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Thread: Interesting article on DeRozan

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    Default Interesting article on DeRozan

    I'm more upbeat than this guy, but he gives an informed outsiders take and the concerns he raises are legitimate. The whole series is worth a read if you have some time and need an offseason NBA fix. He's also done Bargnani already.

    http://gothicginobili.com/?p=4051#more-4051

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Interesting read, on both players (look for "Player Capsules" upper right hand side). He says what many on this site have been saying, for both players. Also holds out the potential improvements from both players as rays of hope.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    thanks for sharing that.

    I don't see much to disagree with.

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    Excellent insight into DeRozan. Thanks.

    I found Kleiza's capsule at http://gothicginobili.com/?p=3733

    Bargnani at http://gothicginobili.com/?p=3929

    former Raptor Gary Forbes at http://gothicginobili.com/?p=3818

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    A lot of "Derozan isn't good enough, YET" implied in the capsule. I do agree with a lot, but potentially being a much better player this Summer makes me quite optimistic.

    Derozan already looked good in some instances with ball-handling and range in the Drew League - not NBA competition throughout the entire game - but if those individual things carry to training camp, he'll continue to tighten them up.

    Does anyone know which coach(es) is/are responsible for working with guards? I'm thinking Alvin Williams and Johnny Davis here.

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    I am souring on DeRozan a bit. I'm hopeful this is a good year for him

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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I am souring on DeRozan a bit. I'm hopeful this is a good year for him
    This is what all the potential eventually leads to, in my opinion:

    the make or break season.

    This season is going to determine his future in the NBA. Is he a legit player or is he one of the dime a dozen wings in the league?

    One thing I feel confident in saying is few players gets the opportunities to showcase their talent like DeRozan has.

    For the record, I really do hope he puts it all together and becomes a solid piece of the Raptors for years to come (but while hopeful I am not optimistic).

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This is what all the potential eventually leads to, in my opinion:

    the make or break season.

    This season is going to determine his future in the NBA. Is he a legit player or is he one of the dime a dozen wings in the league?

    One thing I feel confident in saying is few players gets the opportunities to showcase their talent like DeRozan has.

    For the record, I really do hope he puts it all together and becomes a solid piece of the Raptors for years to come (but while hopeful I am not optimistic).
    Well I couldn't say that it's a make or break season in the sense that it would drastically change his career in the NBA (Mainly cuz he's still 23 years old), but rather this is a make or break season in the sense that it would decide whether he stays with the Raptors to get traded out by the trade deadline. I feel like at the age of 23, it's still too early to determine his future in the NBA. There is still the possibility of improvement at his age especially in the 3pt and defensive compartment. But I do agree that I'm not too optimistic on his improvement, but I definitely wouldn't mind being proven wrong.

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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    Well I couldn't say that it's a make or break season in the sense that it would drastically change his career in the NBA (Mainly cuz he's still 23 years old), but rather this is a make or break season in the sense that it would decide whether he stays with the Raptors to get traded out by the trade deadline. I feel like at the age of 23, it's still too early to determine his future in the NBA. There is still the possibility of improvement at his age especially in the 3pt and defensive compartment. But I do agree that I'm not too optimistic on his improvement, but I definitely wouldn't mind being proven wrong.
    I agree with what you are saying but don't..... lol - if that makes any sense at all.

    I don't think (and I could very well be wrong) that he'll get the opportunity(ies) elsewhere that he has in Toronto. That is why I call it make or break. I also don't think he'll get the money elsewhere that he could in Toronto due to the RFA rules unless another team pulls a 'Landry'.

    He is still young at 23 but we are talking about this season and after this season he'll be 24. I am a firm believer bigs take a little longer to develop (please no one bring up Bargnani!) than wings. While he is 23 he has had 3 years as an NBA starter and again I keep coming back to the opportunities he has had to play - through good times and bad; through slumps and mistakes; offensively and defensively.

    I do hope all of this is a moot point and he shuts me up with his play. With Lowry and Bargnani hopefully healthy and playing to the full capabilities they have shown, scoring and offense are not even the issue with DD (although efficiency would be a minor one). I want to see him become a much better than average defender on the wing.

    I REALLY am rooting for him though. Despite my worthless internet ramblings on his play, he does seem like a good person.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    If Fields is not worth $6.25M then why would DeMar be worth $6M? I actually think Fields is a better player then DeMar. Fields can do other things beside scoring.

    If we were to resign DeMar I hope its in the $4.5M range (or less).

    I see more Shannon Brown in DeMar than anything else. Brown got a 2 year $7M contract. Granted he is 26 and DeMar is 23.. but I would say that DeMar should get about as much as Brown did.

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    Thanks for that link Good summer reading for sure. I really enjoyed reading the entry on Vince Carter too, which gets pretty far into the issue of superstar trade-me-now antics.

    Regarding DeRozan, I think the case is pretty simple. DeRozan has the ability to be a very good player, but has shown a lack of mental stamina for such a role. This is his contract year. If he shows himself to be turning the corner, then Toronto along with several other teams will offer him a pretty good two-to-three year deal. If not, he becomes B-grade sixth-man material and will command about a 40% lower price, possibly losing the interest of Toronto, which he could probably care less about.

    Right now, DeRozan is about the sixth-most exciting story on the Raptors' squad. It probably pains him to know this.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Beagle wrote: View Post
    Regarding DeRozan, I think the case is pretty simple. DeRozan has the ability to be a very good player, but has shown a lack of mental stamina for such a role.
    I very much agree with this, and the sentiment of the article in general. Personally I'm not worried about his jumpshooting or 3 pt shooting. All he needs to be is a threat (hit somewhere close to average) aslong as he can maintain his scoring around the rim, and improve on getting to the line.

    But its everything else thats questionable. Defense, rebounding, ball handling, passing. I've pretty much written of the last 2... its not often players 'learn' to be effective ball handlers and passers by the time they are in the NBA. But the first two? No reason for it, outside of the same Bargnanish reasons - lack of toughness, dedication and fortitude to get the job done.

    This is his contract year
    This is what scares me. Lets pretend Derozan does have a good or improved season. Where does one stand with him? Players having great contract years and then falling off a cliff is hardly an abnormality. Do you look at a good contract year as continued growth or someone finally willing to do the hard stuff so he gets payed? I know Derozan doesn't seem like 'that type' of player... but a big pay day may find him the courage to attack the rim or get dirty for a loose ball, which then disappears after the cheque is signed

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I very much agree with this, and the sentiment of the article in general. Personally I'm not worried about his jumpshooting or 3 pt shooting. All he needs to be is a threat (hit somewhere close to average) aslong as he can maintain his scoring around the rim, and improve on getting to the line.

    But its everything else thats questionable. Defense, rebounding, ball handling, passing. I've pretty much written of the last 2... its not often players 'learn' to be effective ball handlers and passers by the time they are in the NBA. But the first two? No reason for it, outside of the same Bargnanish reasons - lack of toughness, dedication and fortitude to get the job done.



    This is what scares me. Lets pretend Derozan does have a good or improved season. Where does one stand with him? Players having great contract years and then falling off a cliff is hardly an abnormality. Do you look at a good contract year as continued growth or someone finally willing to do the hard stuff so he gets payed? I know Derozan doesn't seem like 'that type' of player... but a big pay day may find him the courage to attack the rim or get dirty for a loose ball, which then disappears after the cheque is signed
    These are all solid points.... with one half exception that is relevant to DeRozan though.

    I don't want to side track the thread but I've seen enough from Bargnani to remove the questions regarding his lack of toughness, dedication, and fortitude and replace it with consistency (which can be argued to be crucial to those points I realize) and health. I wrote extensively at the start of the lockout season about how Bargnani would surprise people. Hopefully with health he can follow through and remove the asterisk of "but it was only 13 games!" ..... which was actually closer to 20 of 31 but whatever same idea as Fields getting $20M.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Demar Derozan does not have the killer instinct. He reminds me of a poor mans Joe Johnson a little bit, but without the amazing shooting ability or the iso ability.
    Although, what I've seen of DeRozan on a couple of tapes and videos, his ball-handling has significantly improved, and that open jumper/pull-up jumper does not look guard-able. Not to mention the fact he is already deadly in the open court.

    If Derozan can build into a Joe Johnson type player, I wouldn't be upset. Derozan having a capable handle, and a good outside jumper could easily average 20+ points, being he can score well even without a great handle/jump-shot.

    Wasn't he compared to Kobe and Vince when first drafted? I see the Kobe-esque scoring in his mid-ranged jump-shot and the post game, and the athleticism like Vince, but nothing else.

    I think we also have to cut Demar some slack here, it's like nobody remembers that he was extremely raw coming in to the league. Defensively there's no excuse, but offensively, with no other threat on the court, he will get pressured. And with his raw game, there's not much to go to.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Demar Derozan does not have the killer instinct. He reminds me of a poor mans Joe Johnson a little bit, but without the amazing shooting ability or the iso ability.
    Although, what I've seen of DeRozan on a couple of tapes and videos, his ball-handling has significantly improved, and that open jumper/pull-up jumper does not look guard-able. Not to mention the fact he is already deadly in the open court.

    If Derozan can build into a Joe Johnson type player, I wouldn't be upset. Derozan having a capable handle, and a good outside jumper could easily average 20+ points, being he can score well even without a great handle/jump-shot.

    Wasn't he compared to Kobe and Vince when first drafted? I see the Kobe-esque scoring in his mid-ranged jump-shot and the post game, and the athleticism like Vince, but nothing else.

    I think we also have to cut Demar some slack here, it's like nobody remembers that he was extremely raw coming in to the league. Defensively there's no excuse, but offensively, with no other threat on the court, he will get pressured. And with his raw game, there's not much to go to.
    DeRozan is a great example of why it should be mandatory 2-year minimum of NCAA time, instead of 1. Explosive athleticism can allow you succeed in the NCAA, but not so much in the NBA (there are many more examples of this than just DD). I think he would have greatly benefited by maturing and learning system play better, by spending another year in school.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    DeRozan is a great example of why it should be mandatory 2-year minimum of NCAA time, instead of 1. Explosive athleticism can allow you succeed in the NCAA, but not so much in the NBA (there are many more examples of this than just DD). I think he would have greatly benefited by maturing and learning system play better, by spending another year in school.
    And I totally agree with you there. An extra year would give these guys that year of experience and knowledge. Going through the whole entire process, and coming back and using it to your advantage. Also, a year of strengthening and working individually on his game would be better suited as well.

    But, remember his second year - the year he had his breakout year - would be his rookie season if stayed another year.

    Also, a second year could hurt the draft stock or value for a player in all circumstances. It's happened to the best of players i.e Sullinger, Jones, Barnes. Even more players from past drafts.

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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    And I totally agree with you there. An extra year would give these guys that year of experience and knowledge. Going through the whole entire process, and coming back and using it to your advantage. Also, a year of strengthening and working individually on his game would be better suited as well.

    But, remember his second year - the year he had his breakout year - would be his rookie season if stayed another year.

    Also, a second year could hurt the draft stock or value for a player in all circumstances. It's happened to the best of players i.e Sullinger, Jones, Barnes. Even more players from past drafts.
    There's obviously no perfect plan for every player, but DeRozan was an immature 19 year old kid who I don't think was mentally prepared for the NBA game. It's more about maturity, strength & conditioning and playing within a system, that kids get from another year of NCAA (assuming they're in a decent program). It gives them opportunity to deal with adversity and learn how to build chemistry with a team, rather than just focussing on showcasing individual skills that a lot of these 1-and-down guys do.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    There's obviously no perfect plan for every player, but DeRozan was an immature 19 year old kid who I don't think was mentally prepared for the NBA game. It's more about maturity, strength & conditioning and playing within a system, that kids get from another year of NCAA (assuming they're in a decent program). It gives them opportunity to deal with adversity and learn how to build chemistry with a team, rather than just focussing on showcasing individual skills that a lot of these 1-and-down guys do.
    True, but also, Demar's attitude was mature coming IN to the league. He had great poise and maturity, didn't say much, and played the game. I was a big fan of him in the first 2 years of his career, this past season I was surprised that he was constantly upset, and angry at calls. Getting T's and getting thrown out of a game? It wasn't him.

    I think the pressure got to him, and like you said, being an immature 1-and-down player, he didn't know how to handle it when it came by him.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    DeRozan is a great example of why it should be mandatory 2-year minimum of NCAA time, instead of 1. ... I think he would have greatly benefited by maturing and learning system play better, by spending another year in school.
    My bet is he learns alot more, alot quicker in his first year of NBA than he would have if he spent another year at USC.

    Further more, you've got guys like TMac, Kobe, Lebron, KG, Tyson Chandler, Al Harrington, Monta Ellis, Dwight, Amare, Josh Smith etc, who have all taken what started off as Freak athleticism in High School, and turned into Exceptional careers in the NBA.
    Without so much as a single day in the NCAA.

    Yes you also have guys like Gerald Green and Johnathan Bender who have NOT; but I don't think you can make a blanket statement such as yours without acknowledging that MANY players have succeeded with ZERO years of NCAA basketball.


    Not to mention he left USC so he could support his Dying Mother ...
    Last edited by Joey; Mon Aug 27th, 2012 at 05:50 PM.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    My bet is he learns alot more, alot quicker in his first year of NBA than he would have if he spent another year at USC.

    Further more, you've got guys like TMac, Kobe, Lebron, KG, Tyson Chandler, Al Harrington, Monta Ellis, Dwight, Amare, Josh Smith etc, who have all taken what started off as Freak athleticism in High School, and turned into Exceptional careers in the NBA.
    Without so much as a single day in the NCAA.

    Yes you also have guys like Gerald Green and Johnathan Bender who have NOT; but I don't think you can make a blanket statement such as yours without acknowledging that MANY players have succeeded with ZERO years of NCAA basketball.


    Not to mention he left USC so he could support his Dying Mother ...
    Hard to argue against history and numbers, but as of now, extra years in college are either great for a player, or bad. In Demar's case, it looks like it would have better been suited to stay another year.

    And I did not know about his mother's condition.... Wow, Demar is a good man though. I can tell he is a family man for sure.

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