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Thread: Interesting article on DeRozan

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter Mess's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    If he simply went up and crowned people (like we all know he is capable of) then he'd get the calls much more often.
    The problem is that doesn't happen often enough. He gets timid or something, when he doesn't see a clear path to the bucket he doesn't show the same explosiveness. When he drives and gets fouled the majority of the time he can't finish to get the and-1. Getting stronger will help with that.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    For sure, there is a huge mental hurdle for him. But we all know he has the hops to destroy people at the hoop ala VC and T-Mac in the "glory" years.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    For sure, there is a huge mental hurdle for him. But we all know he has the hops to destroy people at the hoop ala VC and T-Mac in the "glory" years.
    There's no way you can compare DeRozan to VC in his Toronto years. DeRozan doesn't have the handles, confidence or killer instinct the way Carter did, even in his rookie year. DeRozan might be able to improve his handles and outside shooting, as well as his defense, but the swagger/killer instinct is something you're born with, not something you practice in the gym or gain with experience.

  4. #24
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I could live with 5 or 6. I was thinking you meant like 8, 9, or 10 range.

    Assuming he doesn't have an outstanding year proving the naysayers wrong, I wonder how he would fare in a 6th man role?
    I think DeRozan would be an ideal 6th man scorer. Coming off the bench and playing against the opposition's 2nd unit players, would significantly mask DeRozan's greatest weaknesses - below average defense, poor peripheral stats (ie: rebounding & assists), average handles, terrible shooting range. His athleticism, improving handles and ability to get to the rim (and FT line) would be much greater assets when playing against weaker defenders. If he were ever to add an even somewhat improved 3pt shot, he could become a Barbosa/Terry-like sparkplug scorer off the bench.

    My only concern is that after starting since day one, would his ego allow it? Or would he be like Bayless and turn into a completly different player when he's not starting, because he's too busy moping, letting his ego and sense of entitlement get the better of him? If he embraced the role, I think he'd be a fantastic 6th man.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Aug 27th, 2012 at 11:56 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    There's no way you can compare DeRozan to VC in his Toronto years. DeRozan doesn't have the handles, confidence or killer instinct the way Carter did, even in his rookie year. DeRozan might be able to improve his handles and outside shooting, as well as his defense, but the swagger/killer instinct is something you're born with, not something you practice in the gym or gain with experience.
    My comparison was for dunking ability only. DeRozan has proven he has the hops to have given VC a run for his money in the dunk contest. My original point was (and remains) that DeRozan has the skill set and athleticism to be a force at the rim by dunking on people, and needs to stop trying to force the foul call that causes him to miss all these attempts at the rim. If he simply went up strong and dunk every time, regardless of the defence, then he'd get more free throw attempts and shoot a higher % at the rim.

  6. #26
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    My comparison was for dunking ability only. DeRozan has proven he has the hops to have given VC a run for his money in the dunk contest. My original point was (and remains) that DeRozan has the skill set and athleticism to be a force at the rim by dunking on people, and needs to stop trying to force the foul call that causes him to miss all these attempts at the rim. If he simply went up strong and dunk every time, regardless of the defence, then he'd get more free throw attempts and shoot a higher % at the rim.
    Fair enough. I just don't think it will ever 'click' for him though, because he's lacking that killer instinct that true star players have. If he had it, he would've been trying to dunk over people since day one. He plays soft and hopes the refs bail him out, which makes him look like a whiny kid half the time, so it's no surprise that he doesn't get most of the touch fouls, the way guys like Kobe/LBJ (extreme, I know) do. The players who force the issue, pay the price and make a name for themselves, are the players who get the calls - you make your own luck in the NBA, which DeRozan still hasn't figured out after 3 seasons. I doubt he ever will.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Fair enough. I just don't think it will ever 'click' for him though, because he's lacking that killer instinct that true star players have. If he had it, he would've been trying to dunk over people since day one. He plays soft and hopes the refs bail him out, which makes him look like a whiny kid half the time, so it's no surprise that he doesn't get most of the touch fouls, the way guys like Kobe/LBJ (extreme, I know) do. The players who force the issue, pay the price and make a name for themselves, are the players who get the calls - you make your own luck in the NBA, which DeRozan still hasn't figured out after 3 seasons. I doubt he ever will.
    Agreed. I do hope he can somehow "get it" this year, but I don't expect he will. Hopefully they can trade him at the deadline for something servicable or even a first rounder (late first rounder is certainly realistic, assuming his play hasn't improved from where it already is).

    Like someone else mentioned earlier, even if he does pull it together this year, how much money do you really want to give him? Is he a $8-$10Mil guy and can he sustain it in non-contract years? I think I'd prefer to trade him at the deadline (hopefully after a good season for more return) than to bank on him being consistent from here on out.

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    There's no way you can compare DeRozan to VC in his Toronto years.
    you absolutely can. He was talking specifically about athleticism/hops. Other aspects of the game would not likely be as fair to compare


    AND as I keep reading I see this was settled already lol

  9. #29
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Agreed. I do hope he can somehow "get it" this year, but I don't expect he will. Hopefully they can trade him at the deadline for something servicable or even a first rounder (late first rounder is certainly realistic, assuming his play hasn't improved from where it already is).

    Like someone else mentioned earlier, even if he does pull it together this year, how much money do you really want to give him? Is he a $8-$10Mil guy and can he sustain it in non-contract years? I think I'd prefer to trade him at the deadline (hopefully after a good season for more return) than to bank on him being consistent from here on out.
    My thoughts exactly. He's scheduled to make $3.3M this season, with a $4.53M QO after this year. Even if his season is on par with the last month of last season, I'm sure there are teams out there who would be willing to offer him $6-8M per season, given his age/stats/potential.

    For me, DeRozan's future with Toronto comes down to 3 factors:
    1. How much improvement does DeRozan show this year - does he become a star SG, or prove he's best suited for 6th man scorer role?
    2. Does Ross show an ability to effectively replace DeRozan as the "young, athletic starting SG with loads of potential, on a rookie-scale contract"?
    3. What would DeRozan (alone or in a bigger package deal) return in a possible trade, either at the deadline or as a S&T next offseason?

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    My thoughts exactly. He's scheduled to make $3.3M this season, with a $4.53M QO after this year. Even if his season is on par with the last month of last season, I'm sure there are teams out there who would be willing to offer him $6-8M per season, given his age/stats/potential.

    For me, DeRozan's future with Toronto comes down to 3 factors:
    1. How much improvement does DeRozan show this year - does he become a star SG, or prove he's best suited for 6th man scorer role?
    2. Does Ross show an ability to effectively replace DeRozan as the "young, athletic starting SG with loads of potential, on a rookie-scale contract"?
    3. What would DeRozan (alone or in a bigger package deal) return in a possible trade, either at the deadline or as a S&T next offseason?
    I would also add:

    Can DD and Ross play effectively together?

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Demar Derozan does not have the killer instinct. He reminds me of a poor mans Joe Johnson a little bit, but without the amazing shooting ability or the iso ability.
    Although, what I've seen of DeRozan on a couple of tapes and videos, his ball-handling has significantly improved, and that open jumper/pull-up jumper does not look guard-able. Not to mention the fact he is already deadly in the open court.

    If Derozan can build into a Joe Johnson type player, I wouldn't be upset. Derozan having a capable handle, and a good outside jumper could easily average 20+ points, being he can score well even without a great handle/jump-shot.

    Wasn't he compared to Kobe and Vince when first drafted? I see the Kobe-esque scoring in his mid-ranged jump-shot and the post game, and the athleticism like Vince, but nothing else.

    I think we also have to cut Demar some slack here, it's like nobody remembers that he was extremely raw coming in to the league. Defensively there's no excuse, but offensively, with no other threat on the court, he will get pressured. And with his raw game, there's not much to go to.

  12. #32
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Demar Derozan does not have the killer instinct. He reminds me of a poor mans Joe Johnson a little bit, but without the amazing shooting ability or the iso ability.
    Although, what I've seen of DeRozan on a couple of tapes and videos, his ball-handling has significantly improved, and that open jumper/pull-up jumper does not look guard-able. Not to mention the fact he is already deadly in the open court.

    If Derozan can build into a Joe Johnson type player, I wouldn't be upset. Derozan having a capable handle, and a good outside jumper could easily average 20+ points, being he can score well even without a great handle/jump-shot.

    Wasn't he compared to Kobe and Vince when first drafted? I see the Kobe-esque scoring in his mid-ranged jump-shot and the post game, and the athleticism like Vince, but nothing else.

    I think we also have to cut Demar some slack here, it's like nobody remembers that he was extremely raw coming in to the league. Defensively there's no excuse, but offensively, with no other threat on the court, he will get pressured. And with his raw game, there's not much to go to.
    DeRozan is a great example of why it should be mandatory 2-year minimum of NCAA time, instead of 1. Explosive athleticism can allow you succeed in the NCAA, but not so much in the NBA (there are many more examples of this than just DD). I think he would have greatly benefited by maturing and learning system play better, by spending another year in school.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    DeRozan is a great example of why it should be mandatory 2-year minimum of NCAA time, instead of 1. Explosive athleticism can allow you succeed in the NCAA, but not so much in the NBA (there are many more examples of this than just DD). I think he would have greatly benefited by maturing and learning system play better, by spending another year in school.
    And I totally agree with you there. An extra year would give these guys that year of experience and knowledge. Going through the whole entire process, and coming back and using it to your advantage. Also, a year of strengthening and working individually on his game would be better suited as well.

    But, remember his second year - the year he had his breakout year - would be his rookie season if stayed another year.

    Also, a second year could hurt the draft stock or value for a player in all circumstances. It's happened to the best of players i.e Sullinger, Jones, Barnes. Even more players from past drafts.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    And I totally agree with you there. An extra year would give these guys that year of experience and knowledge. Going through the whole entire process, and coming back and using it to your advantage. Also, a year of strengthening and working individually on his game would be better suited as well.

    But, remember his second year - the year he had his breakout year - would be his rookie season if stayed another year.

    Also, a second year could hurt the draft stock or value for a player in all circumstances. It's happened to the best of players i.e Sullinger, Jones, Barnes. Even more players from past drafts.
    There's obviously no perfect plan for every player, but DeRozan was an immature 19 year old kid who I don't think was mentally prepared for the NBA game. It's more about maturity, strength & conditioning and playing within a system, that kids get from another year of NCAA (assuming they're in a decent program). It gives them opportunity to deal with adversity and learn how to build chemistry with a team, rather than just focussing on showcasing individual skills that a lot of these 1-and-down guys do.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    There's obviously no perfect plan for every player, but DeRozan was an immature 19 year old kid who I don't think was mentally prepared for the NBA game. It's more about maturity, strength & conditioning and playing within a system, that kids get from another year of NCAA (assuming they're in a decent program). It gives them opportunity to deal with adversity and learn how to build chemistry with a team, rather than just focussing on showcasing individual skills that a lot of these 1-and-down guys do.
    True, but also, Demar's attitude was mature coming IN to the league. He had great poise and maturity, didn't say much, and played the game. I was a big fan of him in the first 2 years of his career, this past season I was surprised that he was constantly upset, and angry at calls. Getting T's and getting thrown out of a game? It wasn't him.

    I think the pressure got to him, and like you said, being an immature 1-and-down player, he didn't know how to handle it when it came by him.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    DeRozan is a great example of why it should be mandatory 2-year minimum of NCAA time, instead of 1. ... I think he would have greatly benefited by maturing and learning system play better, by spending another year in school.
    My bet is he learns alot more, alot quicker in his first year of NBA than he would have if he spent another year at USC.

    Further more, you've got guys like TMac, Kobe, Lebron, KG, Tyson Chandler, Al Harrington, Monta Ellis, Dwight, Amare, Josh Smith etc, who have all taken what started off as Freak athleticism in High School, and turned into Exceptional careers in the NBA.
    Without so much as a single day in the NCAA.

    Yes you also have guys like Gerald Green and Johnathan Bender who have NOT; but I don't think you can make a blanket statement such as yours without acknowledging that MANY players have succeeded with ZERO years of NCAA basketball.


    Not to mention he left USC so he could support his Dying Mother ...
    Last edited by Joey; Mon Aug 27th, 2012 at 05:50 PM.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    My bet is he learns alot more, alot quicker in his first year of NBA than he would have if he spent another year at USC.

    Further more, you've got guys like TMac, Kobe, Lebron, KG, Tyson Chandler, Al Harrington, Monta Ellis, Dwight, Amare, Josh Smith etc, who have all taken what started off as Freak athleticism in High School, and turned into Exceptional careers in the NBA.
    Without so much as a single day in the NCAA.

    Yes you also have guys like Gerald Green and Johnathan Bender who have NOT; but I don't think you can make a blanket statement such as yours without acknowledging that MANY players have succeeded with ZERO years of NCAA basketball.


    Not to mention he left USC so he could support his Dying Mother ...
    Hard to argue against history and numbers, but as of now, extra years in college are either great for a player, or bad. In Demar's case, it looks like it would have better been suited to stay another year.

    And I did not know about his mother's condition.... Wow, Demar is a good man though. I can tell he is a family man for sure.

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    You know, I'm not a huge Derozan fan (although i dont dislike him either) but I think the idea that he is soft and doesn't finish hard around the rim is bullshit, to be blunt. He draws a TON of fouls. I'm not saying he can't be even better but, let's at least criticize him for all the stuff he's bad at, instead of the stuff he's good at. The reason he doesn't 'crown' people more is because it is hard to dunk over defenders who are 4 inches taller than you And weigh 50 pounds more. If you foul a guy hard in the air, he usually won't finish, and the guys that do are often superstars. Derozan is totally willing to drive into a bigger defender and finish or get fouled. He does it all the time. He takes a beating most games, which is why he sometimes complains about not getting calls. But he still usually sucks it up and does what he does, and good for him.

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    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    You know, I'm not a huge Derozan fan (although i dont dislike him either) but I think the idea that he is soft and doesn't finish hard around the rim is bullshit, to be blunt. He draws a TON of fouls. I'm not saying he can't be even better but, let's at least criticize him for all the stuff he's bad at, instead of the stuff he's good at. The reason he doesn't 'crown' people more is because it is hard to dunk over defenders who are 4 inches taller than you And weigh 50 pounds more. If you foul a guy hard in the air, he usually won't finish, and the guys that do are often superstars. Derozan is totally willing to drive into a bigger defender and finish or get fouled. He does it all the time. He takes a beating most games, which is why he sometimes complains about not getting calls. But he still usually sucks it up and does what he does, and good for him.
    +1

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    You know, I'm not a huge Derozan fan (although i dont dislike him either) but I think the idea that he is soft and doesn't finish hard around the rim is bullshit, to be blunt. He draws a TON of fouls. I'm not saying he can't be even better but, let's at least criticize him for all the stuff he's bad at, instead of the stuff he's good at. The reason he doesn't 'crown' people more is because it is hard to dunk over defenders who are 4 inches taller than you And weigh 50 pounds more. If you foul a guy hard in the air, he usually won't finish, and the guys that do are often superstars. Derozan is totally willing to drive into a bigger defender and finish or get fouled. He does it all the time. He takes a beating most games, which is why he sometimes complains about not getting calls. But he still usually sucks it up and does what he does, and good for him.
    I would agree with you except the the number of times in the past 2 seasons where Derozan went up fully expecting the call to bail him out. The only time he finishes at the rim is when there is no one else around him. Put any form of defence near the hoop and he goes up for the foul, not for the finish.

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