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Thread: Should Raptors be on the phone with Denver?

  1. #161
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Wilson Chandler thinks he can be an allstar in 2 years...

    http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2012/08...lson-chandler/
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  2. #162
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    haha

    agree with no chandler but a package somehow of davis, demar and whatever else is needed not jv,ab or kl for gallinari would be awesome. i would be all in for gallo
    I worry about Gallo. Reports are now he has an injured shoulder. The guy has injured, what seems like, every part of his body in the last 2-3 years.

  3. #163
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    1) Unfortunately the only thing any of us has to go on is rumours and news reports for the very reason you suggest. Nothing the Raps were rumoured to have been offered at the time (Bulls, Houston) was strong or realistic (Bynum with Gasol on the roster). Saying the Raps could have got more is also, ummm, what is the word... oh yeah: weak.

    2) I don't disregard the most important point. The most important point is the contract extension was not available to be offered until July 14th, 2009. At that point he is refusing to sign an extension with ANYONE. This comes back to #1: we don't know what was offered but if there was any shred of truth to the rumours the answer was not much do to his desire to become an UFA. Given what eventually transpired teams were right to be reluctant to give up much to acquire him.

    3) Using your own argument the risk was quite minimal that Bosh (and LeBron) would go the route they did. It had never been done before. This is why the rules of the game changed. Again, we are back to the argument of: did BC take Bosh at his face value and get burned? Opinions clearly differ to this answer. Given the very human nature of the assets in question it is hardly the same as company resource allocation. Would it have been prudent risk management to trade your best asset for scraps without being told one way or the other if said asset was guaranteed to leave?

    4) So your #1 point is weak on my end so you come back with it? Hmmmmm, pot-kettle? Circumstances and situations are not similar from 2009-2010 to 2012. Team situations change and it also happens the CBA has changed. New Jersey was desperate to keep their own star and obtained the best player they could find in a position of need (wing). Portland had no desire to keep veterans (especially a player who played same position as Batum) and Wallace was an expendable asset. Bosh was hardly an expendable asset for Toronto. There is no merit in comparing one situation from 2-3 years ago to recent history.


    Once again, arguments can be made for or against "did Bosh burn the Raptors?" That is not the question.... or it shouldn't be.

    The question is also not did BC return fair value for Bosh? The answer to that is clearly no. The Raptors were in a position with little to no leverage.

    The question, at least for me, is: would trading Bosh in a trade deadline transaction put the franchise in a better place today? Personally, I don't think so. I don't think there was an offer on the table worth the contract or cap space beyond the end of the 2010 season. My opinion is based is based on rumours at the time (do a quick google search to see the rumours of the day). Because I was not in any trade discussions and do not know the reality of what transpired, this is my just my opinion.

    With the Raptors currently having a roster of 10 players 27 or younger and the ability to sign or trade for a max player should the opportunity arise, I think they are in a better place. There was no star coming back in a Bosh trade so wiping the slate clean and starting fresh was a better option than filling the team with overpaid veterans.
    I'll add two more points myself.

    Would be nice if you clarified you were apparently discussing something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the rest of us.

    speaking of hindsight.........

  4. #164
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Just one comment on the Bosh trade to Miami.. apparently the Clippers had offered Griffin for Bosh (this came from Doug Smith in one of his past blogs). This was after the 2009 draft (so Bryan could have made a deal for Bosh before the 2010 off season):

    http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/201...-airlines.html

    Here’s one for you:

    How would have liked Blake Griffin in a Raptors uniform?

    You have to trust me on this but it comes from a guy I trust without doubt and it works like this.

    Way back after the Clips on the lottery, there was a call made to determine if there was any interest in a deal that would have sent Chris Bosh to the Clippers for the No. 1 overall pick with Toronto willing to take back the then-monstrous contract of Baron Davis in the deal.
    I'm not the biggest Griffin fan.. but I would have done that deal in a heart beat. And assuming Griffin got injured like he did in LA.. we would have tanked in 2009/2010, thus getting a solid pick (say Paul George for example) in the 2010 draft instead of Ed Davis.

    Just pointing out that there were more options on the table in 2009 well before the 2010 off season. Instead Bryan decided to try and keep Bosh by signing Turk and Jack. Not a good decision in my opinion.

  5. #165
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I'll add two more points myself.

    Would be nice if you clarified you were apparently discussing something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the rest of us.

    speaking of hindsight.........
    I've made comments referring to these points throughout the discussion. They were ignored and left out of quoted replies numerous times.

    As discussion has evolved it was my understanding:

    No one cares about boo-hoo bosh left.... good riddance.
    The issue of whether he misled the Raptors is an unknown on both sides of the argument - opinions clearly differ.
    What else is there left to debate discuss? Oh right, the return of Bosh and would the Raptors have been better off trading him before the trade deadline - to which it is my opinion no.


    I don't think there is a different discussion going on at this point. How else does this discussion even remain relevant if the crying over the returns of a Bosh trade is not put in to perspective of the current state of the franchise? Seems that people don't want to discuss uncertain future when they can wail and cry over a known past.... kind of like arm chair GM's or the 'shoulda, coulda, woulda' crowd who look to the past rather than the future.

  6. #166
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Just one comment on the Bosh trade to Miami.. apparently the Clippers had offered Griffin for Bosh (this came from Doug Smith in one of his past blogs). This was after the 2009 draft (so Bryan could have made a deal for Bosh before the 2010 off season):

    http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/201...-airlines.html



    I'm not the biggest Griffin fan.. but I would have done that deal in a heart beat. And assuming Griffin got injured like he did in LA.. we would have tanked in 2009/2010, thus getting a solid pick (say Paul George for example) in the 2010 draft instead of Ed Davis.

    Just pointing out that there were more options on the table in 2009 well before the 2010 off season. Instead Bryan decided to try and keep Bosh by signing Turk and Jack. Not a good decision in my opinion.
    I have to call hindsight on that one as well.

    This was offered before July 14th, 2009 when the Raps were able to offer an extension. A known 24 year old 20/10 all star for an unknown #1 and 4 years and $60M for Baron Davis who was out of shape, oft-injured, and a poor locker room presence? All the rumours of Bosh wanting out were never confirmed and goes back to an earlier argument.

    At the time, this trade would have been like trading a guaranteed 20/10 player for an unknown 20/10 and a debt to pay $60M. That doesn't sound like the kind of stuff that would have flown with the MLSE bean counters.

  7. #167
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I have to call hindsight on that one as well.

    This was offered before July 14th, 2009 when the Raps were able to offer an extension. A known 24 year old 20/10 all star for an unknown #1 and 4 years and $60M for Baron Davis who was out of shape, oft-injured, and a poor locker room presence? All the rumours of Bosh wanting out were never confirmed and goes back to an earlier argument.

    At the time, this trade would have been like trading a guaranteed 20/10 player for an unknown 20/10 and a debt to pay $60M. That doesn't sound like the kind of stuff that would have flown with the MLSE bean counters.
    With hindsight that move would have been brilliant considering Griffin will be as good as Bosh is/was, and has that electrifying aspect to his game that we haven't seen since Vince. Throw in the amnesty clause that could be used on Davis, and an early rebuild to get a top pick in 2010 and possibly 2011, and that would be a home run.

    So with hindsight gone, the question that Bryan had to face at that particular moment was whether or not he wanted to rebuild without Bosh or try to contend with Bosh and his potential max salary.

    At that time I was personally hoping for the former, since I didn't see rings with Bosh as "the man" on the roster. And even if the amnesty clause was never created and/or Griffin ended up being a bust - the bottom line was that a Bosh lead team only made the playoffs twice, and in both cases were eliminated in the first round.

    I think Bryan (and MLSE if they were making the shots) made a poor decision not just because of hindsight but because he wasn't looking at the big picture. ie, Bosh as "the man" was not going to get you a ring, and keeping Bosh while getting someone else to be that man would have been extremely difficult (since we don't attract free agents, and our draft picks would be mediocre).

    I am happy that things have turned out well for us. As your avatar suggests though - it took 5 years for Bryan to get it.. It's just too bad it wasn't 4 years.

  8. #168
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    With hindsight that move would have been brilliant considering Griffin will be as good as Bosh is/was, and has that electrifying aspect to his game that we haven't seen since Vince. Throw in the amnesty clause that could be used on Davis, and an early rebuild to get a top pick in 2010 and possibly 2011, and that would be a home run.

    So with hindsight gone, the question that Bryan had to face at that particular moment was whether or not he wanted to rebuild without Bosh or try to contend with Bosh and his potential max salary.

    At that time I was personally hoping for the former, since I didn't see rings with Bosh as "the man" on the roster. And even if the amnesty clause was never created and/or Griffin ended up being a bust - the bottom line was that a Bosh lead team only made the playoffs twice, and in both cases were eliminated in the first round.

    I think Bryan (and MLSE if they were making the shots) made a poor decision not just because of hindsight but because he wasn't looking at the big picture. ie, Bosh as "the man" was not going to get you a ring, and keeping Bosh while getting someone else to be that man would have been extremely difficult (since we don't attract free agents, and our draft picks would be mediocre).

    I am happy that things have turned out well for us. As your avatar suggests though - it took 5 years for Bryan to get it.. It's just too bad it wasn't 4 years.
    Not sure I agree Griffin is as good as Bosh. No outside game, poor defense, questionable knees (although that is a common trait shared with Bosh), poor FT. Part of the equation as a GM that is likely lost on the majority of fans (myself included) is the financial side of the equation. Not sure MLSE would have gone for $60M to B. Diddy.

    Totally agree that Bosh as the man wasn't going to get you a ring but it doesn't look like Griffin will do that either.... and certainly Baron Davis would not have either.

    If we are going to look at the big picture, then the question likely to be asked was: "Will Griffin + Davis make us a better team?" I think the answer is no. A more exciting team? Absolutely, but better? Nope.

    *EDIT* OH yeah. I am going to have to change the avatar. After going for Nash, I'm not sure BC gets it. Keep in mind I was pushing for Nash... did the whole thread and all.... but I was wrong.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Aug 14th, 2012 at 03:33 PM.

  9. #169
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Not sure I agree Griffin is as good as Bosh. No outside game, poor defense, questionable knees (although that is a common trait shared with Bosh), poor FT. Part of the equation as a GM that is likely lost on the majority of fans (myself included) is the financial side of the equation. Not sure MLSE would have gone for $60M to B. Diddy.

    Totally agree that Bosh as the man wasn't going to get you a ring but it doesn't look like Griffin will do that either.... and certainly Baron Davis would not have either.

    If we are going to look at the big picture, then the question likely to be asked was: "Will Griffin + Davis make us a better team?" I think the answer is no. A more exciting team? Absolutely, but better? Nope.
    Yeah, the money is definitely a concern. I'm just a guy behind a keyboard and not making decisions like trading for a fat bastard who is owed $60M, but if the way to succeed in the NBA is by getting franchise altering talent, then in my opinion I would do it if it means taking on a bad contract with it.

    Griffin (like A Davis this year) was a consensus #1 pick in 2009. The chance for him to be a franchise altering talent was high. I'd take him and B Diddy because I think I'd have a better chance of building a contender over keeping Bosh at a max contract and then building around him (compounded by the fact that resigning him has only a 50% chance of success).

    And I do agree in that Bosh is better than Griffin+Davis in the short term.. but I think Griffin plus a high pick in 2010 and 2011 would be better in the long term even if Davis was still on the roster rotting away.


    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    *EDIT* OH yeah. I am going to have to change the avatar. After going for Nash, I'm not sure BC gets it. Keep in mind I was pushing for Nash... did the whole thread and all.... but I was wrong.
    I am not a big fan of Colangelo, and I am probably in the minority here, but I still think Nash would have been a good move for this franchise. He would put this team on the map while possibly grooming the next PG of the future (ie, whoever we end up getting in 2013/2014). You would typically never want an aging all-star vet on a rebuilding team but I think Nash would be an exception to that. The guy is smart, keeps himself in great shape, and makes others around him better. Plus he has a winner's mentality.

  10. #170
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Yeah, the money is definitely a concern. I'm just a guy behind a keyboard and not making decisions like trading for a fat bastard who is owed $60M, but if the way to succeed in the NBA is by getting franchise altering talent, then in my opinion I would do it if it means taking on a bad contract with it.

    Griffin (like A Davis this year) was a consensus #1 pick in 2009. The chance for him to be a franchise altering talent was high. I'd take him and B Diddy because I think I'd have a better chance of building a contender over keeping Bosh at a max contract and then building around him (compounded by the fact that resigning him has only a 50% chance of success).

    And I do agree in that Bosh is better than Griffin+Davis in the short term.. but I think Griffin plus a high pick in 2010 and 2011 would be better in the long term even if Davis was still on the roster rotting away.




    I am not a big fan of Colangelo, and I am probably in the minority here, but I still think Nash would have been a good move for this franchise. He would put this team on the map while possibly grooming the next PG of the future (ie, whoever we end up getting in 2013/2014). You would typically never want an aging all-star vet on a rebuilding team but I think Nash would be an exception to that. The guy is smart, keeps himself in great shape, and makes others around him better. Plus he has a winner's mentality.

    A consensus #1 pick is still not a certainty to be a 20/10 guy. Bosh was and still under 25 at that. When the offer was reportedly made, the Raptors were not even able to offer a contract extension to Bosh. FWIW, I do not classify Griffin as a franchise altering guy on the court... in 2009 it would have been a hope/prayer/guess that ultimately failed.

    Also, the Raptors would have had the same problems building with B. Diddy and Griffin as they did with Bosh - no cap space or flexibility to add talent. The amnesty was an unknown at the time and Davis would have only come off the books on July 1st, 2012.


    I think we have to agree to disagree on the merits of this trade.

  11. #171
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    A consensus #1 pick is still not a certainty to be a 20/10 guy. Bosh was and still under 25 at that. When the offer was reportedly made, the Raptors were not even able to offer a contract extension to Bosh. FWIW, I do not classify Griffin as a franchise altering guy on the court... in 2009 it would have been a hope/prayer/guess that ultimately failed.

    Also, the Raptors would have had the same problems building with B. Diddy and Griffin as they did with Bosh - no cap space or flexibility to add talent. The amnesty was an unknown at the time and Davis would have only come off the books on July 1st, 2012.


    I think we have to agree to disagree on the merits of this trade.
    I don't think anybody is suggesting that Baron Davis is a core piece to build any franchise around. Absorbing his contract would be the cost of getting the #1 pick. In fact, the ability to not easily add talent via trade or free agency would have been a good thing. It would guarantee that we suck for a few more years and if all went 'well', we'd get a few more top 5 draft picks. OKC model here we come.

  12. #172
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    I don't think anybody is suggesting that Baron Davis is a core piece to build any franchise around. Absorbing his contract would be the cost of getting the #1 pick. In fact, the ability to not easily add talent via trade or free agency would have been a good thing. It would guarantee that we suck for a few more years and if all went 'well', we'd get a few more top 5 draft picks. OKC model here we come.
    Except you are basing the whole premise on lottery balls bouncing your way, top draft talent available when on the clock, draft talent reaching potential without injury, and chemistry being present in the talent acquired.

    Your whole premise is plugging constants in to an "OKC-magic-formula" when there are many in fact many variables that went in to OKC's success - many of which were beyond their control.

  13. #173
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    If the OKC formula was that easy, every non-playoff team would be attempting it.

    Without Durant (i.e. one of the best players in a generation), none of it is possible. Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka alone is not a championship calibre team.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  14. #174
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    ok, Ok, OK, .... Using the term 'OKC-model' is a sore point, I see. But the point remains, playing crap (intentionally or not) and acquiring good, young affordable talent via the draft gives you the option of developing that talent further or or flipping it into established better talent. Blinding glimpse of the obvious, I know.

  15. #175
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    ok, Ok, OK, .... Using the term 'OKC-model' is a sore point, I see. But the point remains, playing crap (intentionally or not) and acquiring good, young affordable talent via the draft gives you the option of developing that talent further or or flipping it into established better talent. Blinding glimpse of the obvious, I know.
    The OKC model is not a sore point. It is an often overused and oversimplified model that requires luck before talented front office people can have any impact on the outcome.

  16. #176
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The OKC model is not a sore point. It is an often overused and oversimplified model that requires luck before talented front office people can have any impact on the outcome.
    At long last, in this thread, we agree. :-)

  17. #177
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    At long last, in this thread, we agree. :-)
    Hallelujah!

  18. #178
    Raptors Republic Starter Katman's Avatar
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    Quick, close the thread! We have achieved world peace! lol

  19. #179
    Raptors Republic Starter theycallmeZZ's Avatar
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    Quote Katman wrote: View Post
    Quick, close the thread! We have achieved world peace! lol

    No we haven't


    ....





    He's still in LA
    TORONTOOOOOO RAPTORSSSSSS

  20. #180
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote theycallmeZZ wrote: View Post
    No we haven't


    ....





    He's still in LA
    MuaHaHaHa

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