View Poll Results: Assuming your all-star talent is already on a max-contract, do you think it is better

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  • Get the player, build the team

    7 25.00%
  • Build the team, get the player

    21 75.00%
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Thread: What came first? The chicken or the egg?

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  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default What came first? The chicken or the egg?

    This summer is going slow - which is not a bad thing - but it sucks for Raptors fans waiting for October 31. Because of this discussion has also been slow and in some cases agonizing. With little to talk many old arguments and debates have come up.

    These old debates (Bosh and Colangelo, in particular) got me thinking about the Raptor teams of the post-Vince Carter era. This can basically be summed up as the "Bosh era" and the "post-Bosh era".

    What I find extremely interesting is, while many things have changed from the 2005-2010 time frame compared to 2010-now, one thing has stayed the same. The big similarity is the ongoing battle to build a perennial contender. From this similarity comes 2 very different outcomes though.

    In the Bosh era the team had its All-Star talent. It was Bosh. No, he was not a franchise piece but he was a very talented player who put up 20/10 a night. No, he wasn't going to single-handedly win many games - the odd one no doubt. No, he wasn't going to carry the team on his shoulders. I am not attempting to put Bosh down here, I am stating what I consider to be accepted facts. But one thing Bosh never had was a solid supporting cast. There were a couple of good pieces in addition to Bosh but the word 'depth' certainly was never associated with the Raptors during the Bosh era. The Raptors also lacked the means to add depth and help as they did not have valuable trade chips or cap space after the summer of 2006.

    Since Bosh has left, no doubt the team has been busy getting an overhaul. This is the first time in the post-Bosh era that the Raptors are being talked about as playoff contenders without a prior hit off the bong. *The following is my opinion which is likely not to be the opinion of everyone but that is cool* The current Raptor team has depth that I cannot remember the team having since 2005. PG is solid, wings are not outstanding but better than recent years, and bigs appear to be deep and complimentary to one another. In addition, moving forward, the Raptors have the flexibility with their cap space to facilitate trades or free agent acquisitions should the opportunity arise. It is still an unknown but it appears likely the new CBA will benefit the teams outside the top markets. Really the only thing Toronto is missing at this time is a legit All-Star talent.... which leads me to my question:



    Assuming the all-star talent is already on a max-contract, do you think it is better to build a team around the player or build the team and add the player later?



    *Clearly the best option would be to draft your franchise/all-star player but a lot of luck is needed before the front office ever has a chance to impact the roster. So lets assume the all-star talent is already established and on a max contract, just for the sake of apples-to-apples discussion.*


    **To avoid any confusion, what I am asking is: do you think it is better to have that max-contract talent first and build around him or do you think it is better to have the support and attempt to add the max-contract talent second?**


    ***Hopefully this isn't received as a stupid thread idea but I'm just trying to generate any interesting discussion as we approach the 2 month countdown to the start of the season***

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    cant vote. should be whatever comes first. if you get the player first shot you start to build the team around that player. if you dont you build a team and wait for the right player

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    cant vote. should be whatever comes first. if you get the player first shot you start to build the team around that player. if you dont you build a team and wait for the right player
    Good point.

    But whichever option has its own positives and negatives because of that the question was which would be better.... or more explicitly which would you prefer?

  4. #4
    Raptors Republic Starter theycallmeZZ's Avatar
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    Having the player, then the team sounds to me like the Brooklyn Nets.

    Loaded at the front with a star, but no depth. I would rather have the team first.
    TORONTOOOOOO RAPTORSSSSSS

  5. #5
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    Would say the same. Whichever comes first. However Toronto has the opportunity as it's roster is composed now to build a team of star(not all-star/franchise) players. Players who can hold their fort very capably. In other words above average players. If in the process, they stumble across an all-star, great. Sorry, out of topic but just thought I'd mention it.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  6. #6
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    great idea if only for the fact that i was going to start a thread saying "what the *&^(*& are we supposed to talk about for the next month. Good question. No answer. Option A worked for Kobe (over and over), didn't work for Lebron or Dwight. Unless you count nba finals (but not winning) as success. Then it did work for them. But, in our under the radar world, we need a team that can benefit from a star and survive if he leaves.

  7. #7
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    .... The current Raptor team has depth that I cannot remember the team having since 2005. ...
    Matt I would go so far as to say the Raptors have never had this much potential depth previously. They are truly ripe for an all-star talent. Whether it is someone who emerges ( Demar? Lowry? JV? Bargs?) or someone they bring in, this year or next is the time.

  8. #8
    Raptors Republic Starter theycallmeZZ's Avatar
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    By the way Matt, here's a new picture to replace your beloved BC one

    http://i.imgur.com/9Zx2M.jpg
    TORONTOOOOOO RAPTORSSSSSS

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    I will agree with many of the feedback, whichever comes first. Although, being a big proponent of team play, I would prefer an elite player to be fit into an established system or team, rather than built around by one. I don't know of many teams with great success that have had the one star and a surrounding team with championships...

  10. #10
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    Obviously the team. Let your young players develop first and then add an All-Star at a needed position. Only way you take the all-star first is if you can get him for a steal.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    IMO, supporting cast members need to tailor fit the franchise player. It's hard to figure out who that supporting cast is without having that franchise player first.

    I can't see a GM building a team of role players, and then going after LeBron.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  12. #12
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    IMO, supporting cast members need to tailor fit the franchise player. It's hard to figure out who that supporting cast is without having that franchise player first.

    I can't see a GM building a team of role players, and then going after LeBron.
    Absolutely. But how do you get a franchise player to come to a crap team?

    Coach needs to decide what kind of style the team will play with. Management needs to acquire the players that fit that style. Then management needs to target a free agent all-star type (or get one through trade) that fits into and can take that style of team play to higher level of success.

    All of this allows tinkering with role players/style if a stud falls into your hands.

  13. #13
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    This is an really a painful question for me. Painful because we have the surrounding talent and are just missing the All Star whom would put us over the top, but truly painful when you realize that the Raptors has never in it's history been able to acquire a legit All Star talent via a trade or free agency. I'm not talking about Hakeem at the end of his career looking for a last pay cheque or Alonzo whom refused to play here. Antonio Davis....well he was a great player for us, but not really the kind of star power I'm assuming we're talking about here.

    So to answer the question, and maybe it's specific to the Raptors because we'll always have difficulty of acquiring top notch talent via trade or free agents, I think we have to have the All Star prior to having the rest of the team.

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Building a solid team has to be the priority. Then go out and get your star, either via trade or FA. The major advantage that this has, in my mind, is that there are fewer players to integrate into your system. All you have to do is get that single player up to speed, which is much easier then going shopping and hoping that everyone you bring in meshes quickly.

    I also like the fact that if the star never comes, then the team is stuck in mediocrity, instead of embarrassing. I really like how the Pacers transitioned out of the Miller/JO era.

  15. #15
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Unfortunately to succeed in today's NBA you need at least 2 franchise players on a single team, and possibly 3. The top teams in the league Miami, Boston, OKC, SAS, LAL, etc all have at least 3 franchise players playing on the same team. I think you need a team that already has a franchise player that someone else would want to play with.

    Having a good team and then acquiring franchise altering talent can work, but has it ever been done before? Has a star player ever wanted to go to a team that didn't have a franchise player there already? To move a franchise player in a trade, it is typically the franchise player that dictates where he wants to play even in a trade which is what I hate most about this league.

  16. #16
    Raptors Republic Starter Mess's Avatar
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    Each franchise has 12-15 players but that doesn't mean each one has a franchise player.

    I think you're using the term franchise player a little too loosely for those teams...3 All Stars? Of course, but for me, a franchise player has to prove that he can carry a team to a high level of success and there are a bunch on those teams that haven't proved it (yet).

    And I'm going to cheat and make up an answer.

    c) Build the culture, get the players

  17. #17
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    build then add
    @jerboat

  18. #18
    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    Getting the player first and then building the team requires an exceptionally mentally strong player. You put even the most talented player in the world on a team with a losing record 3 years in a row and with not so great players and they'll stop trying unless they are born leaders or winners.

    Look at John Wall, could be a top 3 PG in the league but you surrounded him with crap and now they're worried that he might never achieve his potential because of how poorly the organization built that team.

    On the other hand if you get lucky with a Jordan, Garnett or Nash they can lift bad teams up. But it's pretty rare to find guys like them.


    I voted build team, then get players.

  19. #19
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    IMO, build then get the franchise player.

    Reason 1: a franchise player should be versatile, hence the tag, franchise player. Your top player should be able to adapt to any condition he's put in, thats why youre making the star, and paying him the big bucks. He should be able to customize his game towards what the team needs him to do, and be able to do what is necessary to carry the team forward.

    Reason 2: if you get a franchise player and build a team around him, supporting how he plays instead of him adjusting to the team, then he leaves, now what? you're stuck with a bunch of players whose games are tailor-made to support a specific type of player with a specific type of skill-set. Like what Orlando did with Howard. Surrounded him with perimeter shooters then he leaves, not theyre getting rid of everybody as well.

  20. #20
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Can someone provide an example of a team using the "build the team then get the player" approach? The only one that pops into my head is Phoenix and Nash.

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