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Thread: Ladies and gentlemen, meet Kyle "Alpha dog" Lowry

  1. #21
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    I disagree that an alpha dog has to be taking the last shot, or creating the last shot. You can have a star player that is the clear cut leader of the team (KG for example) who I would say is the alpha dog of his team, yet didn't always have the ball in his hands at the end of games. Sure, you could put the ball in his hands because he's "the alpha dog", but I would rather have the ball in Rondo's hands because he is one of the best in the league at creating high percentage shots
    To elaborate your point, Boston's alpha dog is KG. Yet the ball isn't in his hands, but in Rondo's. BUT, also, Rondo is using his ability to find the shot for Allen (Heat), for Pierce, and now for Terry.

    I agree with your perspective.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    To elaborate your point, Boston's alpha dog is KG. Yet the ball isn't in his hands, but in Rondo's. BUT, also, Rondo is using his ability to find the shot for Allen (Heat), for Pierce, and now for Terry.

    I agree with your perspective.
    yeah exactly

  3. #23
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    Like in detroit Rasheed was their alpha dog, but Billups and Hamilton were their closers

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Great clips.
    To be clear, Im not suggesting the guy cant hit big shots. But, lots of guys can hit big shots. Alpha dogs, on the other hand, are the guys that game in and game out have their teamates rely on them to make big plays (obviously drive and dish just as good as hitting the shot) .. one way or the other, the ball is in their hands down the stretch and the rest of the team leans on them to do the right thing. Every game. Once in every 5 or 10 games doesnt cut it. Maybe this will be Lowry (i sure as hell hope so) .. but Im not yet convinced.
    I think Lowry is that guy.

    All the clips show where he made the shots. I am sure there are numerous other games where they didn't fall but he is still willing to be that guy - win it or lose it. Plus that was just a 5-10 minute look through YouTube.

    If the Raps sat down for a team testicular cancer examination I'm sure everyone would see Lowry's got the biggest balls of them all.... and likely some of the biggest in the league.

    We're in to opinions here so I realize neither of us can really prove anything. I am eagerly anticipating October 31.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
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    Quote Katman wrote: View Post
    His contract has a no trade clause?
    The front office is smart enough, to not trade for a player who'd be unhappy playing here. Besides, when we traded for Alonzo Mourning, I don't remember him having a no-trade clause..
    -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
    -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    To elaborate your point, Boston's alpha dog is KG. Yet the ball isn't in his hands, but in Rondo's. BUT, also, Rondo is using his ability to find the shot for Allen (Heat), for Pierce, and now for Terry.

    I agree with your perspective.
    Maybe we are just arguing words .. but to me, by throwing out KG, Rasheed and others, you guys are making the point Im trying to make. Those guys are great leaders. But to me, they are absolutely not alpha dogs (sheed perhaps for a small time in Portland). Their team doesnt lean on them when the chips down. When their team needs a play, there are probably three guys in Boston (PP, Allen, Rondo in some order) who they go to ahead of KG. Thats not what I call an alpha dog. Emotional leader? Absolutely, but not an alpha dog.

    Maybe you guys call what I call an alpha dog a "closer" and call what i call a leader an alpha dog .. but one way or the other,.. Im saying Lowry might be one .. but Im not sure hes wired to be the other. I hope Im proved wrong ...

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Maybe we are just arguing words .. but to me, by throwing out KG, Rasheed and others, you guys are making the point Im trying to make. Those guys are great leaders. But to me, they are absolutely not alpha dogs (sheed perhaps for a small time in Portland). Their team doesnt lean on them when the chips down. When their team needs a play, there are probably three guys in Boston (PP, Allen, Rondo in some order) who they go to ahead of KG. Thats not what I call an alpha dog. Emotional leader? Absolutely, but not an alpha dog.

    Maybe you guys call what I call an alpha dog a "closer" and call what i call a leader an alpha dog .. but one way or the other,.. Im saying Lowry might be one .. but Im not sure hes wired to be the other. I hope Im proved wrong ...

    I respect your opinion, and it may be better than mine. And I definitely agree with your last paragraph. But when I think of the teams 'alpha dog' I think of a guy that is their all around leader and the guy that will knock the other team on their ass' if he has to. This kind of reminds me of when I used to play high school ball; I was always the guy my team relied on to take the last shots, but was not the teams leader, wasn't great defensively, and wasn't very vocal. So I wouldn't consider myself an alpha dog.
    But I guess the term could probably be stretched to just about anything, it all comes down to personal opinions

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Maybe we are just arguing words
    Agreed! It's kinda silly when ya think about it

  9. #29
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Maybe we are just arguing words .. but to me, by throwing out KG, Rasheed and others, you guys are making the point Im trying to make. Those guys are great leaders. But to me, they are absolutely not alpha dogs (sheed perhaps for a small time in Portland). Their team doesnt lean on them when the chips down. When their team needs a play, there are probably three guys in Boston (PP, Allen, Rondo in some order) who they go to ahead of KG. Thats not what I call an alpha dog. Emotional leader? Absolutely, but not an alpha dog.

    Maybe you guys call what I call an alpha dog a "closer" and call what i call a leader an alpha dog .. but one way or the other,.. Im saying Lowry might be one .. but Im not sure hes wired to be the other. I hope Im proved wrong ...
    Well than it turns into an opinion and a different perspective.

    What the consensus of us are saying "Alpha Dog" is the leader, the role model, the guy a team counts on whatever situation. Kyle Lowry fits into the closing department, after watching a good number of Houston games last season, there was no doubt in my mind Lowry wants everything to do with pressure, the last shot, being the hero, etc. I feel he is an Alpha Dog, so does the rest of the Raptors' organization.

    Alpha Dog in my opinion has 3 attributes. Leader, brave (in terms of performing in pressure), and toughness, mentally, and physically. To me, Lowry fits those attributes.

    To your point about "the team doesn't lean on them when the chips down." You are overly underestimating KG and his role in Boston. He may not be the number 1 option offensively, but Boston would not have the success now WITHOUT him, offensively, and sure as hell defensively. I think that falls under Alpha Dog as well. You need him to win games.

    Like I said, my opinion, and I respect your perception of alpha dog.
    Last edited by ReubenJRD; Sun Sep 30th, 2012 at 10:31 PM.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    I hate to be a stickler, but words have meaning. Just because it is my perception that "a glass of milk" means a black lumpy mineral that burns with a high temperature doesn't make it true. The fact that I hear a term, never look up the definition in a dictionary or in wikipedia or any other authoritative reference, and therefore cobble together something that I have deduced from the context I have heard it in. So...just to be clear:

    MacMillian Dictionary

    alpha male- noun- singular alpha male plural alpha males

    1. a man or male animal that behaves in a confident or threatening way

    Cambridge Dictionary

    alpha male -noun

    specialized the most successful and powerful male in any group

    a strong and successful man who likes to be in charge of others

    Encarta Dictionary

    al•pha male (plural al•pha males) noun

    1. dominant male animal: a male in a pack of wolves, or a similar pack or troop of animals, that other members submit to and follow and that takes priority in mating with females

    2. dominant man: a man who controls the activities of a group and to whom others defer ( informal )

    World English Dictionary

    Alpha male — n
    the dominant male animal or person in a group

    Urban Dictionary

    alpha-male

    1) the dominant member of a pack of wolves.
    2) any person with a dominating personality, causing the assertion of or struggle for leadership in almost any situation.

    Wordcraft

    alpha male – a male in a pack of wolves, etc., to whom other members submit (in humans: dominant man; a man who controls
    the activities of a group and to whom others defer)

    Urban Dictionary

    1.Alpha dog

    1. The leader or authority in a group, especially in a group of friends.

    2.Alpha dog

    1. The leader of a pack that rolls several dogs deep.

    2. No leash can hold him, and his tail wags for no one. [meaning, he's not easily amused]

    3. Alpha Dog's bark is in equal proportion to his bite.

    Wiktionary

    alpha dog -noun (plural alpha dogs)

    1. A dominant dog; a dog that is an alpha male or alpha female. Often used figuratively.

    Now you can take your pick from that bunch, but the suggestion is that the "alpha dog" is the one that says, "This is how things go around here." Not necessarily the one with the best shot in the last two seconds of a close game. I can see an "alpha dog" saying "Gimme the rock" for the last play, but it that guy has a 24% three point shooting average, coach is going to sit his ass down.
    Last edited by Puffer; Mon Oct 1st, 2012 at 07:36 AM.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I hate to be a stickler, but words have meaning. Just because it is my perception that "a glass of milk" means a black lumpy mineral that burns with a high temperature doesn't make it true. The fact that I hear a term, never look up the definition in a dictionary or in wikipedia or any other authoritative reference, and therefore cobble together something that I have deduced from the context I have heard it in. So...just to be clear:

    MacMillian Dictionary

    alpha male- noun- singular alpha male plural alpha males

    1. a man or male animal that behaves in a confident or threatening way

    Cambridge Dictionary

    alpha male -noun

    specialized the most successful and powerful male in any group

    a strong and successful man who likes to be in charge of others

    Encarta Dictionary

    al•pha male (plural al•pha males) noun

    1. dominant male animal: a male in a pack of wolves, or a similar pack or troop of animals, that other members submit to and follow and that takes priority in mating with females

    2. dominant man: a man who controls the activities of a group and to whom others defer ( informal )

    World English Dictionary

    Alpha male — n
    the dominant male animal or person in a group

    Urban Dictionary

    alpha-male

    1) the dominant member of a pack of wolves.
    2) any person with a dominating personality, causing the assertion of or struggle for leadership in almost any situation.

    Wordcraft

    alpha male – a male in a pack of wolves, etc., to whom other members submit (in humans: dominant man; a man who controls
    the activities of a group and to whom others defer)

    Urban Dictionary

    1.Alpha dog

    1. The leader or authority in a group, especially in a group of friends.

    2.Alpha dog

    1. The leader of a pack that rolls several dogs deep.

    2. No leash can hold him, and his tail wags for no one. [meaning, he's not easily amused]

    3. Alpha Dog's bark is in equal proportion to his bite.

    Wiktionary

    alpha dog -noun (plural alpha dogs)

    1. A dominant dog; a dog that is an alpha male or alpha female. Often used figuratively.

    Now you can take your pick from that bunch, but the suggestion is that the "alpha dog" is the one that says, "This is how things go around here." Not necessarily the one with the best shot in the last two seconds of a close game. I can see an "alpha dog" saying "Gimme the rock" for the last play, but it that guy has a 24% three point shooting average, coach is going to sit his ass down.
    Again .. this is semantics .. but I think you are proving my point. Im not saying that, say, JR Smith, is an alpha dog. Or Steve Kerr. Or Mo Pete. Or .. [the list goes on of guys who have the ability and balls to hit a last shot].

    I talking the guy who, the last 10 or so possessions in the game (every game), when everyone starts to tense up, carries the team. Might be through hitting big shots, might be through beating his man off the dribble, as others have mentioned might be through defensive stops.

    There are certain players who fit this bill. Who you just know that the ball is going through them. If you ask 100 people - 100 out of 100 would tell you the clutch play will run through them. Derrick Rose. Kobe. MJ. Undisputed alpha dogs.

    Even LBJ and KD have had difficulty establishing themselves as alpha dogs on their own teams (in part due to other great players - westbrook and wade .. in part due to LBJ's past shyness at the end of games).

    I put a lot of weight in this term. I think your definitions above support my claim. If I was to guess, there will be a bit of an identity crisis on this team down the stretch. Should the ball go to AB in the post? Lowry off the dribble? Maybe (gulp) DD? If Lowry is an alpha dog, as some think .. then I see him taking control of the situation and taking the bull by the horns to make sure the right thing happens. There shouldnt be any doubt whos hands the ball will go through with 8 on the shot clock and the team needing a key bucket. We will see .. but Im not convinced.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Again .. this is semantics ...
    Agree 100%. It is semantics. As I said, words have meanings. If we mix the meanings up, nobody knows what we are talking about.

    As to who's the alpha dog...most people agree that Casey is the closest thing this team has to one, but that's not what they mean of course. Which of the players is going to assume that role?

    It doesn't seem to be in Andre's nature.

    I think if Demar tried to assume that role his team mates would laugh.

    In basketball, because the guys don't have to actually fight it out amongst themselves to see who gets to sit beside the coach, skill is a big component. Clearly the AD has to be skilled enough that he has respect from everyone else. That pretty much means he needs to be one of the top 2-3 players in terms of skill set.

    Also needs to be someone that can push through pain, exhaustion, bad luck, and a big deficit to keep on playing and also be effective. That's really what people mean when they say someone "took over a game." They are talking about a player that was able to bring focus to what he was doing so that he made no mistakes, he shot the ball like he could in practice, he didn't become a black hole but made the right passes. One of the reasons Steve Kerr could make those game winning three pointers was that Jordan knew enough to draw and kick, but the team put the ball in his hands because he would do what it took to win (even if it meant passing...cough, cough Bayless).

    In addition, an AD doesn't get intimidated, and isn't afraid of a physical confrontation, if required. An alpha dog is confident of, if not winning, then making sure his opponent winds up in the dust beside him with a steady stream of bright, red blood coursing out of his carotid artery.

    Not immediately clear who on the Raptors fills that bill, but it might be Lowry.

    Just my opinion.

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