Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.
I'm not saying BC is perfect, nor am I completely happy with the offseason. However, I believe BC tried the best he could to improve the team without giving up every single asset and/or mortgaging the future of the franchise by taking on bad contracts. I also think the team is much improved over last year. The Raps aren't a championship contender, but I fully support the direction the team is going.
All I was trying to say is that if you're going to crap on BC's overall building strategy, complain about the roster and everything else, the least you can do is give some input as to what/how you would have liked to have seen things done differently, or what alternative option you would prefer in the future. Pointing out a team that lucked into Durant and built through the draft (which BC is now doing in Toronto), as a model to follow, isn't all that constructive... I'd even argue that Toronto IS following that model, so how/why complain?
I'm assuming you are refering to another thread (which by the way has nothing to do with my comment on building around Bosh as BC's mistake) Maybe you need to read what I wrote:
Amazing how much different what one writes can be from what one chooses to read. Clearly thats "crapping on everything" and pointing out a "model" to follow (which by the way is a bit hilarious to read because if I did point out a 'model to follow' wouldn't that be considered a 'plan'? And therefore I wasn't 'whining' - turns out I followed your rules after all. Do I get the apology now or later?)First off let me state that OKC was only an example to make a comparison. And I'll add what Presti did in OKC is immensely more complex and long term than "drafting Durant". That he got his Durant (ie. his first stud) made it work to near perfection - but lets not try to simplify 4 or 5 years of rebuilding into one action.
Anyways to the point, while you may be on the 'pro-winning' side, I'm on the 'pro-having long term success' side or the 'pro-not recycling the same process every 5 years' side. Whether that means winning or losing now or in the near future I don't really care.
But looking at this team it looks to me more like the 'cross my fingers and hope my plan works' team. Bargnani and Demar have shown no consistency. Val and Ross haven't played a minute in the NBA yet. Thats 4 of the 5 most significant long term peices on this team. The Raptors record or position in the standings won't necessarily mean much if its not built on actual on the court talent.
The 2006/07 Raptors won 47 games, were ranked 3rd in the east, and took that so called 'step forward' - the following year 41 games, the years after out of the playoffs. Why? The ceiling was low and their success was built on the weakness of the east not the strength of their team. As the east got better, and the 'potential' of their players started leveling out, they were exposed.
I see the Raptors finishing somewhere between 7th and 11th. But honestly I'm more concerned with how they get there than where they are. So just using those two end points - if they are 7th and we are still questioning Bargnani and Demar while needing to make excuses for Ross and Val I don't see that as a step forward. If they are 11th and one or more have stood out I'll see that as progress.
Last edited by Craiger; Thu Sep 20th, 2012 at 04:16 PM.
I don't get hyped or down on anything anymore. I react to what is actually happening. If they suck I will be upset. If they don't I will be happy. Simple as that.
It's an organization must make his fans hyped about the team! Sports is not politic where you are supposed to be serious
Let's go Raptors!
He's been with us for 6 seasons and we are looking at a team that has made two playoff appearances and won 3 total playoff games. Think about this for a minute. Colangelo has dug himself in such a huge hole that for him to finish with a 0.500 record as a Raptor, we'd need to win at least 46 games for the next 6 years in a row.
To answer the thread question -- if people are down on the Raptors this season what's their reasoning -- here it is. It's because Colangelo has yet to give us a reason to hope. We are not going to start the 46+ wins streak this season, that's for sure.
The hope is where I disagree. There is a young roster than has by no means reached their full potential. TR and JV are high lottery picks - the holy grail of hope in basketball. There is considerable financial flexibility. Dwane Casey is in the upper third of coaches in the league, in my opinion. Last season was an incredible showing in terms of the now cliche "culture change." I see hope all around the Raptors.
Your comments on the performance is spot on, in my opinion. The results overall are dreadful. There are numerous factors in why that is the case but at the end of the day results are what matter and they have been missing. I do hope Colangelo's team option is picked up and if by the end of next season (2013-14) the Raps are not a legit playoff team then it is time to say goodbye. For now though I do see reason for hope.... but if one is going purely on the results of the last 4 years then I can absolutely understand the lack of hope/optimism/faith/etc.
Nilanka: Do you want to watch the Raptors against Washington pre-season? Oct 17 7pm. I was thinking about just giving those away.
Someone's giving away tickets?
All I was really trying to figure out is what exactly would make you happy? I don't mean the results, as we'd obviously all like a championship caliber team, or at least a team that continuously improves (ie: fighting for playoffs, making playoffs, fighting to make 2nd round, etc...) and does so is a sustainable fashion.
The majority of people on here admit/know/realize/accept that there have been some positives and negatives when it comes to BC's decision-making over the years, but most people have been happy with the change of direction in the post-Bosh era - ie: personnel moves, removing bad salaries, hiring Casey, etc... and see all these moves as a positive step in the right direction.
So, aside from just having years worth of bad taste in your mouth for BC and management/ownership, I'm just struggling to understand what has you feeling so down on the future of the franchise over the next few seasons. I'm asking you out of curiosity only, not asking you to 'prove' or 'justify' your opinion, or anything like that. Without understanding your complaints/rationale, it just sounds like "BC Bashing/Hate", since it's pretty obvious that the post-Bosh BC is taking a completely different strategy than the Bosh-era BC (at least it is to me and seemingly the majority of folks on here). Maybe it's just that I'm looking only at the post-Bosh era and the future, whereas you can't get past the entirety of BC's reign... in which case we're talking about two different things and will likely never see eye-to-eye.
Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Sep 21st, 2012 at 04:29 PM.
I've been up and down with the Raps. I was.....
Up when Vince was here
Down when he wanted to be traded
Down at the result of the trade
Up at the Babcock firing
Up at the Colagelo hiring
Down at the Bargnani coddling
Up at the Sam Mitchell firing
Down when I found out who was taking his place
Up at the Triano "re-assigning"
Up at the Casey hiring
Down when the season was shortened
Up when the season ended with more wins than 2010-2011 season
Down at the Nash sweepstakes
Up at the Lowry signing
Down at the Fields signing
UP at the prospect that Coach Casey has full training camp and a slightly better roster to work with
An example from this thread of what I mean. You referred to how OKC built their team as 'luck' and stated that taking that route is therefore 'not constructive'. Immediately discrediting anyone from arguing organic growth of the team around a drafted superstar as an option to follow. So how could someone who thinks that is the model to follow now explain themselves to your satisfaction? You've already blocked their preference as not feasible (lucky), therefore it shouldn't be considered (not constructive). They are left with either being content with the changes or not argue against the changes, as that would be 'whining' or 'bashing' or 'hating'.
What you did was frame the discussion to eliminate one opinion (and probably a rather common opinion). Anyone believing something outside that mold is either not expressing their opinion fairly or expressing it without merit. So if I believed trying to do what OKC did is the preferred method for this team to follow, and trying to build another way makes me pessimistic about the Raptors future - how do I possibly argue my opinion without being considered a basher/whiner/hater?
Sure sounds like a 'lose-lose' debate for someone to have.
That is a solid post.
My concern with the 'OKC model' is there are many things out of the control of management that must go right before management can have control of the situation. I think it really is a situation where all your ducks are already lined off in a row before great decisions are made.
If you take a look at the movers and shakers in the league, they have a lot of players in ESPN's top 30. So, for example, OKC has 3 in the top 26, Miami 3 in the top 20, including the league's best player by a mile, Boston 3 in the top 30, San Antonio 3 in the top 27, the Lakers have 4 in the top 20, including the #2 player in the league. The Raptors have Lowry at 51 and Bargs at 58. Calderon barely hangs onto top 100 status. Obviously JV and Ross are unknowns. If you're talking about them, fine. If you're talking about Davis/Fields/Derozan, forget it. That's who they are.
I'm down on the Raptors because I am hearing rumours about JV hurting his ankle and I have learned with the Raptors to expect the worst possible outcome of any rumour.
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