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Thread: 2012 Updated Off-Season Grades - ESPN Insider

  1. #21
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Excellently put. Everything else is just mouth noise.
    You got it right. Ford is probably just a tad pissed at BC or whoever his insider was on the Raps for giving him Waiters & Lamb as the Rap choices. I am glad it wasnt Waiters....he didnt look so good at Vegas. I remember that on the Melo deal the Nuggets wanted Fields instead of Wilson Chandler which was refused by the Knicks. Chandler now has a contract for 5 yrs and 37 mill. I would say that the two are not that far apart in talent/upside but quite a difference on contract terms. WC also is coming off a hip procedure. So we shall see.

  2. #22
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    Well, Fields' contract honestly is a blemish, as in it's not perfect, but it's not a huge blemish. You can argue the grade should not have dropped by that much in his completely fictional and arbitrary marking system but the next time Chad Ford has an impact on anything on the court will be the first.

    W. Chandler is paid slightly more, has slightly better stats and is slightly older. I think Fields is a better fit, and hopefully his play reflects that and his numbers resemble his rookie year, not last season.

  3. #23
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I thought Asik was 3 years and $25M? $8.3 per year?
    You are correct.

    And for what it's worth, I'd much rather have Omer Asik than DeAndre Jordan. I think Asik is one hell of a defensive player - better than Noah certainly - and that he will give more than fair value to the Rockets if he can stay on the floor for 28+ mpg a game.

  4. #24
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    You are correct.

    And for what it's worth, I'd much rather have Omer Asik than DeAndre Jordan. I think Asik is one hell of a defensive player - better than Noah certainly - and that he will give more than fair value to the Rockets if he can stay on the floor for 28+ mpg a game.
    That is along the lines of what Morey was saying. He also said something about 10+ rebounds per game if given opportunity. I believe he is a big advanced stats guy.

    Like Fields, time will tell.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    You got it right. Ford is probably just a tad pissed at BC or whoever his insider was on the Raps for giving him Waiters & Lamb as the Rap choices. I am glad it wasnt Waiters....he didnt look so good at Vegas. I remember that on the Melo deal the Nuggets wanted Fields instead of Wilson Chandler which was refused by the Knicks. Chandler now has a contract for 5 yrs and 37 mill. I would say that the two are not that far apart in talent/upside but quite a difference on contract terms. WC also is coming off a hip procedure. So we shall see.
    Those are some interesting points that I had forgot or had not thought of.

    Imagine if the Raps had acquired WC last year, he played as he did, and then needed the surgery. WoW! Can you talk about livid and the call for BC's head?

    I was a pretty big fan of going after Chandler but the hip surgery makes him a big question mark moving forward.

    Between Chandler and Fields, I'm not sure who I would rather from a basketball perspective at this point in time - only due to surgery. No doubt Chandler is more of a prototypical SF though. If you look at TheNBAGeek.com comparison engine, the choice is clear - by a landslide.

  6. #26
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    my understanding is the hip procedure wasn't that big of a deal...they just take longer to heal because you engage your core (just below your balls to just above your belly button) for almost every single activity you do from taking a poop to getting out of bed. You can't isolate and rest the way you can an ankle or knee etc... Chandler will be fine though.

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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I don't like Chad Ford. I have no specific reason...I just feel like should we be at a bar he would likely say something to annoy me and catch a back hand.
    +1

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I guess the question about Landry Fields' contract is what we could have gotten instead. Fields is not going to be a terrible starter. He'll be decent. But could we have gotten better for the amount spent? I've listed some small(ish) contracts signed during this offseason for 2s and 3s:

    OJ Mayo: $8.5m/2yr with Dallas
    Anthony Randolph: $6m/3yr with Denver
    Michael Beasley: $18m/3yr with Phoenix
    Nick Young: $6m/1yr with Philadelphia
    Danny Green: $12m/3yr with San Antonio
    J.R. Smith: $5.6m/2yr with New York
    Shannon Brown: $7m/2yr with Phoenix
    Steve Novak: $15m/4yr with New York
    Gerald Green: $10.5m/3yr with Indiana
    Randy Foye: $2.5m/1yr with Utah
    Ronnie Brewer: $1m/1yr with New York

    Not saying we could have gotten any of these guys, but there are some bargain basement prices in this list. Let me just say I'm happy with Landry Fields as our starting SF this year. But you can't deny there were some really nice deals that make ours with Landry look pretty horrible.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I guess the question about Landry Fields' contract is what we could have gotten instead. Fields is not going to be a terrible starter. He'll be decent. But could we have gotten better for the amount spent? I've listed some small(ish) contracts signed during this offseason for 2s and 3s:

    OJ Mayo: $8.5m/2yr with Dallas
    Anthony Randolph: $6m/3yr with Denver
    Michael Beasley: $18m/3yr with Phoenix
    Nick Young: $6m/1yr with Philadelphia
    Danny Green: $12m/3yr with San Antonio
    J.R. Smith: $5.6m/2yr with New York
    Shannon Brown: $7m/2yr with Phoenix
    Steve Novak: $15m/4yr with New York
    Gerald Green: $10.5m/3yr with Indiana
    Randy Foye: $2.5m/1yr with Utah
    Ronnie Brewer: $1m/1yr with New York

    Not saying we could have gotten any of these guys, but there are some bargain basement prices in this list. Let me just say I'm happy with Landry Fields as our starting SF this year. But you can't deny there were some really nice deals that make ours with Landry look pretty horrible.
    Nick Young is getting $6m a year and Ronnie Brewer is only getting $1m?? wooow
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  10. #30
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Have to agree.

    I don't think the contract is good by any stretch of the imagination but it is not THAT bad.

    The thing that pisses me off is people continuing with the $20M. It is $18.75M - $6.25M per season.

    He is likely overpaid by about $2M per year but given restricted free agency in general, one has to overpay to begin with.

    I'd be very happy at $4M but at $4M he'd be a Knick.


    The thing that really bugs me is that people think the Raptors had to overpay Landry to kill the Nash sign and trade to the Knicks. The moment Landry signed that offer sheet, whether it was for $1M or $20M annually, the trade was blocked because NY wouldn't have been able to match it and trade him in the summer, they would've had to wait until Jan 15th. The Raps had to overpay to keep NY from matching, although Colangelo did say the offer may have served a dual purpose. Either way Matt, I agree that people need to get their facts straight before setting off a firestorm of anti-BC comments. Even at $6.25M i'm happy with the signing.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    If Colangelo didn't actually want him, could he have offered lower and still put the kibosh on Nash-to-Knicks?
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  12. #32
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I guess the question about Landry Fields' contract is what we could have gotten instead. Fields is not going to be a terrible starter. He'll be decent. But could we have gotten better for the amount spent? I've listed some small(ish) contracts signed during this offseason for 2s and 3s:

    OJ Mayo: $8.5m/2yr with Dallas
    Anthony Randolph: $6m/3yr with Denver
    Michael Beasley: $18m/3yr with Phoenix
    Nick Young: $6m/1yr with Philadelphia
    Danny Green: $12m/3yr with San Antonio
    J.R. Smith: $5.6m/2yr with New York
    Shannon Brown: $7m/2yr with Phoenix
    Steve Novak: $15m/4yr with New York
    Gerald Green: $10.5m/3yr with Indiana
    Randy Foye: $2.5m/1yr with Utah
    Ronnie Brewer: $1m/1yr with New York

    Not saying we could have gotten any of these guys, but there are some bargain basement prices in this list. Let me just say I'm happy with Landry Fields as our starting SF this year. But you can't deny there were some really nice deals that make ours with Landry look pretty horrible.
    Interesting take on Field's. Everyone is so caught up on how much he's paid, but what is his contract like compared to other FAs or RFAs?

    The only players that jump out at me as a bargain are Young, D. Green and Brewer. But with Young, he's a shoot first, ask question wing man that would make Bargnani's "volume shooting" look efficient. Green and Brewer would be the only players that I would see as a "good fit" for the Raptors. But then you need to ask the question, would either of those guys sign in Toronto for the price they signed in SA and NY, respectively? Out of the two, I think Brewer is the only one who would've even had a slight chance to sign here. Green is a integral part of a high tier team. You could even argue that Fields is a better or equal defender when comparing him to Green and much better offensively than Brewer. Finally, are all of these guys here RFAs or FA?

    I like Field's and I hope to see more of his rookie numbers here than last seasons. Is his contract a blemish? Sure, but in a market where you need to overpay for FA and really overpay for RFAs it could be worse...

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    If Colangelo didn't actually want him, could he have offered lower and still put the kibosh on Nash-to-Knicks?
    Fields would have had to accept the offer. They could offer $4M but if Fields balks at it, then there is no offer on the table that NY could match. Ultimately I think BC wanted Fields even if Nash did not sign with us since the offer was so generous and it would make the Knicks think twice before matching because of the poison pill.

    But that's typical Colangelo. When has he ever offered a contract to a free agent that was not questionable (outside of those very small deals like Carter, Butler, Magloire, Forbes, etc)? It's one of the things I find most frustrating with him. Is it because we are in Canada and he has to overpay or is Bryan just always that generous?

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I guess the question about Landry Fields' contract is what we could have gotten instead. Fields is not going to be a terrible starter. He'll be decent. But could we have gotten better for the amount spent? I've listed some small(ish) contracts signed during this offseason for 2s and 3s:

    OJ Mayo: $8.5m/2yr with Dallas
    Anthony Randolph: $6m/3yr with Denver
    Michael Beasley: $18m/3yr with Phoenix
    Nick Young: $6m/1yr with Philadelphia
    Danny Green: $12m/3yr with San Antonio
    J.R. Smith: $5.6m/2yr with New York
    Shannon Brown: $7m/2yr with Phoenix
    Steve Novak: $15m/4yr with New York
    Gerald Green: $10.5m/3yr with Indiana
    Randy Foye: $2.5m/1yr with Utah
    Ronnie Brewer: $1m/1yr with New York

    Not saying we could have gotten any of these guys, but there are some bargain basement prices in this list. Let me just say I'm happy with Landry Fields as our starting SF this year. But you can't deny there were some really nice deals that make ours with Landry look pretty horrible.
    The thing about the list though is Mayo, Young, Green, Brown, and Foye are all 2-guards.

    Randolph, Beasley, and Novak could be argued as PF's or SF's but there is a saying if you are debating SF/PF most likely they are a PF.

    That leaves Smith (2/3), Brewer (2/3), and Green in addition to the tweeners.

    Smith is a pass for me.
    Green is certainly interesting.
    Brewer at $1.4M is an absolute steal but he was not available until many free agent deals were already verbally agreed to.
    Novak is a specialty player with NO defense or rebounding.
    Beasley is a no for me.
    Randolph is a no as well.


    So when removing the strictly SG's, I like the signing of Fields...... even though he is over paid by about $2M but that is the cost of free agency and restricted free agency in particular.

  15. #35
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    I think D. Green was a case of being a pretty good fit for the Spurs system (even though he stunk in the playoffs). He'd be asked to do more in Toronto and I'm not sure he can handle it. He was almost out of the league before being part of the success in San Antonio.

    Mostly everyone is cheap for a reason. Brewer would be interesting but I don't think he would play ahead of Kleiza anyway.

  16. #36
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    i think fields is better than most of the past few Sf's we've had. Better than jamario moon, Antoine wright, and possibly Turkyglue too

  17. #37
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    i think fields is better than most of the past few Sf's we've had. Better than jamario moon, Antoine wright, and possibly Turkyglue too
    Sadly, Fields is probably the best SF we've had since Jalen Rose.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  18. #38
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Sadly, Fields is probably the best SF we've had since Jalen Rose.
    isn't that sorta a good thing? he still has lots of room to grow

  19. #39
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    I thought Jalen Rose was a point-guard? But, we've only had two good small forwards in our existence, in my opinion, Carter sg/sf, and matrix...
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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    I thought Jalen Rose was a point-guard? But, we've only had two good small forwards in our existence, in my opinion, Carter sg/sf, and matrix...
    T-Mac?

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