JO/Mariontucas wrote:
JO/Marion
It was unprecedented.
No need for me to 'simmer down' as I'm not 'simmered up'. But your concern is noted.
Glad you recognized I wasn't using hindsight though
John Lucas III would occupy the 15th spot right?
“The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King
it didn't.
The Raps received their pick back yes. But the pick was lottery protected, and the raps were in the lottery. So they would have been able to draft Jonas regardless of a Bosh sign and trade or not.
"Credibility" regained......And right there all credibility lost.
And if he would have signed extension???? Raps would have got pennies on the dollar and immediately thrown in playoff towel while still battling for 6-8 seed.
Yeah, but, but he never resigned!
Ahhhhhhh! Hindsight!
Well you got me there indeed.
Sorry guys...as much as i would like to put a silver lining on the bosh trade, as has been pointed out in other threads, regardless of whether or not we got the pick back in the Miami trade, we would have been able to use it to pick JV anyways. The pick was lottery protected so it would have defaulted to us any year we didn't make the playoffs. Sorry for the run on sentence as well.
edit. i have been beaten to the punch
Lol well you got me there.... Shoulda figured raptors wouldn't be stupid enough to give away an unprotected pick for those guys.
I get it... people were expecting radical change. Steve Nash was going to parachute in and using his Captain Canada powers magically lure Andre Igoudala into our starting 3 role. I completely understand the sentiment. After a few years in the wilderness I expected some serious upgrades. The thing is though I was wrong to ever expect it because the rules of free agency have not changed. If you look where all the free agents go they are like moths to a flame. NYK, BKY, MIA, BOS, LAC, LAL, DAL are already good teams. Nobody wants to go to a losing situation when they have the choice. We thought we could skip ahead a few steps but I, and I think everyone else that thought that way was wrong.
By position
PG: Nobody here denies that Kyle Lowry is a SERIOUS upgrade to Jose Calderon in our defensive system. Kyle Lowry was on pace for an all star season before his infection. Jose Calderon coming off the bench is really where he always should have been. He will be able to dismantle the second unit of other teams, and keep the offense going when others hit the bench. Nobody will dispute Calderon is better than Bayless in every way that isn't defense.
SG: The natural progression of DeMar DeRozan entering a contract a year will be big. Adding Terrence Ross into the mix is already an upgrade to Gary Forbes and he hasn't even played an NBA game yet. Consider this an upgrade.
SF: Kleiza is a very good player. People roast him but try going through microfracture surgery sometime and tell me how your first season back goes. Watched him in international play and he is shooting up a storm, has great bounce again and moving his feet really well. Upgrade based solely on health alone. Landry Fields, in a player whose impact will not always be seen on the box score. He is as we have all including Colangelo, overpaid. If you look at some of the contracts handed out..(Lopez max deal) (Hump 12million per) (Green 10million after heart surgery) if you don't overpay you don't get free agents...period. Fields is also an upgrade over James Johnson not that he will put up better stats but he won't make the same mistakes.
PF: Ed Davis looks great...and if doesn't play that way we drafted an animal in Quincy Acy that would love to eat his minutes. Bargnani took the summer off from the National team (which if you know Bargnani is huge deal for him) In order to ensure he is perfectly healthy this year. He looks like a borderline all star this year, and we saw the character of the man when he limped off the court in Utah. By virtue of health (Bargnani) Improvement (Davis) and Grit (Acy) this position is improved.
C: JV17 will have an immeadiate impact. You can't play with his motor and not have an effect on your team. Gray is back as a stop gap, and Amir can play the 5 in small ball scenarios which the league is gravitating towards.
Consider this an upgrade.
NOW...to those saying that we shouldn't be happy with a first round playoff exit this year. You are just plain wrong. We should happy with exactly that. Because having run up stairs a few times in my day I know if you try and skip too many steps you fall flat on your face. If we manage to put together a good show in a first round playoff exit, suddenly free agents will go...hmmmm team is on the way up...If I joined I might be able to take them to the next level. Your own potential RFAs think, this team has a future and will still pay me, and won't be looking to bolt ala Batum. WE CAN NOT SKIP THE STEP THAT BOTH CHICAGO AND INDIANA went through which is knocking on the playoff door telling everyone we are here to stay and attracting better talent in the 2012/2013 offseason...which we will again have up to 17 million in flexibility.
someone edit that for me. I'm tired after writing it
why don't you compare those 3 drafts to recent ones. Barely comparable not many good players were available at our spot and BC overall is a better GM than those 3 how long did Thomas and Babcock last? not very long.
Nice post.
Not comparing TOR & OKC but OKC also took that 1st round exit to get to where they are today.
its the 2nd rebuild its not hard really. In case you forgot chris bosh left, and we've been rebuilding since. If you don't have patience to watch this team build and grow organically no ones forcing you to watch. Go watch a team like the Knicks who buy players and become playoff contenders over night. We don't have that type of rep and appeal so we cant use that route, we gotta do it old fashion way and its working. an 8th seed in the playoffs would provide tons of experience and it will help us get better as a team. You think just cause we make the 8th spot we'll stay there? i'm counting on us improving year by year and our rank in the playoffs increasing till we're at out peak.
it doesn't help that bosh is like "oh i'll probably be back next season" if he was straight up and told BC he wanted a trade we could've gotten some good pieces for him. Its not entirely his fault, he pulled a lebron instead of a melo.
+10000 Way to shut up the non believers
Not gonna lie this may be one of the best things I've read on these forums
1) I will not argue that there wasn't a possibilty that Bosh would leave. Of course there was. But I believe I provided some rationale why BC may have believed (mainly due to a graceful reading of Bosh's personality and undoubetedly his "commitment" re the s&t...and this is something BC openly spoke about and Bosh did not dispute and may well have confirmed this himself in the many media scrums he had) that regardless of Bosh's decision the Raptor's would have got a somewhat decent return. Never equitable but decent,
2) Yes, both Bosh and BC confirmed publicly that Bosh would like to test f/a and if the Raps were on the outside would assist/cooperate on a s&t. Him imposing Miami on the Raps was not cooperating in my view.
3) Yes, Bosh did turn down the extension and but I believe I provide a rationale for why BC decided (above) to go all the way to f/a...he believed he was covered. Bosh was really a weasel and yes the Raptors paid for it. But to crucify BC for giving another human based on his conversations and evaluation of the man, making an informed calculation and then getting shivved is a bit harsh dont you think? I suppose there can be 2 points of view on this but I am ok with accepting someone's word on an issue fully knowing that both parties are aware of the stakes.
4) Yes, "BC lost the bet". I dont believe BC will be doing the same again (and that is unfortunate). The shake hands concept doesnt quite work all the time. I prefer to give BC a pass on this event and rather think poorly of Mr Bosh.
5) Black marks and mistakes? ... never mind the "those infallible amongst us..." line but are you sure other GM's do not make mistakes of various levels of serious consequence?
6) re the last para. I am drawing a bit of a blank, can you provide me with a similar circumstance (like Bosh) since the last CBA (05-06) of a player who left under similar circumstances and the gm of team out-performed BC in return of assets. My impression is that this was a first-off application by agents to take advantage of what was going to occur in 2010. That surreptitious methods including going back on an understanding were used is the major reason for my opposition to blaming BC entirely for the Bosh fiasco.
As you and others feel otherwise, I do believe many more feel as I do on this issue. As I have mentioned before, this is a do-over for BC. Many dont get the chance. In my view he has another year to show that tangible progress has been made with the team. My own measurement is that it must be young, talented, well coached, with a ceiling/upward trajectory and showing sustainability not just in talent but in line with good cap management. This inevitability leads to the playoffs (yes I didnt say championship!...but considering our recent history I shall take it a step at a time). If not, I shall be happy to see a change....and inevitably the angst with the choice of replacement!!
In regards to calling for BCs head...
I like him, I think he is a savvy business guy.
I don't think he should be fired today.
I DO THINK there has to be SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT this year. If we aren't knocking on at least a 40 win season (Just shy of 500 ball), and competing for 6th 7th or 8th seed, than as much as I like the man I sorta feel like he has had his chance, and a second chance.
ON THE OTHER HAND...
we are finally rebuilding the right way. we have the right coach. In the previous drafts all of which seem to lack superstars to this date we have picked up a solid player each year. We are ridding ourselves of character issues (Johnson) and players that don't want to accept their role (Bayless, who will make an excellent sixth man the day he finally GETS it) We are adding players with grit, character, and solid basketball IQs.
Some have said MLSE isn't willing to spend. Truth is they can and would be willing to go into the tax 70million plus if we can put together a product worth it. But they and Colangelo have said you build the team organically and once you are ready to take that step is when you spend the money. I'm not a GM, nor do I play one on TV but that sounds like it makes sense to me. They will not go the Brooklyn or Knicks way of buy our way in and sort it out after. I think teams built that way are asking to implode anyway. If you doubt that assessment look at what the Knicks and Nets are going to pay in tax come 2015.
lots of money in the playoffs
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