Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: Article about Bargnani's defense...and no, it's not all bad.

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Starter Mess's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Hamilton, ON
    Posts
    648
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Article about Bargnani's defense...and no, it's not all bad.


  2. #2
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,975
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Modern NBA defensive criticism is interesting because it specifically targets centers with fault for failing to cover for the mistakes of their teammates. It sounds counter-intuitive, doesnít it? Why is it Andrea Bargananiís fault that Jose Calderon canít contain perimeter penetration? Why should Bargnani have to clean up the mess for DeMar DeRozan?
    It's because of the modern NBA rules (i.e. lax hand-checking). No perimeter player is capable of guarding another 1-on-1.

    If you're 7-feet tall, you're expected to rotate. That's just the way the game is designed nowadays.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    1,453
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Good read and pretty accurate, I think at one time or another we have discussed the fact that Andrea is a solid post defender, and, like the article states, his help defence is where the problem is.

  4. #4
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    in a van down by the river
    Posts
    2,798
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    i am patiently waiting for the Andale McNani photoshops to start

  5. #5
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Downtown Toronto
    Posts
    70
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    This article just makes me want the season to start more - because JV is the perfect compliment to bargnani (a great help defender)

  6. #6
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,851
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Good article, but poor Bargnani.

    Now that they have good perimeter defenders in Lowry and Fields, will the expectations on Bargnani being a "better defender" because he now only has to guard less penetration and well, his own man, be a lot higher?? I think so.

    Or we he relapse and think he may not need to put too much effort on defense since the team now has better wing defenders?

    The saga continues.

  7. #7
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Downtown Toronto
    Posts
    70
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    With Casey as the coach Bargnani will be a decent defender and now that we have better wing defenders and a legit C our team defensive rating should be above league average. Bargnani is an athletic 7 footer - he can guard 4's one on one with his height and lateral quicks

  8. #8
    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Lietuva
    Posts
    1,343
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Bargnani is athletic?

  9. #9
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,052
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Good article, but poor Bargnani.

    Now that they have good perimeter defenders in Lowry and Fields, will the expectations on Bargnani being a "better defender" because he now only has to guard less penetration and well, his own man, be a lot higher?? I think so.

    Or we he relapse and think he may not need to put too much effort on defense since the team now has better wing defenders?

    The saga continues.
    From my recollection of last year, he was the best pick and roll defender on the team. I have no stats to back that up, just my memory and comments from Casey saying similar if not the same.

  10. #10
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC.
    Posts
    4,032
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    From my recollection of last year, he was the best pick and roll defender on the team. I have no stats to back that up, just my memory and comments from Casey saying similar if not the same.
    I do remember Casey saying that, I believe he might have mentioned it during the mid-season interviews with Matt Devlin.

    Anyways, I would agree. Not so much his skill on the defensive end was the reason for good P&R defense, but mostly because he knew how to defend it.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Starter IROR's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Ottawa/Toronto
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    very accurate...i don't think he will ever do it, but he could be a great stopper if he clogged the lane and helped from the weak side. Maybe a summer with Casey will flick a switch, at least we can hope

  12. #12
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    New Brunswick
    Posts
    1,524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    No surprise here, last year all anyone was talking about was how much better Bargs was defending before his injury. What I'm excited about it that Bargs is probably not going to be relied on as much to provide the last line of help. We have Jonas for that.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

  13. #13
    Raptors Republic Starter Mess's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Hamilton, ON
    Posts
    648
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is athletic?
    He isn't JaVale McGee athletic, but he isn't Aaron Gray either. He moves pretty well for a 7 ft player but he's not too "springy".

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Toronto/Kingston, Ontario
    Posts
    50
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Yeah, it's stretch to say Bargnani is an elite athlete, but to say he isn't athletic is a stretch as well. It's hard to have good hand-eye coordination and explosiveness when 7 feet or over (or so I hear, but a quick youtube search confirms any suspicions), but I'd say for his size Andrea is a pretty good athlete. He's much better than the average 7 footer at rolling to the rim and driving the lane.

  15. #15
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,851
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote IROR wrote: View Post
    very accurate...i don't think he will ever do it, but he could be a great stopper if he clogged the lane and helped from the weak side. Maybe a summer with Casey will flick a switch, at least we can hope
    I do think Casey will be a tremendous help to him come training camp.

    But i still believe that he'd get the most out of somebody who's actually played a position that he's currently in.
    Hakeem? Jabbar? Casey can only tell him the x and o's, but an actually big man who was a great defender in the NBA can re-live the experience with him.

  16. #16
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Richmond Hill, ON
    Posts
    2,798
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I agree with everything in the article. I also want to add something to the article. Bargnani, in his NBA career, sometimes seemed uninterested in the game on the rebounding end. Sometimes I feel like he doesn't have any motor at all. No interest in rebounding for balls or even fighting for loose balls. Although last season, I've seen sparks where he seems interested but it's not always there. Need to see more of that energy from him.

  17. #17
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,052
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    I agree with everything in the article. I also want to add something to the article. Bargnani, in his NBA career, sometimes seemed uninterested in the game on the rebounding end. Sometimes I feel like he doesn't have any motor at all. No interest in rebounding for balls or even fighting for loose balls. Although last season, I've seen sparks where he seems interested but it's not always there. Need to see more of that energy from him.
    Agreed. Defensive rebounding is a huge part of the defense in general. How many guys have had career nights against the Raptors and/or Bargnani in the paint and on the glass.

    I don't care how many boards he grabs because it is a team game. As long as he boxes out and his man doesn't get the ball, I'm happy. The Raps have shown with him on the floor they can out rebound the opposition. Bargnani critics will likely say that is another example of lowering the bar for him.... and they'd be right when it comes to statistical rebounding. But to be honest, I don't give a shit anymore. He is such a unique talent and appears to be on the verge of really putting his career together whereby he capitalizes on his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses. If I'm wrong on that, he can pack his bags with Colangelo after next season ('13-14).

  18. #18
    Raptors Republic Rookie 10 000 Hours's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Toronto, On
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    It's because of the modern NBA rules (i.e. lax hand-checking). No perimeter player is capable of guarding another 1-on-1.

    If you're 7-feet tall, you're expected to rotate. That's just the way the game is designed nowadays.
    That is exactly what I was thinking. Couldn't have said it better myself.
    Walking like I'm already there.

  19. #19
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,120
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default


    Unfortunately, if you have too much time on your hands, as I have over the past four years, you can actually watch the game video and discover that, whoops, often Bargnani was actually defending the better offensive threat due to his raw height. Surprise!
    That does come as a suprise to me as I haven't found that to be true. Bargnani's match ups were very much situational where he covered PFs when out with Gray, Cs when out with Ed, and either or (depending on match up) when out with Amir. There seemed to be a definite attempt to keep him from having to 'bang' with the Cs in general, except in certain cases of elite PFs.

    Now I could very well be wrong here (although I feel confident in my above statement) but it would be nice for the writer to provide some evidence, especially since he is the one trying to counter criticism of the legitamacy of statistics and claiming people need to understand the 'nuance' of statistics.

    Bear in mind these numbers are regardless of the number of possessions, so someone that defended in the post once successfully logs in at the top of the chart. So basically, heís even better than these numbers indicate, relative to his position
    This to would be interesting to see considering he missed half a season (therefore missed alot of possession vs most players), and seemed to play a large portion of his minutes at PF and thereby less time in the post (not that playing PF doesn't mean said person doesn't play in the post, but its a much less common than a C). Yes his sample of post D probably exceeds most perimeter players and very deep bench players, but most big men? His minutes played alone keeps him at the low end of statistical valuations. A quick example, he played 70% of the total minutes Ed Davis did.

    That doesn't even touch pace, in which the Raps was one of the slowest in the league, or percentage of possessions where the Raptors played zone defense as opposed to man defense (and this is a guess here, but it wouldn't come as a suprise if the Raps played more zone than most NBA teams. Nothing to back that up however)

    Looking at all those combined its not hard to imagine Bargnani's actual sample of possessions used is very low compared to the most players, as opposed to high as the writer is trying to infer.


    I do think Bargnani's man defense is ok. He doesn't leave his man and he doesn't go for pump fakes. He'll keep his hands up or out when his man has the ball. But I also think some of that leads to the problem of his defense in general. He doesn't leave his man so he doesn't help. He doesn't go for pump fakes because he never jumps - which is good outside the post, not necessarily so much while in the post or in a position to help protect the rim.

    In the pick and roll he was a hedging machine this past year. But he was also routine about it and got burned many times by his man simply slipping the screen.

    His help defense was simply bad yet again. And as Nilanka pointed out in todays NBA (of no hand checking) help defense is very important especially from big men.

    Rebounding has ofcourse always been, and likely always will be, an issue.

    I think 'robotic' would be the best way to judge Bargnani's D. It has seemed as if coaches have asked him to do X or Y while in a situation, and thats what he does. But there is little to no room for the unexpected to occur without it becoming a problem, amplified by slow decision making and reaction time while on D.

    There is little doubt in my mind that Casey system has had a profound impact. The team avoided offensive rebounds like they were a disease in order to run back and get into position. Slow pace to keep possessions low. Heavy doses of zone defenses.


    I think saying Bargnani is ok defensively in certain situations is fair, but taking a few isolated snap shots doesn't come close to describing the big picture.

  20. #20
    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Sofia,Bulgaria
    Posts
    180
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Agreed. Defensive rebounding is a huge part of the defense in general. How many guys have had career nights against the Raptors and/or Bargnani in the paint and on the glass.

    I don't care how many boards he grabs because it is a team game. As long as he boxes out and his man doesn't get the ball, I'm happy. The Raps have shown with him on the floor they can out rebound the opposition. Bargnani critics will likely say that is another example of lowering the bar for him.... and they'd be right when it comes to statistical rebounding. But to be honest, I don't give a shit anymore. He is such a unique talent and appears to be on the verge of really putting his career together whereby he capitalizes on his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses. If I'm wrong on that, he can pack his bags with Colangelo after next season ('13-14).
    I agree Matt. But I think as Blacklash mentioned when Bargnani seems uninterested it really pisses the fans off . I can not even imagine how the coaches feel. Because when you see the effort to shoot a difficult off balanced shot and the lack of effort to box out is sometimes extremely frustrating. The worst thing is that he is very talented. That can not be denied. Please don't get me wrong - I don't hate Bargnani. I can't say I like him too much either but he is on our team and we saw flashes of what he can be last season. I think that Bargnani is talented enough to be a good (not a great) but good DEFENDER in the league."If" is a huge word but if he plays like those famous 13 games last season and improves a bit we would have a really good franchise player. Like many of us I have been patient and yes, this must be it. This season - prove it or go somewhere else.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •