Agreed, and 5th at the All-Star break is a team that would be lucky to make it to the 2nd round and we weren't good enough to beat any of the teams above us at that point.Matt52 wrote:
We had no chance to win anything, but good work on bolding part of my post and then basically agreeing with it in different words.
Sorry, but you are confusing an opinion with a fact.
The perception remains because there is a very real possibility he did mislead Toronto. The very fact he refused to give Toronto/MLSE an interview is yet another piece of circumstantial evidence supporting the idea his decision to leave Toronto was made up in advance.
No one knows what he told Colangelo or the organization in private. Personally, I don't believe he told them, "I want out" or "I am not going to resign."
This thread has definitely got off track but it isn't about "boo-hoo Bosh left us." The whole issue, at this point, for Rap fans appears to be about the complaint BC returned 'nothing' for Bosh. For those who say, "BC should have got more!!!" well how much more is he going to get for a guy refusing to sign an extension with ANY other team? The only team willing to take him on without an extension was Houston. But what were they willing to offer? Aaron Brooks? Shoot first PG on a team already with 2 other mediocre starters? Scola? Another UFA who is a big step down and was eventually resigned for a horrible contract given his age and declining ability. Ariza? Landry? Sure but how is that going to help Toronto? Ariza already spurned Toronto despite more money and had Turk at SF and just drafted DeRozan at SG. The Raps didn't need another backup PF.
The Raptors were better off doing what they did: play out the season and the at-the-time very likely playoff berth rather than taking on players that would not have helped in the event Bosh left for nothing. Taking the Rockets deal would have only further exacerbated the problem the team already had with Bosh: no flexibility or cap room to improve placing cap of a .500 team on any future prospects.
In the end the best thing likely has happened for Toronto. The Raptors are no worse off than when Bosh was here. At the time they had a max contract with no supporting cast and little-to-no ability to acquire talent upgrades. Now they have a supporting cast and 2 lottery picks with no max contract talent but they still have the ability to get one. The Raps could easily make a move or 2 to create room to sign a max contract in free agency or possibly take advantage of new CBA/tax rules and get one via trade. Both are long shots but so is drafting a franchise talent.
So a team that was in the lottery the previous season with 33 wins is now 5th at all-star weekend and (if memory serves correct) is a top 5 team in the league since December goes and trades their perennial, 25 year old All-Star to the only team wiling to take him on without an extension for basically scraps that would have made the Raptors no better long term (and most likely worse) than they currently were and that goes over well with the fan base? C'mon.
Games are played for a reason. You think Philly would have beat Chicago without Rose getting injured? Extreme example? Yes but you play the games and let the chips fall where they may. Unfortunately a perfect storm of events happened immediately at the trade deadline (Bosh sprained ankle) and the season fell a part.
The reply to golden and the trade with Houston is also applicable to this post but I won't bother going in to that again.
Last edited by Matt52; Mon Aug 13th, 2012 at 02:24 PM. Reason: word left out
Matt, this is really weak compared to your normal high standards. Anything is possible, yes, but the circumstantial evidence is extremely consistent with Toronto being the worst case scenario & lowest probability option from Bosh's perspective, right from the moment he didn't sign the extension up until the Miami S&T. It's as simple as that, yet you still have some posters stating defacto that Bosh 'lied and misled' because something that had almost no chance of happening, actually didn't happen. Bosh kept all his options open right until the end. He said he would and he did. That's smart business.
Sorry for taking this thread on a 1000km off-road detour. I'm done on this.
Last edited by golden; Mon Aug 13th, 2012 at 04:58 PM.
I missed these two quotes but this is spot on.BC is paid a lot of money to assess risk/reward and plan scenarios to mitigate risk
The entire Bosh scenario, as far as I'm concerned, was just terrible risk management.
The Reward - Chris Bosh as a franchise player at a max deal
The Risk - the value of Chris Bosh in a trade from 2008-2010 + the cost of attempts to retain Bosh along the way
Factor in the question of whether Bosh would ever even resign no matter what happened, and it was buying a $100 lottery ticket, at 100 - 1 odds that paid out $101. Just a complete waste.
Once again there is a very real possibility Bosh lied and mislead. The fact it doesn't jive with your opinion of events doesn't make it any less of a possibility. The only people who know that for certain are Bosh, his agent, and Colangelo. What we do know is Bosh's public statements about his preferences were nothing like what actually happened.
Considering you quoted my reply but left out the most relevant 2/3's of the post, I will post it again:
In conclusion, in my opinion:This thread has definitely got off track but it isn't about "boo-hoo Bosh left us." The whole issue, at this point, for Rap fans appears to be about the complaint BC returned 'nothing' for Bosh. For those who say, "BC should have got more!!!" well how much more is he going to get for a guy refusing to sign an extension with ANY other team? The only team willing to take him on without an extension was Houston. But what were they willing to offer? Aaron Brooks? Shoot first PG on a team already with 2 other mediocre starters? Scola? Another UFA who is a big step down and was eventually resigned for a horrible contract given his age and declining ability. Ariza? Landry? Sure but how is that going to help Toronto? Ariza already spurned Toronto despite more money and had Turk at SF and just drafted DeRozan at SG. The Raps didn't need another backup PF.
The Raptors were better off doing what they did: play out the season and the at-the-time very likely playoff berth rather than taking on players that would not have helped in the event Bosh left for nothing. Taking the Rockets deal would have only further exacerbated the problem the team already had with Bosh: no flexibility or cap room to improve placing cap of a .500 team on any future prospects.
In the end the best thing likely has happened for Toronto. The Raptors are no worse off than when Bosh was here. At the time they had a max contract with no supporting cast and little-to-no ability to acquire talent upgrades. Now they have a supporting cast and 2 lottery picks with no max contract talent but they still have the ability to get one. The Raps could easily make a move or 2 to create room to sign a max contract in free agency or possibly take advantage of new CBA/tax rules and get one via trade. Both are long shots but so is drafting a franchise talent.
1) The Raps had very little leverage to get any value for Bosh due to no extension on his part with ANYONE,
2) The Raps were better doing what they did rather than taking back bad contracts with Houston,
3) The Raps are in a better place now than they would have been trading for Ariza, Scola, Landry, or Brooks.
When it became apparent that trading Bosh might be a legit option he had already refused to sign an extension with anyone. At that point his trade value was already diminished. Houston's bits and pieces were all that was on the table. Looking at Morey's history in attempts to land a big time player he has a history (according to HoopsWorld.com writers - namely the Rocket guy Bill Ingram who is useless except when it comes to Houston) of overvaluing players and prospects at the bargaining table which is why he lost out on Howard.
The argument here is Bosh should have been traded in 2008 when they were one year removed from an Atlantic division championship and still a playoff team lead by a perennial 23/24 year old 20/10 all star who was 1 year in to an extension.
The next argument is he should have been to trade him in 2009. That is not a bad point - with the benefit of hindsight.
2010 is not an option because he had the opt out which made financial sense for him to exercise. He was not going to sign an extension with ANY team nor was he willing to waive his player option for year 4 or 5 of his contract. No team was going to give a fair trade in that situation.
People make it sound so easy. It is pretty much like the guy who says, "Oh yeah. If I was in the market I totally would have sold out in October 2007, bought back in March 2009, sold in early May 2010 and actually shorted for that flash crash, bought again in July 2010, shorted in very early August 2011 with leverage, bought back in October 2011." Wow, that is impressive. How would you have done that? "Oh quite easy. The signs were all there in the papers." Really? Well shit. What is going to happen this fall? "Ask me in the winter."
Trading Bosh became a 'legit option' the minute he turned down a contract extension.
People were saying that Bosh was leaving as early as 2008. Not only fans but also those 'in the know'.. I've already posted evidence of it.
Sorry to hear you may have been burned in the stock market, but you can go back and find plenty of people in 2007who warned what was happening... just because you didn't listen to them or believe them doesn't mean they didn't give a warning. The fact the crash happened proved they were right. Yelling as loud as you can that "no one could have really known" doesn't change some did.
(PS guess you just can't give up on the hindsight position can you? I've already shown it to be bunk, but stick with it perhaps history will change)
That sounds a lot like my first experience on the stockmarket when I was just about 18. I had done pretty well in some investement competitions and (together with my brother who bankrolled me for half the money - don't know if I said sorry yet, I should) bought some put-options on the index (AEX) for about 1000 or 1500 guilders (pre-Euro time) because the German bank lowered the interest rate. Within a few hours they more than doubled, but I sold too late and we lost more than half the money. Immediately I had another great idea and again I was right, but again sold too late. So, within two days we lost something like 1500 guilders and most of my savings. Had I had hindsight before we would have made about 4000.
i don't think it did. you are arguing against hindsight but using it very well. until bosh and lebron didn't sign extensions there was no clues as to what happens after. prior to that players always got their money. if what happened, didn't happen then carmelo and dwill would have been the firsts.
you can take all the clues and everything speculators might have said and pretend they are facts but b.c talked to the man. like the begining of jerry mcguire a handshake deal was good enough for him. yes he didn't trade bosh, yes the team should have gotten more and yes responsibility falls on b.c because he is ultimately in charge.
take me for example, or you. when you or i tell people we are making plans with them we do it. or maybe we make plans together and then the day comes for the plans to go through and i say nope it's mountain climbing or nothing. and you're all like but i need two people to paddle the canoe. and i'm all oh i am sorry we are working together here, so it's mountain climbing or nothing because we are a team. and then you realize we are not a team and i have been smiling in your face for months since we made that plan but made other plans on the side i told you absolutely nothing about.
I dont think so. If teams (and I mean good teams eg Houston , La & Dallas) who were in the discussion at the time looking for a player with Bosh skills were in an equal opportunity buyer environment the value coming back would have been greater than the feathers we got. they all knew the die was cast. Bosh was all in to going to Miami. Wade had reeled him in and Riley lit the incense. Bosh screwed himself of a bunch more cash even with another team than the Raps. Because he is easily led. Well, we cant all be followers. So good on him. But please stop with the "I want to be the man" bullshit and "I dont know where I am going" faux indecisiveness. As Matt said, the Raptors and Cavs set a standard of how to deal with soontobe free agents in the future. That we dont give credit to the possibility that BC may have in fact tried to humanize the transaction by taking Bosh's word to not leave the franchise (who treated him so well) ultimately high and dry (he did not have to make the commitment to go half way on a decent s & t) is what is so rankling to me. To a fault my impression isthat BC bends over way too much trying to be a "good guy" in player relations. One tends to hear good things about him from ex players.
Bosh in effect pulled a Boozer (with the Cavs). It was a "fuck you" send off.
I'm not arguing Bosh was some innocent player in this whole debacle. I'm arguing that Bosh was always going to leave. What he said, or insinuated publically was never of any value to begin with.
And Toronto was never going to be in some theoretical equal opportunity buyer environment. Nor did Bosh say that was going to happen. He said he was going to work with Colangelo... and he did. Out of necessity ofcourse, but he did. Was the way he acted or the things he said publically the right approach? Probably not. Was it vague and obtuse? Yes.
Colangelo on the other hand tried to pass it off like it Toronto was going to get some good deal out of it. Then when the deal went down he acted like it actually was good (remember how handy he told us that TPE would be? Or getting the teams own pick back! One that they didn't actually lose yet because it was protected..... oh yes, the one he gave up in his efforts to keep Bosh to begin with!?!) Did people buy his snake oil again? No doubt. They always do.
If/when it got to the point where Bosh was going into free agency, it was going to be a team of his choosing, no one elses. And that would immediately limit Toronto's return.
Basic economics. When you only have one buyer, your pricing is limited to what that individual is able and willing to pay.
We watched this all happen before when Tracy McGrady left. Free agency hit, he waned to play away from "Vince's shadow" and close to home in Florida. He then needed Toronto to work out a sign and trade with Orlando so he could get more money. He ended up being traded to the Orlando Magic, in a sign and trade, for conditional future first round pick.
People were expecting this to happen with Bosh. We had watched it unfold in Toronto prior. We had seen star players want out when, or even before, their opportunity arose. We've watched star players do this at other locations. We had witnessed what the Raptors and other teams got in sign and trades historically. Now Toronto was in a situation where it had a player who turned down a max deal extension while saying he waned to test the market. He was on a marginal team at best, while team after team around the league was working diligently (and openly) to free cap space for when him and others were going to be free agents. Meanwhile the media had sources that claimed Bosh planned on leaving.
And this wasn't some spur of the moment quick decision to be made. This process went on for a year and a half, from the start of the 2008 season to the trade deadline of 2010..
How much more of a map does one need to see where this was heading? Because Bosh didn't come out an publically say 'I'm gone so trade me', we have to believe that all the above was meaningless circumstance and he was actually stringing Colangelo along behind the scenes? Even if he was, Colangelo was either too arrogant or unwilling to see the writing was in the sand. The risk was never worth it.
If one wants to call Bosh a douche for leaving or leaving the way he did. I'm all for it. He may or may not deserve it but I don't really care. Was never particularily fond of him to begin with. But losing him for almost nothing and setting this organization years back was entirely Colangelo's fault. No one elses. It wasn't some unforseeabe happenstance or undectable plot by some criminal genius. It was a very open and obvious practice in futility.
And yes I know I'm writing this all in vain because people will believe what they want to despite of everything presented to them. So this will be the last I say of this here.
You haven't proven jack sh!t.... nor have I. Why would Bosh sign another extension in 2008 when he just finished year 1 of a new extension? He had already signed an extension. Why would a new extension be offered in 2009 when he just finished year 2 of his contract?
Sorry, dude. I've returned an average monthly return of 6.43% for nearly 30 months. Do the math. Retirement at 38 is well within my grasp.
The answers are so obvious with history supporting your claim. Make these calls in real time and I'll be duly impressed giving you your due.
Trading has really become a passion over the last couple of years. More than the Raptors.... *GASP!*
Two of the best pieces of advice I have come across:
The trend is your friend and Do you want to be right or do you want to make money?
Sorry, dude. You are presenting an opinion based on news articles and rumours.... just as everyone else on the other side of the argument. The difference is you are not willing to acknowledge the flip side is a possibility and are presenting your opinion as truth with some very wrong facts regarding the CBA. The only people who know the truth are BC, Bosh, and Bosh's agent. Unless you are one of them you know d!ck.... just like me.
The fatal flaw of your argument is extension eligibility requirements in the CBA. A player cannot sign an extension until 3 years after the date of the original contract. This fact alone debunks your argument. http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q58
The whole insistence upon this, I continue to assume, is BC didn't return value for Bosh. Unfortunately, he was unable to offer an extension until July 14th, 2009 at which point he was under contract for 1 season. No team was willing to send fair value in those circumstances. Looking at Dwight Howard, who is a much more dominant player than Bosh, here is what Orlando was able to get:
Considering same GM is in Houston, I'd imagine the offers were similar - to Toronto's disadvantage. Then there is the idea of trading him for overpaid veterans or other players who are unrestricted which I have already discussed.Houston’s offer wasn’t as attractive as reports have indicated. The Rockets weren’t willing to give up all of their picks and prospects in addition to taking back Orlando’s bad contracts. It was one or the other. If Houston was giving away their prospects, they weren’t taking back bad contracts. If they were taking back bad contracts, they weren’t giving away their prospects. Without a long-term commitment from Howard, the Rockets weren’t willing to potentially ruin their future by giving away all of their prospects and taking back ugly deals. Houston wasn’t going to put themselves in a position where if Howard left after the season, they’d be stuck with bad contracts and have zero young players to build around. Throughout this process, Houston’s offer was described as the perfect deal for Orlando, but the Rockets were never going to give up everything and take back all of Orlando’s luggage.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-pm-the...s-master-plan/
Colangelo did what any other GM would have done in 2009 considering Bosh was not going to sign an extension with Toronto or anyone else: he attempted to build the best team he could. Unfortunately Hedo quit once he signed his big contract and Bosh showed the spine of a jellyfish after the all-star game. Bosh didn't even give Toronto the Melo courtesy of saying, "Trade me to this team or that team (Brooklyn or NY, in Melo's situation) and I will sign an extension."
Hindsight is a great thing but not when the facts do not support the cherry picking history.
Last edited by Matt52; Tue Aug 14th, 2012 at 07:24 AM.
Oops, I said I was done, but I forgot to respond to this part of your argument. The idea that the Houston trade scenario you proposed is the best the Raps could do is silly. Refuting it, just off the top of my head....
1) I can throw back your same argument at you that you have absolutely no idea what trades were discussed between BC and other GMs, so this is strictly your opinion on what was available. It's actually a dumb argument that I don't like to use because we can effectively stalemate the majority of posts on the internet or stuff found in newspapers this way. You can pretty much always say, "you don't know what you're talking about, you weren't in the room, so therefore I could be right." Weak.
2) You disregard the most important point - that BC waited too long in the process to begin shopping Bosh. After Raps and Cavs became the cautionary tale for NBA free agents who didn't sign extensions, teams like Denver (Melo) and Utah (D-Will) began creating the auction very early in the process. You need to include trade scenarios where BC begins shopping Bosh right away and then tell us what trades would be available to the Raps.
3) You talk alot about hindsight in a negative way. Actually, handicapping and successfully predicting future outcomes is EXACTLY what C-level management of large sized companies are paid to do. I have been on multiple board of directors and am also currently a C-level manager reporting to a board, and we are drilled on scenario planning and probability of success as a normal practice for deciding how to allocate company resources. As another poster pointed out, the risk management of the team's most valuable playing asset (Bosh) was handled extremely poorly. It is fair game to judge a president, CEO, etc... based on hindsight. That's why they get the big bucks.
4) Not signing an extension is not always a guarantee of low trade value. Gerald Wallace netted a 6th overall pick for Portland, who turned out to be Damian Lillard (potential stud, who Raps coveted also). The Nets had no guarantee Wallace would sign when he was acquired at the deadline. Gerald freakin' Wallace.
Ok, now I'm done.
Last edited by golden; Tue Aug 14th, 2012 at 10:06 AM.
A guy goes on vacation for a week and the summer got interesting again. Glad the Dwightmare is over. Orlando settles for crap picks and basically Vucevic (who I like, but is at this point just a role player), and Afflalo who had a bad season last year. If he returns to form then he may be a solid guy, but Orlando is going to be in the toilet for a few years. Why did they settle for picks with protections??
Sorry to divert from the Bosh discussion to the original thread topic, but just wanted to add my 2 cents on the Dwight trade...
I'm a bit puzzled by Iggy going to Denver considering the depth they have already with their wings. I guess they had the opportunity to get an all-star caliber guy for junk pieces and went for it.. can't blame them. I see Iggy as an asset. They can now get a decent power forward by trading some of their other guys like Gallinari or Chandler.
Philly getting Bynum makes some sense. He is arguably the second best center in the league. I think he still has maturity issues, and for a big with a history of injuries that's also a very big risk.
I think LA basically made a lateral move. Howard is the best center in the league, but I'm not sure that he and Kobe can co-exist. Kobe and Nash is one thing. The advantage there is Nash is unselfish and would have no problems feeding Kobe. However with Dwight in the picture, that's going to cause some friction. Plus Mike Brown is overrated. LA was looking at Kobe's replacement with that move. Either way, Kupchak should win executive of the year. Can't believe LA was able to get Nash, Howard, and Jamison without having to trade away Gasol.
As for the topic of this thread.. I don't think Toronto needs to make a deal with Denver. There is no point in getting Chandler now that we have Fields. And with Ross/DD/Kleiza already in the rotation, adding another wing would make it that much more difficult for minutes to be spread around. I am also not a fan of Gallinari. He got a ridiculous contract that I don't think he deserved. Offensively he's good. Has a good basketball IQ and can score a tonne of points. However from what I can see, he's fairly mediocre on defense.
I might be convinced that he'd be good for our team, but it would depend on what it would take to get him. Denver doesn't need a PG, so it would have to be a package for either Amir or Ed and one of our wings like DeMar or Kleiza. I'd take him for Kleiza/Ed.. but not so much for Amir/DD for example.
The one thing I really like about him is that he's only 24 (just turned on August 8th). He still has a lot of room to grow. But trading with Denver would be risky. With all the moves Ujiri has pulled off recently, he's bound to make Bryan look foolish on any deal between the two.
for 2 both melo and dwill were traded when they were in their last year of the contract. dwill(a player i hate) was the only one to go closed door and tell them he wasn't signing to extension. he was moved immediately for the best utah could get. melo was also more honest than both bosh/lebron he came out and said he won't sign with every team. he told everyone who he would sign with and denver used that to leverage teams against each other giving good huals. lebron and bosh both said all the right things to everyone they talked to. lebron was blowing new york two years before his contract was up and would go back to cleveland and say he was just joking. someone in this forum already posted quotes directly out of bosh' mouth that shows from his own words he and bc were on the same page. if you can't take a man on his own words how can you take a different mans word on that mans' thought process?
for 4 the pick was protected and the nets' nuts were in a jam. they needed vet talent around williams big time.
for me the nba isn't banking and isn't investing. you need to be ruthless and sneaky in business. in the nba you have to build the relationships. agents spend years building them. gms, coaches. it's all who you know and how they feel about you.
haha
agree with no chandler but a package somehow of davis, demar and whatever else is needed not jv,ab or kl for gallinari would be awesome. i would be all in for gallo
1) Unfortunately the only thing any of us has to go on is rumours and news reports for the very reason you suggest. Nothing the Raps were rumoured to have been offered at the time (Bulls, Houston) was strong or realistic (Bynum with Gasol on the roster). Saying the Raps could have got more is also, ummm, what is the word... oh yeah: weak.
2) I don't disregard the most important point. The most important point is the contract extension was not available to be offered until July 14th, 2009. At that point he is refusing to sign an extension with ANYONE. This comes back to #1: we don't know what was offered but if there was any shred of truth to the rumours the answer was not much do to his desire to become an UFA. Given what eventually transpired teams were right to be reluctant to give up much to acquire him.
3) Using your own argument the risk was quite minimal that Bosh (and LeBron) would go the route they did. It had never been done before. This is why the rules of the game changed. Again, we are back to the argument of: did BC take Bosh at his face value and get burned? Opinions clearly differ to this answer. Given the very human nature of the assets in question it is hardly the same as company resource allocation. Would it have been prudent risk management to trade your best asset for scraps without being told one way or the other if said asset was guaranteed to leave?
4) So your #1 point is weak on my end so you come back with it? Hmmmmm, pot-kettle? Circumstances and situations are not similar from 2009-2010 to 2012. Team situations change and it also happens the CBA has changed. New Jersey was desperate to keep their own star and obtained the best player they could find in a position of need (wing). Portland had no desire to keep veterans (especially a player who played same position as Batum) and Wallace was an expendable asset. Bosh was hardly an expendable asset for Toronto. There is no merit in comparing one situation from 2-3 years ago to recent history.
Once again, arguments can be made for or against "did Bosh burn the Raptors?" That is not the question.... or it shouldn't be.
The question is also not did BC return fair value for Bosh? The answer to that is clearly no. The Raptors were in a position with little to no leverage.
The question, at least for me, is: would trading Bosh in a trade deadline transaction put the franchise in a better place today? Personally, I don't think so. I don't think there was an offer on the table worth the contract or cap space beyond the end of the 2010 season. My opinion is based is based on rumours at the time (do a quick google search to see the rumours of the day). Because I was not in any trade discussions and do not know the reality of what transpired, this is my just my opinion.
With the Raptors currently having a roster of 10 players 27 or younger and the ability to sign or trade for a max player should the opportunity arise, I think they are in a better place. There was no star coming back in a Bosh trade so wiping the slate clean and starting fresh was a better option than filling the team with overpaid veterans.
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