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Thread: Feeling down on the Raptors? Please tell me why.

  1. #81
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Bosh was already the face of the franchise, both on and off the court, before BC arrived. He was an up-and-coming star player. What would you suggest that BC should have done? You make it seem like there are draft picks, trades and free agent signings just waiting to happen to deliver a LeBron/Durant type player to Toronto, but that BC chooses to ignore those opportunities. That's simply not the case.

    You continue to crap all over ownership, management and BC's direction, but you've yet to suggest an alternative, more effective approach. You mentioned the "OKC model", which I thought was to build through the draft, which is exactly what BC has been doing. He made the best possible picks, so you can't exactly fault him for DeRozan/Davis/Valanciunas/Ross not equalling Durant/Westbrook (Durant was luck - how good would OKC look if they took Oden at #2?). Plus, you have to give Valanciunas & Ross (at least) time to develop, as there's no telling how impactful they could become. Who knows, with one good trade and perhaps a free agent signing next offseason, with draft picks forming a good chunk of the core (Bargnani, DeRozan, Valanciunas, Ross and maybe even Davis), people could start talking about the "post-Bosh TR model".
    And despite what has transpired over the past 2 seasons, had Bosh not chosen to go to Miami to play with Lebron and Wade, he'd still be the (albeit flawed) cornerstone of some NBA franchise today, Toronto or elsewhere. Colangelo played the hand dealt to him, made some mistakes, and moved on -- in what seems to be the right direction... so far. Fans need to do the same.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  2. #82
    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    You continue to crap all over ownership, management and BC's direction, but you've yet to suggest an alternative, more effective approach.
    When you watch a bad movie do you simply say "Well I couldn't have made anything better so I can't criticize it"?

  3. #83
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Bosh was already the face of the franchise, both on and off the court, before BC arrived. He was an up-and-coming star player. What would you suggest that BC should have done? You make it seem like there are draft picks, trades and free agent signings just waiting to happen to deliver a LeBron/Durant type player to Toronto, but that BC chooses to ignore those opportunities. That's simply not the case.

    You continue to crap all over ownership, management and BC's direction, but you've yet to suggest an alternative, more effective approach. You mentioned the "OKC model", which I thought was to build through the draft, which is exactly what BC has been doing. He made the best possible picks, so you can't exactly fault him for DeRozan/Davis/Valanciunas/Ross not equalling Durant/Westbrook (Durant was luck - how good would OKC look if they took Oden at #2?). Plus, you have to give Valanciunas & Ross (at least) time to develop, as there's no telling how impactful they could become. Who knows, with one good trade and perhaps a free agent signing next offseason, with draft picks forming a good chunk of the core (Bargnani, DeRozan, Valanciunas, Ross and maybe even Davis), people could start talking about the "post-Bosh TR model".
    You managed to get all that from "Bosh as a franchise player was BC's mistake"? Wow.

  4. #84
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    When you watch a bad movie do you simply say "Well I couldn't have made anything better so I can't criticize it"?
    When I complain about anything, it's usually followed with "If I had made it..." or "If I was in charge..." type statements, absolutely. Just complaining without interjecting a way to address what it is you're complaining about, is just whining.

    I'm not saying BC is perfect, nor am I completely happy with the offseason. However, I believe BC tried the best he could to improve the team without giving up every single asset and/or mortgaging the future of the franchise by taking on bad contracts. I also think the team is much improved over last year. The Raps aren't a championship contender, but I fully support the direction the team is going.

    All I was trying to say is that if you're going to crap on BC's overall building strategy, complain about the roster and everything else, the least you can do is give some input as to what/how you would have liked to have seen things done differently, or what alternative option you would prefer in the future. Pointing out a team that lucked into Durant and built through the draft (which BC is now doing in Toronto), as a model to follow, isn't all that constructive... I'd even argue that Toronto IS following that model, so how/why complain?

  5. #85
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    When I complain about anything, it's usually followed with "If I had made it..." or "If I was in charge..." type statements, absolutely. Just complaining without interjecting a way to address what it is you're complaining about, is just whining.I'm not saying BC is perfect, nor am I completely happy with the offseason. However, I believe BC tried the best he could to improve the team without giving up every single asset and/or mortgaging the future of the franchise by taking on bad contracts. I also think the team is much improved over last year. The Raps aren't a championship contender, but I fully support the direction the team is going.

    All I was trying to say is that if you're going to crap on BC's overall building strategy, complain about the roster and everything else, the least you can do is give some input as to what/how you would have liked to have seen things done differently, or what alternative option you would prefer in the future. Pointing out a team that lucked into Durant and built through the draft (which BC is now doing in Toronto), as a model to follow, isn't all that constructive... I'd even argue that Toronto IS following that model, so how/why complain?
    Glad your explaing the rules of how one should express their own opinion. I've got your checklist down now - so I'll make sure I do my very best to meet your demands, as being an individual would be a terrible thing.

    I'm assuming you are refering to another thread (which by the way has nothing to do with my comment on building around Bosh as BC's mistake) Maybe you need to read what I wrote:

    First off let me state that OKC was only an example to make a comparison. And I'll add what Presti did in OKC is immensely more complex and long term than "drafting Durant". That he got his Durant (ie. his first stud) made it work to near perfection - but lets not try to simplify 4 or 5 years of rebuilding into one action.

    Anyways to the point, while you may be on the 'pro-winning' side, I'm on the 'pro-having long term success' side or the 'pro-not recycling the same process every 5 years' side. Whether that means winning or losing now or in the near future I don't really care.

    But looking at this team it looks to me more like the 'cross my fingers and hope my plan works' team. Bargnani and Demar have shown no consistency. Val and Ross haven't played a minute in the NBA yet. Thats 4 of the 5 most significant long term peices on this team. The Raptors record or position in the standings won't necessarily mean much if its not built on actual on the court talent.

    The 2006/07 Raptors won 47 games, were ranked 3rd in the east, and took that so called 'step forward' - the following year 41 games, the years after out of the playoffs. Why? The ceiling was low and their success was built on the weakness of the east not the strength of their team. As the east got better, and the 'potential' of their players started leveling out, they were exposed.

    I see the Raptors finishing somewhere between 7th and 11th. But honestly I'm more concerned with how they get there than where they are. So just using those two end points - if they are 7th and we are still questioning Bargnani and Demar while needing to make excuses for Ross and Val I don't see that as a step forward. If they are 11th and one or more have stood out I'll see that as progress.
    Amazing how much different what one writes can be from what one chooses to read. Clearly thats "crapping on everything" and pointing out a "model" to follow (which by the way is a bit hilarious to read because if I did point out a 'model to follow' wouldn't that be considered a 'plan'? And therefore I wasn't 'whining' - turns out I followed your rules after all. Do I get the apology now or later?)
    Last edited by Craiger; Thu Sep 20th, 2012 at 05:16 PM.

  6. #86
    Raptors Republic Starter Pill's Avatar
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    I don't get hyped or down on anything anymore. I react to what is actually happening. If they suck I will be upset. If they don't I will be happy. Simple as that.

  7. #87
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Pill wrote: View Post
    I don't get hyped or down on anything anymore. I react to what is actually happening. If they suck I will be upset. If they don't I will be happy. Simple as that.

    +1 to that.

    Too much emotion being spent on speculation. We can all agree to disagree and then see where the team is at the end of January.

  8. #88
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Pill wrote: View Post
    I don't get hyped or down on anything anymore. I react to what is actually happening. If they suck I will be upset. If they don't I will be happy. Simple as that.
    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    +1 to that.

    Too much emotion being spent on speculation. We can all agree to disagree and then see where the team is at the end of January.
    Seriously?

    What is the fun in that!?!?!


  9. #89
    Raptors Republic Rookie teoserio's Avatar
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    It's an organization must make his fans hyped about the team! Sports is not politic where you are supposed to be serious
    Let's go Raptors!

  10. #90
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    When I complain about anything, it's usually followed with "If I had made it..." or "If I was in charge..." type statements, absolutely. Just complaining without interjecting a way to address what it is you're complaining about, is just whining.

    I'm not saying BC is perfect, nor am I completely happy with the offseason. However, I believe BC tried the best he could to improve the team without giving up every single asset and/or mortgaging the future of the franchise by taking on bad contracts. I also think the team is much improved over last year. The Raps aren't a championship contender, but I fully support the direction the team is going.

    All I was trying to say is that if you're going to crap on BC's overall building strategy, complain about the roster and everything else, the least you can do is give some input as to what/how you would have liked to have seen things done differently, or what alternative option you would prefer in the future. Pointing out a team that lucked into Durant and built through the draft (which BC is now doing in Toronto), as a model to follow, isn't all that constructive... I'd even argue that Toronto IS following that model, so how/why complain?
    I don't think there is anything wrong with criticizing a person's job performance without offering a better solution. We're not little kids here where "trying your best" is the only job requirement. His job is to make this team good and we haven't been good. Not by a longshot.

    He's been with us for 6 seasons and we are looking at a team that has made two playoff appearances and won 3 total playoff games. Think about this for a minute. Colangelo has dug himself in such a huge hole that for him to finish with a 0.500 record as a Raptor, we'd need to win at least 46 games for the next 6 years in a row.

    To answer the thread question -- if people are down on the Raptors this season what's their reasoning -- here it is. It's because Colangelo has yet to give us a reason to hope. We are not going to start the 46+ wins streak this season, that's for sure.

  11. #91
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I don't think there is anything wrong with criticizing a person's job performance without offering a better solution. We're not little kids here where "trying your best" is the only job requirement. His job is to make this team good and we haven't been good. Not by a longshot.

    He's been with us for 6 seasons and we are looking at a team that has made two playoff appearances and won 3 total playoff games. Think about this for a minute. Colangelo has dug himself in such a huge hole that for him to finish with a 0.500 record as a Raptor, we'd need to win at least 46 games for the next 6 years in a row.

    To answer the thread question -- if people are down on the Raptors this season what's their reasoning -- here it is. It's because Colangelo has yet to give us a reason to hope. We are not going to start the 46+ wins streak this season, that's for sure.

    The hope is where I disagree. There is a young roster than has by no means reached their full potential. TR and JV are high lottery picks - the holy grail of hope in basketball. There is considerable financial flexibility. Dwane Casey is in the upper third of coaches in the league, in my opinion. Last season was an incredible showing in terms of the now cliche "culture change." I see hope all around the Raptors.

    Your comments on the performance is spot on, in my opinion. The results overall are dreadful. There are numerous factors in why that is the case but at the end of the day results are what matter and they have been missing. I do hope Colangelo's team option is picked up and if by the end of next season (2013-14) the Raps are not a legit playoff team then it is time to say goodbye. For now though I do see reason for hope.... but if one is going purely on the results of the last 4 years then I can absolutely understand the lack of hope/optimism/faith/etc.

  12. #92
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    It's because Colangelo has yet to give us a reason to hope.
    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The hope is where I disagree. There is a young roster than has by no means reached their full potential. TR and JV are high lottery picks - the holy grail of hope in basketball. There is considerable financial flexibility. Dwane Casey is in the upper third of coaches in the league, in my opinion. Last season was an incredible showing in terms of the now cliche "culture change." I see hope all around the Raptors.
    Sorry Matt, I should have clarified.. by "us" I meant those of us who are down on the Raptors and don't feel we need to justify our case by providing what should have been done instead. I could be wrong but think "we" are all in agreement. I don't think anyone is against what is happening this particular season.. it's the collective work over the past 6+ seasons that is the main cause for concern.

    Nilanka: Do you want to watch the Raptors against Washington pre-season? Oct 17 7pm. I was thinking about just giving those away.

  13. #93
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Nilanka: Do you want to watch the Raptors against Washington pre-season? Oct 17 7pm. I was thinking about just giving those away.
    Thanks for the offer dude. But I live in the west end, and making it downtown by 7pm is kind of hectic on weeknights.

    But if you're looking to sell any "less desirable" weekend games during the season, feel free to PM me.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  14. #94
    Raptors Republic Starter theycallmeZZ's Avatar
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    Someone's giving away tickets?

    TORONTOOOOOO RAPTORSSSSSS

  15. #95
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Sorry Matt, I should have clarified.. by "us" I meant those of us who are down on the Raptors and don't feel we need to justify our case by providing what should have been done instead. I could be wrong but think "we" are all in agreement. I don't think anyone is against what is happening this particular season.. it's the collective work over the past 6+ seasons that is the main cause for concern.
    I suppose what I was asking you came out wrong... you obviously aren't happy with the Raptors current state of affairs and from what I read (and some reading between the lines), it seemed like you were in the minority, being opposed to the moves made by BC this offseason.

    All I was really trying to figure out is what exactly would make you happy? I don't mean the results, as we'd obviously all like a championship caliber team, or at least a team that continuously improves (ie: fighting for playoffs, making playoffs, fighting to make 2nd round, etc...) and does so is a sustainable fashion.

    The majority of people on here admit/know/realize/accept that there have been some positives and negatives when it comes to BC's decision-making over the years, but most people have been happy with the change of direction in the post-Bosh era - ie: personnel moves, removing bad salaries, hiring Casey, etc... and see all these moves as a positive step in the right direction.

    So, aside from just having years worth of bad taste in your mouth for BC and management/ownership, I'm just struggling to understand what has you feeling so down on the future of the franchise over the next few seasons. I'm asking you out of curiosity only, not asking you to 'prove' or 'justify' your opinion, or anything like that. Without understanding your complaints/rationale, it just sounds like "BC Bashing/Hate", since it's pretty obvious that the post-Bosh BC is taking a completely different strategy than the Bosh-era BC (at least it is to me and seemingly the majority of folks on here). Maybe it's just that I'm looking only at the post-Bosh era and the future, whereas you can't get past the entirety of BC's reign... in which case we're talking about two different things and will likely never see eye-to-eye.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Sep 21st, 2012 at 05:29 PM.

  16. #96
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    I've been up and down with the Raps. I was.....

    Up when Vince was here
    Down when he wanted to be traded
    Down at the result of the trade
    Up at the Babcock firing
    Up at the Colagelo hiring
    Down at the Bargnani coddling
    Up at the Sam Mitchell firing
    Down when I found out who was taking his place
    Up at the Triano "re-assigning"
    Up at the Casey hiring
    Down when the season was shortened
    Up when the season ended with more wins than 2010-2011 season
    Down at the Nash sweepstakes
    Up at the Lowry signing
    Down at the Fields signing
    UP at the prospect that Coach Casey has full training camp and a slightly better roster to work with

  17. #97
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I suppose what I was asking you came out wrong... you obviously aren't happy with the Raptors current state of affairs and from what I read (and some reading between the lines), it seemed like you were in the minority, being opposed to the moves made by BC this offseason.

    All I was really trying to figure out is what exactly would make you happy? I don't mean the results, as we'd obviously all like a championship caliber team, or at least a team that continuously improves (ie: fighting for playoffs, making playoffs, fighting to make 2nd round, etc...) and does so is a sustainable fashion.

    The majority of people on here admit/know/realize/accept that there have been some positives and negatives when it comes to BC's decision-making over the years, but most people have been happy with the change of direction in the post-Bosh era - ie: personnel moves, removing bad salaries, hiring Casey, etc... and see all these moves as a positive step in the right direction.

    So, aside from just having years worth of bad taste in your mouth for BC and management/ownership, I'm just struggling to understand what has you feeling so down on the future of the franchise over the next few seasons. I'm asking you out of curiosity only, not asking you to 'prove' or 'justify' your opinion, or anything like that. Without understanding your complaints/rationale, it just sounds like "BC Bashing/Hate", since it's pretty obvious that the post-Bosh BC is taking a completely different strategy than the Bosh-era BC (at least it is to me and seemingly the majority of folks on here). Maybe it's just that I'm looking only at the post-Bosh era and the future, whereas you can't get past the entirety of BC's reign... in which case we're talking about two different things and will likely never see eye-to-eye.
    And there in lies the problem. You can't 'understand' what some people believe because you won't see 'eye to eye' with them. But when thats the case how will someone explaining their thoughts (anymore than has been) going to possible impact the debate?

    An example from this thread of what I mean. You referred to how OKC built their team as 'luck' and stated that taking that route is therefore 'not constructive'. Immediately discrediting anyone from arguing organic growth of the team around a drafted superstar as an option to follow. So how could someone who thinks that is the model to follow now explain themselves to your satisfaction? You've already blocked their preference as not feasible (lucky), therefore it shouldn't be considered (not constructive). They are left with either being content with the changes or not argue against the changes, as that would be 'whining' or 'bashing' or 'hating'.

    What you did was frame the discussion to eliminate one opinion (and probably a rather common opinion). Anyone believing something outside that mold is either not expressing their opinion fairly or expressing it without merit. So if I believed trying to do what OKC did is the preferred method for this team to follow, and trying to build another way makes me pessimistic about the Raptors future - how do I possibly argue my opinion without being considered a basher/whiner/hater?

    Sure sounds like a 'lose-lose' debate for someone to have.

  18. #98
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    That is a solid post.

    My concern with the 'OKC model' is there are many things out of the control of management that must go right before management can have control of the situation. I think it really is a situation where all your ducks are already lined off in a row before great decisions are made.

  19. #99
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I think that's a pretty fair assessment of the Raps upper echelon for the past 5-10 years, or really since they came into existence. I think a lot of BC supporters basically agree with you, but argue that BC should get the chance to continue his work, since he's really been two completely different GMS; one that inherited a roster with Bosh as the de-facto franchise player, and another that's done a true rebuild in the wake of Bosh's departure.

    I personally thought Bosh was always overrated, in the franchise's attempt to put a new face on a young franchise that had been devestated by the departures of Mighty Mouse and Vinsanity (and his cousin), the team's only true franchise players up until that point. It wasn't only that they left, but how they left, which were such big blows to a franchise trying to grow roots for the NBA in Toronto and in Canada. Given the failure that was the Vancounver Grizzlies, there were some people in media that wrote stories about how the star players leaving Toronto was a bad omen that spelled doom for the Raptors franchise and the NBA in Canada. No wonder ownership was so desperate to unfairly heap such lofty expectations on the shoulders of a young Chris Bosh, who never should have been hailed as a franchise player. I think ownership has seen the error of its past ways, having finally given BC the green-light to do a true rebuild, as it should have been done from the moment Vinsanity left.

    I am extremely happy with the job BC has done since the Bosh era ended, with his rebuild and complete overhaul of the roster. He has improved the team, made it younger, added talent/potential, added character, avoided stop-gap solutions and done it all while maintaining short and long term financial flexibility. Is the job done? Nope. But I'm happy with the direction and think the team is poised for a strong future over the next 2-8 years. I also think the team is in better shape, both in terms of talent and flexibility (ie: cap space and trade chips), than a lot of other teams in the league.

    The Raptors need to show serious signs of improvement this season, at least fighting for a playoff spot, with several of the young guys stepping up and improving significantly. If that is accomplished, then I expect the Raptors to be a playoff caliber team for the next several years, which will be the expectation and measure of success that BC will be held accountable to, IMO.
    Which players would you say have to improve, and by how much? I think if you look at league history, this isn't a good thing to rely on. "I am hoping for today's middling benchwarmer to be tomorrow's all-star" isn't going to happen. It sometimes happens in very technical sports like baseball or golf, but basketball is very much about athleticism and natural talent cannot be suppressed for very long. If the ball players you have aren't getting it done, they should be replaced, and once you have great players, the thing to do is add more.

    If you take a look at the movers and shakers in the league, they have a lot of players in ESPN's top 30. So, for example, OKC has 3 in the top 26, Miami 3 in the top 20, including the league's best player by a mile, Boston 3 in the top 30, San Antonio 3 in the top 27, the Lakers have 4 in the top 20, including the #2 player in the league. The Raptors have Lowry at 51 and Bargs at 58. Calderon barely hangs onto top 100 status. Obviously JV and Ross are unknowns. If you're talking about them, fine. If you're talking about Davis/Fields/Derozan, forget it. That's who they are.

  20. #100
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    I'm down on the Raptors because I am hearing rumours about JV hurting his ankle and I have learned with the Raptors to expect the worst possible outcome of any rumour.

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