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Thread: Youth and Financial Freedom: Raps current roster beyond 2012-13

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Youth and Financial Freedom: Raps current roster beyond 2012-13

    *I have been intending to make this post but no access to keyboard for last week so here goes as I have one at my finger tips now*

    I've made no secret I like what the Raptors have done thus far this off season. In my opinion, the Raps are younger, deeper, and (most importantly) better than they were on April 26, 2012 (last day of season).

    When looking at the roster, 2 things stand out: youth and money.

    #1) Youth - players signed beyond 2012-13 (all ages as of December 31, 2012):

    Gray 28
    Bargnani 27
    Kleiza 27
    Lowry 26
    Amir 25
    Fields 24
    ED 23
    DD* 23
    Acy 22
    TR 21
    JV 20

    *qualifying offer


    #2) Money

    Gray* $3m
    Bargnani $10.75m
    Kleiza** $4.6m
    Lowry $6.2m
    Amir $6.55m
    Fields $6.3m
    ED $3.158m
    Acy* $900k
    TR $2.232
    JV $2.938

    TOTAL: $46.628 in committed salaries for 2013-14 for 10 players.

    DD: qualifying offer - $4.531m; cap hold - $10.03M

    Raptors also hold amnesty that could be used on Bargnani, Kleiza, or Amir to free up nearly $5-$11m.

    Cap Space: depends on what happens with DD, amnesty, and BRI split. Current salary cap is $58M. Lots of young players under contract and only $46.628M in committed salary - key (and dreaded) word is flexibility.

    *estimating contract
    ** assuming option picked up.


    Assuming the Raptors do not make any significant additions in salary this summer or before trade deadline, Raps are likely to find themselves in a very similar situation next year:
    - young and improving team
    - cap flexibilty


    People will likely groan (and rightfully so) because all this flexibility has gone for nothing thus far. 2 rays of hope:
    1) new punitive tax starts in 2013-14 and might be last chance for a treadmill team (Grizz, Philly, whoever) or team going nowhere to unload contracts before more punitive tax kicks in,
    2) luxury tax teams can no longer execute sign and trades after this summer (limited to $3m mini-MLE or minimum contracts).


    Some things that do concern me:
    1) Still no legit franchise talent (Bargnani, JV, or Ross please prove me wrong - or BC cash in some chips and get one!)
    2) playoffs far from a certainty in 2012-13 but a bottom 10 team seems unlikely as well - worst case scenario, just miss the playoffs and lose a 12-14 pick.


    My ultimate wet dream*:
    1) trade for AI sooner than later,
    2) when AI's contract comes off the books, sign Paul George as free agent.

    *ultimate wet dream - let me dream in peace.


    Putting it all together, things are not perfect but things are not near bad, in my opinion, either.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 08:59 PM.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    *I have been intending to make this post but no access to keyboard for last week so here goes as I have one at my finger tips now*

    I've made no secret I like what the Raptors have done thus far this off season. In my opinion, the Raps are younger, deeper, and (most importantly) better than they were on April 26, 2012 (last day of season).

    When looking at the roster, 2 things stand out: youth and money.

    #1) Youth - players signed beyond 2012-13 (all ages as of December 31, 2012):

    Gray 28
    Bargnani 27
    Kleiza 27
    Lowry 26
    Amir 25
    Fields 24
    ED 23
    DD* 23
    Acy 22
    TR 21
    JV 20

    *qualifying offer


    #2) Money

    Gray* $3m
    Bargnani $10.75m
    Kleiza** $4.6m
    Lowry $6.2m
    Amir $6.55m
    Fields $6.3m
    ED $3.158m
    Acy* $900k
    TR $2.232
    JV $2.938

    TOTAL: $46.628 in committed salaries for 2013-14

    DD: qualifying offer - $4.531m; cap hold - $10.03M

    Raptors also hold amnesty that could be used on Bargnani, Kleiza, or Amir to free up nearly $5-$11m.

    *estimating contract
    ** assuming option picked up.


    Assuming the Raptors do not make any significant additions in salary this summer or before trade deadline, Raps are likely to find themselves in a very similar situation next year:
    - young and improving team
    - cap flexibilty


    People will likely groan (and rightfully so) because all this flexibility has gone for nothing thus far. 2 rays of hope:
    1) new punitive tax starts in 2013-14 and might be last chance for a treadmill team (Grizz, Philly, whoever) or team going nowhere to unload contracts before more punitive tax kicks in,
    2) luxury tax teams can no longer execute sign and trades after this summer (limited to $3m mini-MLE or minimum contracts).


    Some things that do concern me:
    1) Still no legit franchise talent (Bargnani, JV, or Ross please prove me wrong - or BC cash in some chips and get one!)
    2) playoffs far from a certainty in 2012-13 but a bottom 10 team seems unlikely as well - worst case scenario, just miss the playoffs and lose a 12-14 pick.


    My ultimate wet dream*:
    1) trade for AI sooner than later,
    2) when AI's contract comes off the books, sign Paul George as free agent.

    *ultimate wet dream - let me dream in peace.


    Putting it all together, things are not perfect but things are not near bad, in my opinion, either.
    The flexibility, has it not been used on Lucas III, Fields, and Gray? What is the remaining cap space of these moves? Originally the team was at about 12$ million.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    The flexibility, has it not been used on Lucas III, Fields, and Gray? What is the remaining cap space of these moves? Originally the team was at about 12$ million.
    BEYOND 2012-13.

    I'm talking next summer (2013).

    People talking about the summer and future are failures. All I'm saying is hardly.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    BEYOND 2012-13.

    I'm talking next summer (2013).

    People talking about the summer and future are failures. All I'm saying is hardly.
    Ah I see... But, how much cap space are we left with?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Ah I see... But, how much cap space are we left with?
    Updated the post.

    TO answer your question: unknown.

    BRI split, amnesty, what happens with DD all factors.

    What we do know is:
    1) current salary cap is $58M and not expected (I don't think) to go down,
    2) Raps have $46.7m tied up in 10 players for 2013-2014 season.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Updated the post.

    TO answer your question: unknown.

    BRI split, amnesty, what happens with DD all factors.

    What we do know is:
    1) current salary cap is $58M and not expected (I don't think) to go down,
    2) Raps have $46.7m tied up in 10 players for 2013-2014 season.
    Currently the roster paid is not including the possible signing of Anderson and JL3 correct? I've been reading JL3's contract valued to be 2-3$ million, what about Anderson's? Because of his age I'm seeing a vet minimum, or a minimum contract?

    Derozan's qualifying offer NEXT season 4.5$ million, being a rookie scale contract, isn't the last two years on qualifying? So, this would be the final year to use the qualifier?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Currently the roster paid is not including the possible signing of Anderson and JL3 correct? I've been reading JL3's contract valued to be 2-3$ million, what about Anderson's? Because of his age I'm seeing a vet minimum, or a minimum contract?

    Derozan's qualifying offer NEXT season 4.5$ million, being a rookie scale contract, isn't the last two years on qualifying? So, this would be the final year to use the qualifier?
    JL3 contract details are unknown. Anything larger than $2M and longer than 2 years would be a shock and disappointment, however, I do think he is easily traded.

    Andersen will be a minimum contract with team options for anything beyond 2012-13.

    DD's qualifying offer is for 2013-14. DD's options for next summer are:
    1) resign with Toronto long term before October 31,
    2a) become restricted free agent whereby Raps will have right of first refusal on any contract retained by Toronto in matching contract (like HIbbert or Batum) or lost via restricted free agency (like Fields),
    3) sign offer sheet and play out 2013-14 at $4.5m and then become unrestricted free agent in 2014-15,
    4) Raptors renounce his rights to free cap space for another free agent target (like Houston did with Lee) whereby they will lose Bird Rights and have to sign him with cap space left or an exception,



    .... remember the point of the thread is the youth and flexibility beyond 2012-13 (i.e. this upcoming season). The only current player in danger of leaving Toronto without front office consent is DeMar next summer in restricted free agency.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    JL3 contract details are unknown. Anything larger than $2M and longer than 2 years would be a shock and disappointment, however, I do think he is easily traded.

    Andersen will be a minimum contract with team options for anything beyond 2012-13.

    DD's qualifying offer is for 2013-14. DD's options for next summer are:
    1) resign with Toronto long term before October 31,
    2a) become restricted free agent whereby Raps will have right of first refusal on any contract retained by Toronto in matching contract (like HIbbert or Batum) or lost via restricted free agency (like Fields),
    3) sign offer sheet and play out 2013-14 at $4.5m and then become unrestricted free agent in 2014-15,
    4) Raptors renounce his rights to free cap space for another free agent target (like Houston did with Lee) whereby they will lose Bird Rights and have to sign him with cap space left or an exception,



    .... remember the point of the thread is the youth and flexibility beyond 2012-13 (i.e. this upcoming season). The only current player in danger of leaving Toronto without front office consent is DeMar next summer in restricted free agency.
    Thanks for the insight there Matt, good stuff and good original post. I was just really curious on the financial standpoint of this team.
    And I'm happy about that, because if Demar goes, we could potentially use him in a S&T deal to acquire a better wing, but really all depends on how his individual season pans out.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Thanks for the insight there Matt, good stuff and good original post. I was just really curious on the financial standpoint of this team.
    And I'm happy about that, because if Demar goes, we could potentially use him in a S&T deal to acquire a better wing, but really all depends on how his individual season pans out.
    Now you are thinking.

    Use financial flexibility with a decent player to land a really good player.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Now you are thinking.

    Use financial flexibility with a decent player to land a really good player.
    Hahaha, I could get a hang on this stuff.

    Being the new CBA, and your past posts about the need for financial flexibility, and like you said at the top, treadmill teams are a handful in the league, nothing is impossible. Iguodala looks nice to me :P

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    Raptors Republic Rookie JStockton's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    *I have been intending to make this post but no access to keyboard for last week so here goes as I have one at my finger tips now*

    I've made no secret I like what the Raptors have done thus far this off season. In my opinion, the Raps are younger, deeper, and (most importantly) better than they were on April 26, 2012 (last day of season).

    When looking at the roster, 2 things stand out: youth and money.

    #1) Youth - players signed beyond 2012-13 (all ages as of December 31, 2012):

    Gray 28
    Bargnani 27
    Kleiza 27
    Lowry 26
    Amir 25
    Fields 24
    ED 23
    DD* 23
    Acy 22
    TR 21
    JV 20

    *qualifying offer


    #2) Money

    Gray* $3m
    Bargnani $10.75m
    Kleiza** $4.6m
    Lowry $6.2m
    Amir $6.55m
    Fields $6.3m
    ED $3.158m
    Acy* $900k
    TR $2.232
    JV $2.938

    TOTAL: $46.628 in committed salaries for 2013-14 for 10 players.

    DD: qualifying offer - $4.531m; cap hold - $10.03M

    Raptors also hold amnesty that could be used on Bargnani, Kleiza, or Amir to free up nearly $5-$11m.

    Cap Space: depends on what happens with DD, amnesty, and BRI split. Current salary cap is $58M. Lots of young players under contract and only $46.628M in committed salary - key (and dreaded) word is flexibility.

    *estimating contract
    ** assuming option picked up.


    Assuming the Raptors do not make any significant additions in salary this summer or before trade deadline, Raps are likely to find themselves in a very similar situation next year:
    - young and improving team
    - cap flexibilty


    People will likely groan (and rightfully so) because all this flexibility has gone for nothing thus far. 2 rays of hope:
    1) new punitive tax starts in 2013-14 and might be last chance for a treadmill team (Grizz, Philly, whoever) or team going nowhere to unload contracts before more punitive tax kicks in,
    2) luxury tax teams can no longer execute sign and trades after this summer (limited to $3m mini-MLE or minimum contracts).


    Some things that do concern me:
    1) Still no legit franchise talent (Bargnani, JV, or Ross please prove me wrong - or BC cash in some chips and get one!)
    2) playoffs far from a certainty in 2012-13 but a bottom 10 team seems unlikely as well - worst case scenario, just miss the playoffs and lose a 12-14 pick.


    My ultimate wet dream*:
    1) trade for AI sooner than later,
    2) when AI's contract comes off the books, sign Paul George as free agent.

    *ultimate wet dream - let me dream in peace.


    Putting it all together, things are not perfect but things are not near bad, in my opinion, either.
    Did notice that too, but thanks for laying it all out on this post. I am also concerned with the absence of a legit franchise talent and hoping sooooo much that we are proven wrong.

    Reading your insight about the punitive tax makes me realize that you are right. I also hope that someone does unload a franchise player to us.

    Finally, I share your wet dream...even though that sounds bad

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Hahaha, I could get a hang on this stuff.

    Being the new CBA, and your past posts about the need for financial flexibility, and like you said at the top, treadmill teams are a handful in the league, nothing is impossible. Iguodala looks nice to me :P
    For 2 years? Absolutely.

    Much like Gerald Wallace/Jermaine O'Neal he is the type of player I worry about past 30.

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    I like A.I. also, but the 76ers have made moves to pretty much ensure that they don't go into the tax any time soon. I don't think they'll look to move him. I could be wrong though. One can always wish...

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    People keep raving about our improvements this year as if we have a team that can accomplish anything worthwhile yet. Sure, we can get to 40+ wins but so what? Have we sucked for so long that we're satisfied with just that? I'm not saying don't be happy, but let's keep it in perspective. Our new roster is amazing in comparison to last years squad, but in comparison to other teams in the league we're average to slightly above it. Sure we still have 'flexability' but BC has never been able to spin that into anything of value. If I'm MLSE I'm still letting BC walk at the end of the season for simply not making us a good enough team. He's in the business of saving bucks and building a perennially middle-of-the-pack team. That's why he spends a year selling the entire city on the ideas of 'retooling' and 'flexability' but is so quick to jeopardize all of that progress to chase after a 38 year old Steve Nash. For what? Ticket and jersey sales and a little player developement. Let's be real if we're going to ever be a contender we need a new GM. By all means be happy about this roster, but rest assured this is close to about as good as we'll get. 5-6 years and we go to the playoffs twice? We're so used to being crap we get our hopes up when he gives Landry Fields a poison pill to be our starting SF, and then he's considering letting Jose walk for just cash and some picks. Haha Im not impatient, if we're all still Raptors fans then we definitely know patience, but we've got be realistic. With the money and assets we had this season I'm sure other GMs couldve netted more talent. 40-50 wins for the next 3-4 years is an upsetting thought. Later days....

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    Quote jimmyhunter wrote: View Post
    People keep raving about our improvements this year as if we have a team that can accomplish anything worthwhile yet. Sure, we can get to 40+ wins but so what? Have we sucked for so long that we're satisfied with just that? I'm not saying don't be happy, but let's keep it in perspective. Our new roster is amazing in comparison to last years squad, but in comparison to other teams in the league we're average to slightly above it. Sure we still have 'flexability' but BC has never been able to spin that into anything of value. If I'm MLSE I'm still letting BC walk at the end of the season for simply not making us a good enough team. He's in the business of saving bucks and building a perennially middle-of-the-pack team. That's why he spends a year selling the entire city on the ideas of 'retooling' and 'flexability' but is so quick to jeopardize all of that progress to chase after a 38 year old Steve Nash. For what? Ticket and jersey sales and a little player developement. Let's be real if we're going to ever be a contender we need a new GM. By all means be happy about this roster, but rest assured this is close to about as good as we'll get. 5-6 years and we go to the playoffs twice? We're so used to being crap we get our hopes up when he gives Landry Fields a poison pill to be our starting SF, and then he's considering letting Jose walk for just cash and some picks. Haha Im not impatient, if we're all still Raptors fans then we definitely know patience, but we've got be realistic. With the money and assets we had this season I'm sure other GMs couldve netted more talent. 40-50 wins for the next 3-4 years is an upsetting thought. Later days....
    making money is a big thing to these guys. i also think nash would have put us in a better position to win next year then we are in now.

    i am excited now because we are moving forward. not because i think we have a team that can knock down doors and win a conference title or even a division title. but we are looking at the playoffs and that growth should be exciting for us. i am not looking for instant gratification i am gratified in our continued growth and excited to see what steps we take this year. in no way am i satisfied if this was the end product but our boys just passed primary school and they are headed into middle school and i am happy/proud and excited for them.

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    Quote jimmyhunter wrote: View Post
    People keep raving about our improvements this year as if we have a team that can accomplish anything worthwhile yet. Sure, we can get to 40+ wins but so what? Have we sucked for so long that we're satisfied with just that? I'm not saying don't be happy, but let's keep it in perspective. Our new roster is amazing in comparison to last years squad, but in comparison to other teams in the league we're average to slightly above it. Sure we still have 'flexability' but BC has never been able to spin that into anything of value. If I'm MLSE I'm still letting BC walk at the end of the season for simply not making us a good enough team. He's in the business of saving bucks and building a perennially middle-of-the-pack team. That's why he spends a year selling the entire city on the ideas of 'retooling' and 'flexability' but is so quick to jeopardize all of that progress to chase after a 38 year old Steve Nash. For what? Ticket and jersey sales and a little player developement. Let's be real if we're going to ever be a contender we need a new GM. By all means be happy about this roster, but rest assured this is close to about as good as we'll get. 5-6 years and we go to the playoffs twice? We're so used to being crap we get our hopes up when he gives Landry Fields a poison pill to be our starting SF, and then he's considering letting Jose walk for just cash and some picks. Haha Im not impatient, if we're all still Raptors fans then we definitely know patience, but we've got be realistic. With the money and assets we had this season I'm sure other GMs couldve netted more talent. 40-50 wins for the next 3-4 years is an upsetting thought. Later days....
    "Our new roster is amazing in comparison to last years squad" To be honest, when you think about it, that's not really say much is it? I wouldn't say that we're not gonna be that much better than last year, but I feel like we're a fringe playoff team (sorta like Milwaukee). Even though we're not exactly a high caliber playoff team, I feel like we're better off with what we have this year than we did last year. If we can still show that we're a decent team next year, it might be easier for us to get free agents than getting free agents as one of the bottom teams.

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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    "Our new roster is amazing in comparison to last years squad" To be honest, when you think about it, that's not really say much is it? I wouldn't say that we're not gonna be that much better than last year, but I feel like we're a fringe playoff team (sorta like Milwaukee). Even though we're not exactly a high caliber playoff team, I feel like we're better off with what we have this year than we did last year. If we can still show that we're a decent team next year, it might be easier for us to get free agents than getting free agents as one of the bottom teams.
    We may be a fringe playoff team next year, 6-8 spots, than I think that's great. Only to know, unlike Milwaukee, or Philly, we are NOT a treadmill team.

    The youth speaks for itself, we will NOT be an Oklahoma City Thunder team, but the team has the potential to get better every single year. As guys experience, as guys individually learn the game, learn the system, develop and buy into the culture, it could turn into a team that is contending in 3-4 years. Winning over time will make some type of noise, with winning, we can attract certain free agents.

    Someone pointed out to me in the past, winning is a major need to attract others. Making the playoffs in the 6-8 spots, and bettering over time would do so.

    In comes that flexibility. A very important tool with the new CBA, allowing us to make certain moves according to the team needs. The draft has blessed us with Bargnani, Derozan, Ross, and Valanciunas, supposedly our core group, now we add Fields, Lowry, Acy, JL3, and other talent via free agency/trade, would create a group of potential.
    Over the years we win, and guys start declining their options, and testing the market, and we could score on a solid free agent, maybe not a star, but another player who has talent who could make an impact.

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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    We may be a fringe playoff team next year, 6-8 spots, than I think that's great. Only to know, unlike Milwaukee, or Philly, we are NOT a treadmill team.

    The youth speaks for itself, we will NOT be an Oklahoma City Thunder team, but the team has the potential to get better every single year. As guys experience, as guys individually learn the game, learn the system, develop and buy into the culture, it could turn into a team that is contending in 3-4 years. Winning over time will make some type of noise, with winning, we can attract certain free agents.

    Someone pointed out to me in the past, winning is a major need to attract others. Making the playoffs in the 6-8 spots, and bettering over time would do so.

    In comes that flexibility. A very important tool with the new CBA, allowing us to make certain moves according to the team needs. The draft has blessed us with Bargnani, Derozan, Ross, and Valanciunas, supposedly our core group, now we add Fields, Lowry, Acy, JL3, and other talent via free agency/trade, would create a group of potential.
    Over the years we win, and guys start declining their options, and testing the market, and we could score on a solid free agent, maybe not a star, but another player who has talent who could make an impact.
    I agree. I feel like we can slowly inch closer and closer into the playoffs. The only worry a Raptors fan would have over the next two years is whether or not we can convince Lowry to sign an extension. It would really suck if we are only have a rental of Lowry for two years. Hopefully we can start off the future on the right foot and make playoffs next season :P

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    jimmyhunter wrote:
    People keep raving about our improvements this year as if we have a team that can accomplish anything worthwhile yet. Sure, we can get to 40+ wins but so what? Have we sucked for so long that we're satisfied with just that? I'm not saying don't be happy, but let's keep it in perspective. Our new roster is amazing in comparison to last years squad, but in comparison to other teams in the league we're average to slightly above it. Sure we still have 'flexability' but BC has never been able to spin that into anything of value. If I'm MLSE I'm still letting BC walk at the end of the season for simply not making us a good enough team. He's in the business of saving bucks and building a perennially middle-of-the-pack team. That's why he spends a year selling the entire city on the ideas of 'retooling' and 'flexability' but is so quick to jeopardize all of that progress to chase after a 38 year old Steve Nash. For what? Ticket and jersey sales and a little player developement. Let's be real if we're going to ever be a contender we need a new GM. By all means be happy about this roster, but rest assured this is close to about as good as we'll get. 5-6 years and we go to the playoffs twice? We're so used to being crap we get our hopes up when he gives Landry Fields a poison pill to be our starting SF, and then he's considering letting Jose walk for just cash and some picks. Haha Im not impatient, if we're all still Raptors fans then we definitely know patience, but we've got be realistic. With the money and assets we had this season I'm sure other GMs couldve netted more talent. 40-50 wins for the next 3-4 years is an upsetting thought. Later days....
    We are the Toronto Raptors, and you're tryna tell me BC should of fielded a top 3 team this year or some shit? You're complaining about "being amazing compared to last year". Wtf else were we suppose to do. We tried to get nash it failed despite what you think, that wouldve helped us compete a bit more this year, but probably not as mu ch in the long run. If you were as patient as you say you were you'd take a step back and realize that there isnt much any GM can do with a team and a roster that isn't screaming "WE'RE A CONTENDER" when you aren't in a big market. Lots of teams didn't do well this offseason. If anything this offseason showed if you don't have a perennial all-star recruiting for you, or a big market , or a winning team how the fuck are you going to entice ppl to come here outside of making the right trades and making us "amazing compared to last year".

    Yes BC has fucked up plenty, but hes also good at fixing his mistakes, at least we have a GM who makes moves. Would we better with another GM, who knows probably maybe, would we be worse off the answers the exact same. That answer won't change until we start winning games or move cities, or somehow draft the next KD or some shit.

    Stop claiming to be patient cuz its fans like you that make GMs do stupid shit like chase Steve Nash.

  20. #20
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    Maintaining flexibility is key. If we can be a fringe play-off team and remain so for a few years, it's only a matter of time before we become an attractive destination for elite free agents. A winner is what most free agents are looking for. Things like taxes, cold weather, Canada etc are nonsense. As far as BC is concerned, I think MLSE would be wise in picking up his option year after which they'll have a clear idea of whether his rebuilding plan is working or not.

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