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Youth and Financial Freedom: Raps current roster beyond 2012-13

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  • #31
    special1 wrote: View Post
    Dude - if we overpay for free agents we won't have any $$$ left for others on our roster or stud free agents..... Overpaying for mediocre players is not the way to do it!! You have to draft a stud or two.....its the only way....

    LA Lakers (Kobe, Bynum)
    San Antonio (Tim Duncan, Ginobli, Parker)
    Dallas (Nowitski)
    Miami Heat (Wade)
    Boston (Pierce)

    All teams that won a championship within the last 10 years

    OKC (Durant, Westbrook, Harden) - may win it next year

    I would rather trade away players for more draft picks = better chance at finding that stud

    We just gave away a draft pick next year so that we can MAYBE make the playoffs......***

    I just hope Lowry doesn't take off in 2 years after the big disappointment that usually happens in T.O.

    Dont get me wrong.... I'm a Raptors fan for LIFE..... i just think the only person we should be overpaying is a GREAT GM or President.... someone who thinks that its CHAMPIONSHIPs or BUST....
    If everyone on the Raptors lives up to their full potential, then they could easily be a couple pieces away from being a top team in the East. There is no one way to build a team, they can't just blow everything up until they get a stud in the draft

    Comment


    • #32
      special1 wrote: View Post
      Dude - if we overpay for free agents we won't have any $$$ left for others on our roster or stud free agents..... Overpaying for mediocre players is not the way to do it!! You have to draft a stud or two.....its the only way....

      LA Lakers (Kobe, Bynum)
      San Antonio (Tim Duncan, Ginobli, Parker)
      Dallas (Nowitski)
      Miami Heat (Wade)
      Boston (Pierce)

      All teams that won a championship within the last 10 years

      OKC (Durant, Westbrook, Harden) - may win it next year

      I would rather trade away players for more draft picks = better chance at finding that stud

      We just gave away a draft pick next year so that we can MAYBE make the playoffs......***

      I just hope Lowry doesn't take off in 2 years after the big disappointment that usually happens in T.O.

      Dont get me wrong.... I'm a Raptors fan for LIFE..... i just think the only person we should be overpaying is a GREAT GM or President.... someone who thinks that its CHAMPIONSHIPs or BUST....
      The whole point of the thread was to highlight how Toronto (while getting younger, deeper, and better) have also maintained the flexibility to add an established and highly paid star.

      As for drafting a stud, Ross and JV could very well be them. It is unlikely but so are most draft picks, however, a few do 'become' stars.

      Comment


      • #33
        Here's a nice breakdown with a few visuals for us that like to see it in table format:

        http://www.hoopsworld.com/toronto-raptors-team-salary
        “Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”
        ― John Wooden

        Comment


        • #34
          special1 wrote: View Post
          Dude - if we overpay for free agents we won't have any $$$ left for others on our roster or stud free agents..... Overpaying for mediocre players is not the way to do it!! You have to draft a stud or two.....its the only way....

          LA Lakers (Kobe, Bynum)
          San Antonio (Tim Duncan, Ginobli, Parker)
          Dallas (Nowitski)
          Miami Heat (Wade)
          Boston (Pierce)

          All teams that won a championship within the last 10 years

          OKC (Durant, Westbrook, Harden) - may win it next year

          I would rather trade away players for more draft picks = better chance at finding that stud

          We just gave away a draft pick next year so that we can MAYBE make the playoffs......***

          I just hope Lowry doesn't take off in 2 years after the big disappointment that usually happens in T.O.

          Dont get me wrong.... I'm a Raptors fan for LIFE..... i just think the only person we should be overpaying is a GREAT GM or President.... someone who thinks that its CHAMPIONSHIPs or BUST....
          *sigh* There is no solution that always equals to a superstar in the draft... If there was, every team would probably try to tank..

          Drafting a 'stud' or a star, is extremely hard to come by.. If all you do is trade and trade for potential, how would you know that the potential lives up to the hype?

          Notice how Tim Duncan was the only one drafted number 1 out of all those groups of players? We have 4 years past of drafting in the lottery, you are expecting the team to continually settle for my by trading our recently past draft picks?

          Not even gonna bother, stay on course.
          Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

          Comment


          • #35
            Great read explaining some of the issues related to the new CBA. Relevant to this thread for the financial freedom the Raptors do have moving forward.


            http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/1...uild-mavericks

            Despite his unprecedented posture of restraint in the months that have passed since Dallas' championship, I wouldn't count on Cuban being quiet and timid -- maybe strategic is a better word -- for much longer.

            "I just think there's a different approach," Cuban told CBSSports.com during an interview at Summer League, which wrapped up Sunday in Las Vegas. "You see what's happening with teams that are up against the financial limits and it's impacting their behavior. But we haven't seen what's going to happen with the trade limitations and things like that -- not being able to do sign-and-trades, all that kind of stuff."

            For a deep-pocketed owner who's always been willing to trade and deficit-spend his way to success, how is this new model better? Why would he fight for a system that stops him from spending and trading?

            "Is it better? It's just different," Cuban said. "The rules are the rules. Look at Chicago -- they got rid of three really good rotation players because of the new CBA. Look at New York -- they weren't able to match on Jeremy Lin. Under the old CBA, it would've been a no-brainer. And that's before the trade limitations and different team-building impacts come into play, and those don't start until next year. There's some teams that just are oblivious to them that I think it's going to hurt, but we'll see. Maybe I'm wrong."

            Don't bet on it. Cuban was always the renegade willing to spend and take on bad contracts to keep his payroll high and his team's success constant, because that's what the rules allowed. League negotiators admitted during the lockout that the old luxury-tax system didn't have the intended effect of suppressing the payrolls of the top-spending teams, and Cuban's Mavs were Exhibit A in the conference room during all those months of negotiations.
            Next summer, the kind of sign-and-trade arrangements that have sent Chandler, Marcus Camby and Raymond Felton to the Knicks -- and Steve Nash to the Lakers -- won't be permitted for teams that are over the $4 million luxury tax "apron." Further, teams that encroach on that apron will be limited to the smaller, $3 million mid-level exception in free agency and otherwise would face a payroll freeze at $4 million above the tax. Even with the league projecting a $75 million tax line in 2013-14 -- the first year of enhanced tax rates and prohibitions on tax teams doing sign-and-trades -- the high-payroll teams simply can't keep piling on year after year.

            "The financial side isn't the big hurdle," Cuban said. "That's just money. It's the flexibility. I don't want to be in a position where I can't do a sign-and-trade for somebody if that can help my team. I can't get a free agent because I have no cap room -- all I have is $3 million -- and I can't do a sign-and-trade. The trades are limited to 125 percent [in matching salary], so you can't be that team that takes on a bunch of bad contracts. ... That's how we've always done it, taking somebody else's mistakes."
            So think of what Cuban has done since the end of the 2010-11 season as a pause rather than a permanent change of direction. Cuban will still be able to chase free agents, acquire free agents in sign-and-trades and take on other teams' bad contracts. He just can't already be over the luxury-tax threshold when he does -- meaning he'll have to pick his spots. This was one of the key points the owners emphasized in getting not only financial concessions from the players, but also restrictions on how much and how often teams would be able to exceed the tax line.

            "It's tougher to put finishing pieces in place," Cuban said. "And it's tougher to trade your way to a championship team if you're over the tax. You're going to have to take a step back and create flexibility in order to do the trades because otherwise, if you're already over the tax, you're stuck.

            "Everybody's saying, 'Oh, there's all these people spending all this money,' " Cuban said. "There's what, seven teams that went crazy early on and spent all the money, and 23 did nothing except re-sign their own guys or a little play here or there? So I think it's dramatically changed the activities. Maybe we're all wrong and the seven teams that went crazy are right. We'll see."
            And while Cuban's response to the new rules would seem to be dead on, they also could have the unintended effect of causing him to strike out on another free-agent target next summer. Or not. Let's explain.

            If the Magic decide not to trade Howard and instead call his bluff and hang onto him for the entire season, where's he going next summer as a free agent? The team that has long been Howard's preferred destination, the Nets, won't have cap room to sign him and won't be able to do a sign-and-trade because they'll be over the tax apron. Ditto for the Lakers. Even the handful of teams that would be permitted to do a sign-and-trade would only be able to give Howard the same four-year deal with 4.5 percent raises that he could get by signing outright with a team that has room.

            Translation: Unless Howard wants to take a four-year deal with the Mavs -- who were on his original, three-team list along with the Nets and Lakers -- he might decide he's better off staying in Orlando, the only team that would be able to offer him a five-year deal in excess of $100 million. It's just another potential consequence of a labor deal whose intricacies are still playing out. And how they play out will have everything to say about whether the owners will be back at the bargaining table in 2017, when either side can opt out, clamoring for the hard-cap system they wanted all along.

            "Actually, it's better than I thought it would be, but I still don't think it solved all our problems," Cuban said of the labor agreement. "We're drowning in two feet of water instead of 10 feet of water. But hopefully, it gets us closer for the next time."

            Comment


            • #36
              What many Raptor fans seem to have missed: the rules of the game have changed!

              Opportunistic is the name of the new game!

              Each time Hawks GM Danny Ferry does an interview, the recurring theme is how he’s being “opportunistic.”

              As in, after trading Joe Johnson and clearing the books after 2011-12, the Hawks now have the flexibility to take advantage of pretty much any opportunity that comes along.

              That’s true, but now what?

              The Hawks already missed out on one opportunity when Dwight Howard was sent to the Lakers before Ferry could even measure Dwight’s feelings about returning home. Next summer Ferry probably will get another crack at Howard (though the Lakers will own Howard’s Bird rights) and any of the other star free agents set to hit the market.

              Financial flexibility is good, and there will be other opportunities, but how to turn that potential into a superstar player(s) that is (are) essential to competing for championships?

              “Read an article about what Mark Cuban is doing,” Ferry said.

              Cuban struck out with his plan of clearing cap space to acquire star players last summer. He’s since resisted the urge to double down on payroll because he believes that, eventually, teams with financial flexibility will benefit from specific CBA rules that kick in starting in 2013-14.

              “I just think there’s a different approach,” Cuban told CBSSports.com. “You see what’s happening with teams that are up against the financial limits and it’s impacting their behavior. But we haven’t seen what’s going to happen with the trade limitations and things like that — not being able to do sign-and-trades, all that kind of stuff.”

              The more punitive tax rate is just one aspect of the rules meant to curtail the big spenders. The rules also stipulate that teams with payrolls more than $4 million above the tax line can’t execute sign-and-trades, can acquire less salary in trades than non-taxpaying teams, and have a smaller mid-level exception and no bi-annual exception.


              Cuban is betting those rules will lead to high-payroll teams being unable to acquire superstars, leaving those with cap space in a stronger position to make deals for those players. Ferry is predicting the same.

              “It’s the same path,” Ferry said. “We don’t have [Dirk] Nowitzki but we have more assets. We have good players. [The Mavs] are piecing things together to keep flexibility to stay competitive. On some level, we are in a similar mode as what Dallas is doing.

              “With Josh [Smith] and Jeff [Teague] and Al [Horford] and flexibility around it and draft choices ahead. I think we are positioned well to be opportunistic whether that’s trade [or] whether that’s free agency in the future. It’s not an exact path. It’s about having a situation where you can be opportunistic.”

              There are reasons to believe the Hawks are in a better position than Dallas. The 2012-13 Hawks, on paper at least, are comparable to the 2012-13 Mavericks. Smith and Horford may be more attractive trade targets now than Nowitzki is 34-years old and owed nearly $44 million over the next two years. The Hawks also have multiple draft picks.

              The counter to those arguments is that the Mavs under Cuban have a much better organizational reputation than the Hawks. That means that, theoretically, they have a better chance of landing superstar free agents or keeping them for the long term after trading for them.

              Now that Ferry has gained the flexibility he coveted, the next step is trying to make the Hawks the kind of franchise where the best players want to work.

              “I’m trying to build well from the inside out,” Ferry said. “We need to build an organizational pride from within. We are not hinging our program on cap space or anything like that. We are hinging it on building a good program and having flexibility to make a trade or do free agency or do whatever.

              “To get centric on cap space, [focusing on] would a free agent come here, that’s not what we are doing right now. That’s not the mode we are in right now. We are in a mode of, ‘Let’s build on an organizational pride and build an even better run machine as an organization.’

              “From there, pride will grow and I think the opportunities that are out there, we are in a good position to be in the game, whether that’s a trade or a free agent or whatever that is.”


              http://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2012/08/1...id=blogs_hawks

              Building from the inside-out?
              Being opportunistic?

              Sounds like approaches being employed north of the border as well while the faithful and 'true' fans stomp their feet and throw a tantrum.

              Comment


              • #37
                "But which free agents are coming to Toronto??? Waaaaaaaaahhhhh!!! I don't understand the concept of flexibility. Waaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!!"

                Sincerely,

                Jamshid

                Comment


                • #38
                  Nilanka wrote: View Post
                  "But which free agents are coming to Toronto??? Waaaaaaaaahhhhh!!! I don't understand the concept of flexibility. Waaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!!"

                  Sincerely,

                  Jamshid
                  Seriously.

                  But it is not fair to speak of him in the forums since he doesn't have access.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    He brings forum discussions to the main page. I'm just returning the favour.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Nilanka wrote: View Post
                      He brings forum discussions to the main page. I'm just returning the favour.
                      I should have put a smiley face in my previous reply.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Ibaka signs 4 year, $40M deal with OKC. OKC's payroll now up to around $73M and that does not include Harden's extension or even qualifying offer.

                        http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--se...homa-city.html


                        Now that OKC is in to luxury tax territory, next season if OKC were to resign Harden to a $12M deal that would actually be $33.25M per season (salary plus $1.50 tax on first $5M, $1.75 on second $5M, $2.50 tax on final $2M = $21.25 in tax).

                        Harden is a great player but is he worth $33.25M per season?


                        **Not saying he is coming to Toronto but the odds seem greater he'd be in Toronto in 2013-14 versus OKC**


                        EDIT

                        In the above I forgot to take in to account the contracts that were NOT guaranteed. They have about $80M in contracts but only $59M in unguaranteed contracts (including Ibaka's new deal) for 7 players.

                        This is probably not the big deal I initially thought it was as they could resign Harden for close to max or max, round out the roster with minimum contracts and be looking at a tax bill around $9-10M versus the scenario I gave above.


                        EDIT 2.0:

                        Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
                        Serge Ibaka deal is 4 years, $48 million, league source tells Y! Sports.
                        That seems more realistic. The $10M would have been a bargain based on the contracts given out to bigs of late.
                        Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Aug 18, 2012, 07:47 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          Ibaka signs 4 year, $40M deal with OKC. OKC's payroll now up to around $73M and that does not include Harden's extension or even qualifying offer.

                          http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--se...homa-city.html


                          Now that OKC is in to luxury tax territory, next season if OKC were to resign Harden to a $12M deal that would actually be $33.25M per season (salary plus $1.50 tax on first $5M, $1.75 on second $5M, $2.50 tax on final $2M = $21.25 in tax).

                          Harden is a great player but is he worth $33.25M per season?


                          **Not saying he is coming to Toronto but the odds seem greater he'd be in Toronto in 2013-14 versus OKC**


                          EDIT

                          In the above I forgot to take in to account the contracts that were NOT guaranteed. They have about $80M in contracts but only $59M in unguaranteed contracts (including Ibaka's new deal) for 7 players.

                          This is probably not the big deal I initially thought it was as they could resign Harden for close to max or max, round out the roster with minimum contracts and be looking at a tax bill around $9-10M versus the scenario I gave above.


                          EDIT 2.0:



                          That seems more realistic. The $10M would have been a bargain based on the contracts given out to bigs of late.
                          I think that the extension of Ibaka first could foreshadow things down the road. Depending on how Harden plays this season, and how Perry Jones III pans out, big things could change for OKC.

                          With your idea of Harden in Toronto makes me smile. Harden > Derozan any day of the week. Although, the pay for Derozan would certainly be cheaper if I'm not mistaken, and Derozan has this year to prove what kind of player he is.
                          Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            **Time to update this with DeRozan's contract added in to the mix.**


                            The Raps are younger, deeper, and (most importantly) better than they were on April 26, 2012 (last day of season 2011-12 season).

                            When looking at the roster, 2 things stand out: youth and money.

                            #1) Youth - players signed beyond 2012-13 (all ages as of December 31, 2012):

                            John Lucas III 30
                            Gray 28
                            McGuire 27
                            Bargnani 27
                            Kleiza 27
                            Lowry 26
                            Amir 25
                            Fields 24
                            ED 23
                            DD 23
                            Acy 22
                            TR 21
                            JV 20

                            #2) Money

                            Gray $2.7m
                            Bargnani $10.75m
                            Kleiza* $4.6m
                            Lowry $6.2m
                            Amir $6.55m
                            Fields $6.3m
                            ED $3.158m
                            DD $9.5M
                            Acy $790k
                            TR $2.232
                            JV $2.938

                            TOTAL: $55.718 in committed salaries for 2013-14 for 11 players (Team option on JL3 for $1.6M and McGuire for $1.1M - $58.42M for 13 players).


                            Raptors also hold amnesty that could be used on Bargnani, Kleiza, or Amir to free up $4.6m-$11m. Kleiza is the only one I'd say is a possibility.


                            Cap Space: depends on what happens with amnesty and BRI split. Current salary cap is $58M. Rumours of adding up to $5M. Right now, if things stayed as they are, Raps would have Calderon's Bird Rights, mid-level exception, and minimum contrats. If cap space goes up $5M, it likely does nothing for the Raptors as to use that space they'd have to renounce Calderon and the MLE. If cap space goes up $5M and Raps amnesty Kleiza (or he doesn't pick up his option), things get interesting as that would be about $10M.


                            People will likely groan (and rightfully so) because all this talk of flexibility the last 2 years created nothing. The new CBA will limit luxury tax teams as they can no longer execute sign and trades and are limited to $3m mini-MLE or minimum contracts. The Raptors are not in this situation but they are hardly positioned to make a lopsided financial anymore either. I think it is fair to say flexibility in Toronto is now dead and gone.


                            Some things that concern me:
                            1) Still no legit franchise talent - although JV is certainly very, very promising - fingers crossed, knock on wood.
                            2) playoffs far from a certainty in 2012-13 but a bottom 10 team seems unlikely as well - worst case scenario, just miss the playoffs and lose a 12-14 pick. For adding Lowry, that is worth it.
                            3) $20M tied up in DeRozan, Fields, and Kleiza for 2013-14 and $15.8M in DD and Fields for 2014-15.
                            4) Colangelo. No longer do I have faith in the guy. Too many similar mistakes to think he has learned from them.
                            5) Few trade assets.


                            Looking at everything as a whole, I am not as optimistic as I was when this original thread was started in July. However, this has been a fun exercise because I am not as down as I was since first learning of the signing of DD last night.


                            Reasons for optimism:
                            1) still room for players to grow. While I don't believe it, DD could play 81 games as he did in the preseason and/or be worth $9.5M per season. JV is certainly nowhere near his potential. Ross is still a promising prospect - if he becomes an Arron Afflalo I'll be tickled pink (until he is given $40M).
                            2) The Raptors get defensive stops in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters.
                            3) Lowry.
                            4) For the first time in Colangelo's history, barring a trade, it looks like there will be continuity in the roster next season. It is highly likely that 13 guys return to the 2013-14 edition of the Toronto Raptors.


                            Reason for blind and unfounded hope:
                            1) Maybe somehow, someway BC puts together a trade for a difference making wing.



                            So, in conclusion, it looks like the Raptors barring trades, are what they are for the next 163 games. Despite the meltdown in the last 4-5 minutes versus Indiana, that might not be a bad thing afterall. Keep pounding the ROCK.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Nice post Matt, certainly puts things in perspective and I agree with you on it all for the most part.

                              I feel like a idiot because for the longest time I was a Colangelo apologist and now I'd be fine with them firing him during the season and bringing someone more competent in.
                              @sweatpantsjer

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                ...So, in conclusion, it looks like the Raptors barring trades, are what they are for the next 163 games. Despite the meltdown in the last 4-5 minutes versus Indiana, that might not be a bad thing afterall. Keep pounding the ROCK.
                                Heeeees Baaaaaack.

                                That's the Matt we all know and love. You threw me for a loop there Big Guy, with the pessimism creeping in. The Raps are better in numerous ways than they were last year, and there is still the possibility of BC pulling some breed of rabbit out of his hat this year or next off-season.

                                It's time to start talking about a bar night game watching. Or a get together in the restaurant at the ACC. Let's start planning now. I will leave it up to the Brainiacs in this bunch to pick a fun game that the Raps are guaranteed to win. Just tell me which night and which bar, or other location...I'm in. Hey, maybe someone's house or apartment. That's even better if I don't have to negotiate downtown TO. Anything happening in the East side of Toronto?

                                I guess this deserves it's own thread. Look for it.

                                Comment

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