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Thread: Feeling down on the Raptors? Please tell me why.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Feeling down on the Raptors? Please tell me why.

    As the Raptors are currently constructed with players, coaches, and management could you please tell me why you are down on the Raptors if you feel that way. This is my biased perspective but I find many people argue against the optimistic view without providing any insightful or concrete reasons why the Raptors are not improving or making progress.

    The standard reasons for pessimism that I am aware of include:

    • Colangelo is incompetent.
    • Historically the Raptors suck, why should things change now.
    • Toronto should not have an NBA team because no one wants to play in Toronto.
    • Toronto has no franchise talent or All-Star and that is the only way to win in the NBA.
    • Championships are the only thing that matter.



    So, if you are of this persuasion, please tell me why the Raptors are not improving or making progress?

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    drafting terrence ross over jeremy lamb. for one.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    drafting terrence ross over jeremy lamb. for one.
    Do you mean the Jeremy Lamb that Devoe Joseph outplayed in summer league, that Jeremy Lamb

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    drafting terrence ross over jeremy lamb. for one.
    You've gotta be kidding me.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    As the Raptors are currently constructed with players, coaches, and management could you please tell me why you are down on the Raptors if you feel that way. This is my biased perspective but I find many people argue against the optimistic view without providing any insightful or concrete reasons why the Raptors are not improving or making progress.

    The standard reasons for pessimism that I am aware of include:

    • Colangelo is incompetent.
    • Historically the Raptors suck, why should things change now.
    • Toronto should not have an NBA team because no one wants to play in Toronto.
    • Toronto has no franchise talent or All-Star and that is the only way to win in the NBA.
    • Championships are the only thing that matter.



    So, if you are of this persuasion, please tell me why the Raptors are not improving or making progress?
    I could also see much impatience. They want results now, they want an all-star, they want recognition.
    If you want this, cheer for the Miami Heat, or the Los Angeles Lakers.

    We are only a 17 year old team people. There are teams in the league who have as many rings, as we've been in the league...
    We are growing, and building a culture in the right way.

    Rome wasn't built in a day. Cliche, I know. But it's a truth, and getting results is a process.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    We are growing, and building a culture in the right way.

    Rome wasn't built in a day. Cliche, I know. But it's a truth, and getting results is a process.
    How can you honestly say this?
    We've had maybe 4 years out of the 17 that have been better than bad, we've hired some of the worst coaches in the business, given away all-stars to other teams every 4 years, drafted in the top 10 like 12 of those 17 years, made it out of the 1st round just once, we're mismanaged and easily one of the 5 worst run franchises in the last 15 years of the NBA.

    On top of all that the NBA is treated like a 2nd class sport in this country yet ticket prices are minimum 3 digits for any seat worth sitting in.

    The addition of Kyle Lowry is great, I'm a big fan of the guy, I hope he kills it. I hope V is as advertised, the great Lithuanian hype comes through and becomes our centre for the next 10 years.
    But that tiny bit of optimism is based on nothing but hope, the pessimism is based on 17 years of facts and disappointments.

    I don't want a championship, I want a team that can actually compete. If we're the Atlanta Hawks for the next 10 years I'll be overjoyed, but so far we've been the Golden State Warriors without even that one first round upset to keep us happy on cold nights when we're getting blown out by the likes of the Bucks and Kings.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    I'm not feeling down on the Raps at all - can honestly say this is the most optimistic i've ever been about the coming season, and overall future of the franchise ... the talent upgrades, coaching staff competence, stability in the front office ... Go Raps!
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    The addition of Kyle Lowry is great, I'm a big fan of the guy, I hope he kills it. I hope V is as advertised, the great Lithuanian hype comes through and becomes our centre for the next 10 years.
    But that tiny bit of optimism is based on nothing but hope, the pessimism is based on 17 years of facts and disappointments.
    Might seem obvious to you, but i'm not really sure what the last 17 years has to do with this Raptors team?
    Where were Dwane Casey, Bryan Colangelo, Kyle Lowry, Andrew Bargnani, Jonas Valanciunas, etc, etc, 17 years ago. I look to the past season, and the coming season - as the best measure of what we have ... hang in there, we can be another ATL at the very least
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I'm not down on the Raps. But it's the whole "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" scenario developing. I've been optimistic many times in the past only to see the Raptors come up short against pre-season expectations. You can't help but feel like a dumbass every time the Raptors disappoint.

    So although I admit that we have improved the team on paper compared to last season (while maintaining future flexibility), how much of an improvement remains to be seen. It's why they play the games, right? Call me "cautiously optimistic" until this team actually has quantifiable results to measure improvement against (i.e. wins and losses).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    I am optimistic, just like every year...but maybe a little more so this year. I like the depth we have at every position with maybe the exception of the 5 spot, although the future is in the house and needs a year to solidify himself as an NBA player.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I'm not down on the Raps. But it's the whole "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" scenario developing. I've been optimistic many times in the past only to see the Raptors come up short against pre-season expectations. You can't help but feel like a dumbass every time the Raptors disappoint.

    So although I admit that we have improved the team on paper compared to last season (while maintaining future flexibility), how much of an improvement remains to be seen. It's why they play the games, right? Call me "cautiously optimistic" until this team actually has quantifiable results to measure improvement against (i.e. wins and losses).
    I understand your reaction, I think a lot of fans feel this way. I just don't subscribe to the theory that I should feel badly because my team didn't perform up to the expectations that the fanbase puts on them each spring.

    I like the optimistic approach to my team and hoping that they are able to deliever on their potential, why else to people play sports? When I go to men's league or to pick up ball, I believe that I am going to have a great shooting night every night. I don't. But I don't get down on playing ball afterwards. that's what sports is all about. Winning is nice too don't get me wrong, but there is much more to it than that.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote CT2010 wrote: View Post
    I understand your reaction, I think a lot of fans feel this way. I just don't subscribe to the theory that I should feel badly because my team didn't perform up to the expectations that the fanbase puts on them each spring.

    I like the optimistic approach to my team and hoping that they are able to deliever on their potential, why else to people play sports? When I go to men's league or to pick up ball, I believe that I am going to have a great shooting night every night. I don't. But I don't get down on playing ball afterwards. that's what sports is all about. Winning is nice too don't get me wrong, but there is much more to it than that.
    Exactly. I think that's where the optimism vs. pessimism / "dreamer" vs. "realist" divide comes from. Pessimists seem to feel like their intelligence is being tested by the moves their favourite team makes -- the "I don't want to get fooled" syndrome. Optimists don't care.

    Neither side is any more valid than the other. I prefer to err on the optimism side, since it's a lot more fun and less aggravating than the alternative. I guess it also depends on how seriously you take your 'sports entertainment', too.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't get the pessimism right now. The team has made a lot of positive changes to the roster (subjective until proven) and showed a lot of promise last year (objective improvement to the defence). There aren't many professional writers around the league disagreeing with the moves the Raptors made, so why would "fans" of the team complain?

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Personally, I don't get the pessimism right now. The team has made a lot of positive changes to the roster (subjective until proven) and showed a lot of promise last year (objective improvement to the defence). There aren't many professional writers around the league disagreeing with the moves the Raptors made, so why would "fans" of the team complain?
    I agree. We have to calm our expectations/optimism though.

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    Occasionally there is a Cinderella story where a losing team turns it around and improves their win percentage by 20-30% and makes a playoff run. If the Raptors pull that off I'll be amazed and happy however it isn't something I'm expecting or would bet to take place. If they get lucky on the injury front, discover the rookies can play and have most of the guys playing at the top of their game I'm guessing 38 wins. However that means they could be in striking distance of the playoffs with 15 games to go. If that happens maybe they can overcome the odds, get super motivated and make a big run down the stretch and end up with up to 45 wins.
    It could also go the other way with bad chemistry, less than expected from all the new guys and with JC and AB again showing why they haven't been able to lead their team successfully in the last 6-7 years. Nobody knows at this point what it will be but chances are they won't be as good as the most optimistic believe or as bad as the pessimist says.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    I'm optimistic in the sense that I think the Raptors will be a much better team this upcoming season than they were last year.

    They've upgraded the point guard, small forward and centre positions. They got deeper. They got more athletic. Dwayne Casey did a great job last season despite trotting out a D-league line up for the last third of the season and he will have more weapons at his disposal this year. On paper, they should be an improved team on both sides of the ball. I love what they did this offseason.

    Having said all that I think they will still be in tough to make the playoffs, so it's hard to get really pumped up about the team even though it will be a much better product to watch on a game to game basis next season. Miami, Boston, New York, Brooklyn, Indiana, Philadelphia and Chicago make seven playoff teams from the East, which means that the Raps will be battling the Hawks and Bucks (maybe the Wizards if they make a leap) for that last spot. The playoffs would be an overachievement next season, and a trip to the lottery nets us nothing in terms of assets as the Rockets have our pick.

    It would be great if the team is still playing meaningful games down the stretch as they try to squeak into the postseason but it's not the type of scenario that has me in a frenzy as a fan. I have been an avid supporter since day one of this franchise and I'm at the point where grabbing a bottom seed in the playoffs just to get steamrolled by the Heat isn't a particularly appealing scenario either. Yes, it would be a welcome change from the last couple of years and a step in the right direction, but I can't say I look back at the past Raptor teams that got thumped in the first round with fond memories necessarily. Selfishly, I want the team to compete for a championship. Whether it's considered pessimistic or just realistic, I still think we're a long ways away.
    Last edited by Fully; Mon Sep 10th, 2012 at 01:15 PM.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I'm optimistic in the sense that I think the Raptors will be a much better team this upcoming season than they were last year.

    They've upgraded the point guard, small forward and centre positions. They got deeper. They got more athletic. Dwayne Casey did a great job last season despite trotting out a D-league line up for the last third of the season and he will have more weapons at his disposal this year. On paper, they should be an improved team on both sides of the ball. I love what they did this offseason.

    Having said all that I think they will still be in tough to make the playoffs, so it's hard to get really pumped up about the team even though it will be a much better product to watch on a game to game basis next season. Miami, Boston, New York, Brooklyn, Indiana, Philadelphia and Chicago make seven playoff teams from the East, which means that the Raps will be battling the Hawks and Bucks (maybe the Wizards if they make a leap) for that last spot. The playoffs would be an overachievement next season, and a trip to the lottery nets us nothing in terms of assets as the Rockets have our pick.

    It would be great if the team is still playing meaningful games down the stretch as they try to squeak into the postseason but it's not the type of scenario that has me in a frenzy as a fan. I have been an avid supporter since day one of this franchise and I'm at the point where grabbing a bottom seed in the playoffs just to get steamrolled by the Heat isn't a particularly appealing scenario either. Yes, it would be a welcome change from the last couple of years and a step in the right direction, but I can't say I look back at the past Raptor teams that got thumped in the first round with fond memories necessarily. Selfishly, I want the team to compete for a championship. Whether it's considered pessimistic or just realistic, I still think we're a long ways away.
    I don't think your last statement is pessimistic at all. The Raps are a long way from competing for a Championship, but I would suggest that outside of 4ish teams all franchises are in the same boat to verying degrees. If you think the Nets are going to compete against the Lakers, the Heat, OKC for a title, they are not. They are major pieces away from that as well, and have a crippling salary to show for it. Are they farther along than the Raps, probably, but will win the exact same number of titles as we will this year.

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    Quote CT2010 wrote: View Post
    Do you mean the Jeremy Lamb that Devoe Joseph outplayed in summer league, that Jeremy Lamb
    Nonsense

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    Raptors Republic Rookie pillowmint's Avatar
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    I think as someone in Toronto who holds out hope for all teams Toronto, it's just been a hard go. Especially with ESPN Mag rating the Jays at #79, the Raps at #103, and the Leafs at the bottom. It's made harder because they're right. We pay too much for a product that isn't that good, and all too often we're ok with it. I think we made some strides, but where does it get us...maybe into the playoffs? Is that good enough? I hate it when I'm labelled a hater for wanting more, what is wrong with wanting more?
    Look at the top 2 teams on ESPN's poll OKC and Green Bay, it's not like OKC or Wisconsin are hot beds for sports yet they've made a committment to their fan base to work hard to be the best. I just don't feel like MLSE is projecting that same image, not that they're not trying, but that it isn't consistant. We tried with Bosh, but at what point does a GM say 'look, we're losing this guy no matter what, let's try and get something for it' Instead we were left empty handed. It's time for MLSE to become proactive as opposed to sitting on their hands. When Lowry comes in and has a good season, are we going to wait to give him money, or tangle with his contract and send mixed signals?
    There isn't anything wrong with Toronto, that perception needs to go away, but as fans maybe it's time we demand more. I for one am not going to spend $80-100 a Raps game just so that I can go out. I want to believe in my damned team because I'm from Toronto, and I'm proud of Toronto, so I want a team that resembles my pride and act like it every damned day of their lives! (insert braveheart make-up and gigantic sword). Just look at this board, all we do is talk about our team (good or bad) we are the die hard fans. And as Wu-tang once put it "Die hard fans de-mand more"

    Thank you for your time!
    i8theball.com it's a website...about, you know....basketball.

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    Lamb was tearing it up in the summer league. Ross had some highlight reel moments, also but that was just summer league. I have a wait and see attitude with the Raptors rookies before I pass judgement on the last two drafts.

    I believe that, barring unforeseen injuries, the Raptors will be more competitive this season than in the past few. I have faith in Casey's coaching abilities and considering the limitations of the free agency scenario this summer, Colangelo did well in filling roster spots.

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