy players and become playoff contenders over night. We don't have that type of rep and appeal so we cant use that route, we gotta do it old fashion way and its working. an 8th seed in the playoffs would provide tons of experience and it will help us get better as a team. You think just cause we make the 8th spot we'll stay there? i'm counting on us improving year by year and our rank in the playoffs increasing till we're at out peak.

  15. #135
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    I really find it strange those people that think Bosh leaving constitutes a fresh slate for BC. Or that Bosh's departure should be some type of excuse for the losing that followed.

    He completely botched the Bosh situation and thus set us back 2 or 3 seasons. It's a black mark on this tenure, not a reason for patience.
    it doesn't help that bosh is like "oh i'll probably be back next season" if he was straight up and told BC he wanted a trade we could've gotten some good pieces for him. Its not entirely his fault, he pulled a lebron instead of a melo.

  16. #136
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I get it... people were expecting radical change. Steve Nash was going to parachute in and using his Captain Canada powers magically lure Andre Igoudala into our starting 3 role. I completely understand the sentiment. After a few years in the wilderness I expected some serious upgrades. The thing is though I was wrong to ever expect it because the rules of free agency have not changed. If you look where all the free agents go they are like moths to a flame. NYK, BKY, MIA, BOS, LAC, LAL, DAL are already good teams. Nobody wants to go to a losing situation when they have the choice. We thought we could skip ahead a few steps but I, and I think everyone else that thought that way was wrong.

    By position

    PG: Nobody here denies that Kyle Lowry is a SERIOUS upgrade to Jose Calderon in our defensive system. Kyle Lowry was on pace for an all star season before his infection. Jose Calderon coming off the bench is really where he always should have been. He will be able to dismantle the second unit of other teams, and keep the offense going when others hit the bench. Nobody will dispute Calderon is better than Bayless in every way that isn't defense.

    SG: The natural progression of DeMar DeRozan entering a contract a year will be big. Adding Terrence Ross into the mix is already an upgrade to Gary Forbes and he hasn't even played an NBA game yet. Consider this an upgrade.

    SF: Kleiza is a very good player. People roast him but try going through microfracture surgery sometime and tell me how your first season back goes. Watched him in international play and he is shooting up a storm, has great bounce again and moving his feet really well. Upgrade based solely on health alone. Landry Fields, in a player whose impact will not always be seen on the box score. He is as we have all including Colangelo, overpaid. If you look at some of the contracts handed out..(Lopez max deal) (Hump 12million per) (Green 10million after heart surgery) if you don't overpay you don't get free agents...period. Fields is also an upgrade over James Johnson not that he will put up better stats but he won't make the same mistakes.

    PF: Ed Davis looks great...and if doesn't play that way we drafted an animal in Quincy Acy that would love to eat his minutes. Bargnani took the summer off from the National team (which if you know Bargnani is huge deal for him) In order to ensure he is perfectly healthy this year. He looks like a borderline all star this year, and we saw the character of the man when he limped off the court in Utah. By virtue of health (Bargnani) Improvement (Davis) and Grit (Acy) this position is improved.

    C: JV17 will have an immeadiate impact. You can't play with his motor and not have an effect on your team. Gray is back as a stop gap, and Amir can play the 5 in small ball scenarios which the league is gravitating towards.
    Consider this an upgrade.


    NOW...to those saying that we shouldn't be happy with a first round playoff exit this year. You are just plain wrong. We should happy with exactly that. Because having run up stairs a few times in my day I know if you try and skip too many steps you fall flat on your face. If we manage to put together a good show in a first round playoff exit, suddenly free agents will go...hmmmm team is on the way up...If I joined I might be able to take them to the next level. Your own potential RFAs think, this team has a future and will still pay me, and won't be looking to bolt ala Batum. WE CAN NOT SKIP THE STEP THAT BOTH CHICAGO AND INDIANA went through which is knocking on the playoff door telling everyone we are here to stay and attracting better talent in the 2012/2013 offseason...which we will again have up to 17 million in flexibility.
    +10000 Way to shut up the non believers

  17. #137
    Raptors Republic All-Star tucas's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I get it... people were expecting radical change. Steve Nash was going to parachute in and using his Captain Canada powers magically lure Andre Igoudala into our starting 3 role. I completely understand the sentiment. After a few years in the wilderness I expected some serious upgrades. The thing is though I was wrong to ever expect it because the rules of free agency have not changed. If you look where all the free agents go they are like moths to a flame. NYK, BKY, MIA, BOS, LAC, LAL, DAL are already good teams. Nobody wants to go to a losing situation when they have the choice. We thought we could skip ahead a few steps but I, and I think everyone else that thought that way was wrong.

    By position

    PG: Nobody here denies that Kyle Lowry is a SERIOUS upgrade to Jose Calderon in our defensive system. Kyle Lowry was on pace for an all star season before his infection. Jose Calderon coming off the bench is really where he always should have been. He will be able to dismantle the second unit of other teams, and keep the offense going when others hit the bench. Nobody will dispute Calderon is better than Bayless in every way that isn't defense.

    SG: The natural progression of DeMar DeRozan entering a contract a year will be big. Adding Terrence Ross into the mix is already an upgrade to Gary Forbes and he hasn't even played an NBA game yet. Consider this an upgrade.

    SF: Kleiza is a very good player. People roast him but try going through microfracture surgery sometime and tell me how your first season back goes. Watched him in international play and he is shooting up a storm, has great bounce again and moving his feet really well. Upgrade based solely on health alone. Landry Fields, in a player whose impact will not always be seen on the box score. He is as we have all including Colangelo, overpaid. If you look at some of the contracts handed out..(Lopez max deal) (Hump 12million per) (Green 10million after heart surgery) if you don't overpay you don't get free agents...period. Fields is also an upgrade over James Johnson not that he will put up better stats but he won't make the same mistakes.

    PF: Ed Davis looks great...and if doesn't play that way we drafted an animal in Quincy Acy that would love to eat his minutes. Bargnani took the summer off from the National team (which if you know Bargnani is huge deal for him) In order to ensure he is perfectly healthy this year. He looks like a borderline all star this year, and we saw the character of the man when he limped off the court in Utah. By virtue of health (Bargnani) Improvement (Davis) and Grit (Acy) this position is improved.

    C: JV17 will have an immeadiate impact. You can't play with his motor and not have an effect on your team. Gray is back as a stop gap, and Amir can play the 5 in small ball scenarios which the league is gravitating towards.
    Consider this an upgrade.


    NOW...to those saying that we shouldn't be happy with a first round playoff exit this year. You are just plain wrong. We should happy with exactly that. Because having run up stairs a few times in my day I know if you try and skip too many steps you fall flat on your face. If we manage to put together a good show in a first round playoff exit, suddenly free agents will go...hmmmm team is on the way up...If I joined I might be able to take them to the next level. Your own potential RFAs think, this team has a future and will still pay me, and won't be looking to bolt ala Batum. WE CAN NOT SKIP THE STEP THAT BOTH CHICAGO AND INDIANA went through which is knocking on the playoff door telling everyone we are here to stay and attracting better talent in the 2012/2013 offseason...which we will again have up to 17 million in flexibility.
    Not gonna lie this may be one of the best things I've read on these forums

  18. #138
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I don't want to give the impression I'm discounting anything. I'm saying there was a real possibility he was going to leave. This is not some hidden possibility that came out after the fact (as Matt52 seems to want me to believe). It was talked about by the media, by Bosh, by Colangelo, by fans, by people not even affiliated by the Raptors. It was talked about as early as the summer of 2008 when New York started freeing up cap space for the 2010 offseason and Bosh turned down his first extension offers

    Maybe Colangelo thought he could keep him, maybe Bosh swindled him, maybe Colangelo wasn't being offered what he wanted, maybe he didn't care and thought the team would be good enough without him. I don't know.

    But that risk was there. Colangelo, for whatever reason he may have had, took the risk. In the end he lost on his bet.

    As NoBan said initially, this shouldn't be viewed as a excuse, it should be viewed as a black mark. A GM is still a GM and the decision they make, for better or worse, effect the team.

    (I also want to note. Bosh isn't the first all-star calibre player in the NBA to leave a team at free agency. He's not even the first all-star calibre raptor to do it (although McGrady's situation was under a different CBA). So this isn't some sort of unique event. Denver or Utah may have learned from Toronto and been more proactive, but that doesn't excuse Toronto from not being more proactive themselves)
    1) I will not argue that there wasn't a possibilty that Bosh would leave. Of course there was. But I believe I provided some rationale why BC may have believed (mainly due to a graceful reading of Bosh's personality and undoubetedly his "commitment" re the s&t...and this is something BC openly spoke about and Bosh did not dispute and may well have confirmed this himself in the many media scrums he had) that regardless of Bosh's decision the Raptor's would have got a somewhat decent return. Never equitable but decent,

    2) Yes, both Bosh and BC confirmed publicly that Bosh would like to test f/a and if the Raps were on the outside would assist/cooperate on a s&t. Him imposing Miami on the Raps was not cooperating in my view.

    3) Yes, Bosh did turn down the extension and but I believe I provide a rationale for why BC decided (above) to go all the way to f/a...he believed he was covered. Bosh was really a weasel and yes the Raptors paid for it. But to crucify BC for giving another human based on his conversations and evaluation of the man, making an informed calculation and then getting shivved is a bit harsh dont you think? I suppose there can be 2 points of view on this but I am ok with accepting someone's word on an issue fully knowing that both parties are aware of the stakes.

    4) Yes, "BC lost the bet". I dont believe BC will be doing the same again (and that is unfortunate). The shake hands concept doesnt quite work all the time. I prefer to give BC a pass on this event and rather think poorly of Mr Bosh.

    5) Black marks and mistakes? ... never mind the "those infallible amongst us..." line but are you sure other GM's do not make mistakes of various levels of serious consequence?

    6) re the last para. I am drawing a bit of a blank, can you provide me with a similar circumstance (like Bosh) since the last CBA (05-06) of a player who left under similar circumstances and the gm of team out-performed BC in return of assets. My impression is that this was a first-off application by agents to take advantage of what was going to occur in 2010. That surreptitious methods including going back on an understanding were used is the major reason for my opposition to blaming BC entirely for the Bosh fiasco.

    As you and others feel otherwise, I do believe many more feel as I do on this issue. As I have mentioned before, this is a do-over for BC. Many dont get the chance. In my view he has another year to show that tangible progress has been made with the team. My own measurement is that it must be young, talented, well coached, with a ceiling/upward trajectory and showing sustainability not just in talent but in line with good cap management. This inevitability leads to the playoffs (yes I didnt say championship!...but considering our recent history I shall take it a step at a time). If not, I shall be happy to see a change....and inevitably the angst with the choice of replacement!!

  19. #139
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    In regards to calling for BCs head...

    I like him, I think he is a savvy business guy.

    I don't think he should be fired today.

    I DO THINK there has to be SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT this year. If we aren't knocking on at least a 40 win season (Just shy of 500 ball), and competing for 6th 7th or 8th seed, than as much as I like the man I sorta feel like he has had his chance, and a second chance.

    ON THE OTHER HAND...

    we are finally rebuilding the right way. we have the right coach. In the previous drafts all of which seem to lack superstars to this date we have picked up a solid player each year. We are ridding ourselves of character issues (Johnson) and players that don't want to accept their role (Bayless, who will make an excellent sixth man the day he finally GETS it) We are adding players with grit, character, and solid basketball IQs.

    Some have said MLSE isn't willing to spend. Truth is they can and would be willing to go into the tax 70million plus if we can put together a product worth it. But they and Colangelo have said you build the team organically and once you are ready to take that step is when you spend the money. I'm not a GM, nor do I play one on TV but that sounds like it makes sense to me. They will not go the Brooklyn or Knicks way of buy our way in and sort it out after. I think teams built that way are asking to implode anyway. If you doubt that assessment look at what the Knicks and Nets are going to pay in tax come 2015.

  20. #140
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Some have said MLSE isn't willing to spend. Truth is they can and would be willing to go into the tax 70million plus if we can put together a product worth it. But they and Colangelo have said you build the team organically and once you are ready to take that step is when you spend the money. I'm not a GM, nor do I play one on TV but that sounds like it makes sense to me. They will not go the Brooklyn or Knicks way of buy our way in and sort it out after. I think teams built that way are asking to implode anyway. If you doubt that assessment look at what the Knicks and Nets are going to pay in tax come 2015.
    lots of money in the playoffs

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