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Thread: Debate question. DeMar or Amir?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star tucas's Avatar
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    Default Debate question. DeMar or Amir?

    I know they play different positions so its hard to compare their games, but who do you see as the better all around player between the 2, DeMar or Amir? And who is needed more for the raptors success?

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Keeping it Real's Avatar
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    DeMar all day

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    I'm just gonna answer that by quoting what I wrote in another thread:
    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    DeMar's a low efficiency1 volume shooter2 with no 3 point range3 who never passes4, plays mediocre to bad defense5, and is a stunningly awful rebounder6 for his size and athleticism. But because his scoring totals look good and he throws down the occasional eye-popping dunk, his market value is probably significantly higher than his actual value.

    Footnotes:

    1. His TS% of 50.3% was 54th out of the 83 shooting guards who played at least 6 minutes per game last season.
    2. His usage rate of 22.5% was 10th out of that same group.
    3. He's a career 20.6% 3PT shooter, with his best season being last year's 26.1%
    4. 71st out of 83 shooting guards in assist rate.
    5. Career defensive rating of 112 (meaning a team full of defenders of his quality would allow 112 points per 100 possessions; the worst team in the league last year allowed 107.)
    6. 51st last season in rebound rate out of the 83 SGs who played at least 6 minutes per game.
    As for Amir, he's a very high-efficiency scorer (though at a low usage rate), and an exceptionally effective defender. Adjusted plus-minus has him as our best overall player over the last two years, if you like to go by numbers. Duane Casey has called him our most effective defender and our best pick and roll player (this was last year before Jonas arrived), if you don't like numbers and prefer to defer to the experts. The only people who don't get Amir's value are folks that don't watch a lot of Raptor basketball, and fans that can't see past per-game totals in the box score.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    I'm just gonna answer that by quoting what I wrote in another thread:


    As for Amir, he's a very high-efficiency scorer (though at a low usage rate), and an exceptionally effective defender. Adjusted plus-minus has him as our best overall player over the last two years, if you like to go by numbers. Duane Casey has called him our most effective defender and our best pick and roll player (this was last year before Jonas arrived), if you don't like numbers and prefer to defer to the experts. The only people who don't get Amir's value are folks that don't watch a lot of Raptor basketball, and fans that can't see past per-game totals in the box score.
    Demar can easily be more of the impact player when he's consistently attacking the basket, getting in the passing lanes, and rebounding. He's shown more of that this pre-season, and he still has a good amount of potential left.

    Amir is a 'what-you-see, is what-you-get' guy. Rebounding, defending, garbage buckets. Amir rarely does anything wrong, but he (as well as Demar), is fairly inconsistent.

    Whenever Amir is inconsistent or ineffective, it doesn't have a huge premium on the game if it were Demar be ineffective. Just my eye.

    One question I would rather ask is, if one had an open position to start, who would it be? I would answer with Demar, for he is the closest to a "star" player (Not implying at all Demar is a star) we have.

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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Demar can easily be more of the impact player when he's consistently attacking the basket, getting in the passing lanes, and rebounding. He's shown more of that this pre-season, and he still has a good amount of potential left.

    Amir is a 'what-you-see, is what-you-get' guy. Rebounding, defending, garbage buckets. Amir rarely does anything wrong, but he (as well as Demar), is fairly inconsistent.

    Whenever Amir is inconsistent or ineffective, it doesn't have a huge premium on the game if it were Demar be ineffective. Just my eye.
    First of all, basketball has three parts: offense, defense, and rebounding. Rebounding and defending are two thirds of the game of basketball, and Amir's very good at them.

    Second, Amir's not inconsistent on D, he's consistently excellent.

    Third, as I said above, Amir's a really good pick and roll player. It may not look as pretty to the casual fan as a spinning fadeaway jumper, but it's effective, and that's what matters. The Raptors' offense has been better with him on the court than it has with either Bargnani or DeRozan on the court for the past three years. (Via 82games.com.)

    And fourth, I agree that DeRozan's been good for three out of the four preseason games we've played so far this year. But based on how awful he's been the entire rest of his career (see footnotes above), I'm gonna need a lot bigger sample size than that before I believe he's any different from the DeMar we've seen for the first three seasons.

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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Whenever Amir is inconsistent or ineffective, it doesn't have a huge premium on the game if it were Demar be ineffective. Just my eye.
    This is something I wanted to address separately. Our eyes lie to us all the time, and our brains are prone to massive distortions of memory. There are 10 players in more-or-less constant motion on the basketball court at all times; at best one can pay close attention to two or three of them at a time. Amir's a guy who does all the things you don't notice, and does them amazingly well. DeMar's a guy whose good plays you remember and whose bad plays you forget.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    This is something I wanted to address separately. Our eyes lie to us all the time, and our brains are prone to massive distortions of memory. There are 10 players in more-or-less constant motion on the basketball court at all times; at best one can pay close attention to two or three of them at a time. Amir's a guy who does all the things you don't notice, and does them amazingly well. DeMar's a guy whose good plays you remember and whose bad plays you forget.
    And that's WHEN they ARE being effective in the game. Amir does the little things that don't show up on the stat sheet, but it's fairly noticeable when you are watching. Defending the ball, the pick and roll, etc. I'm talking about it's less noticeable to see a guy like Amir being ineffective compared to Demar being ineffective.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    First of all, basketball has three parts: offense, defense, and rebounding. Rebounding and defending are two thirds of the game of basketball, and Amir's very good at them.

    Second, Amir's not inconsistent on D, he's consistently excellent.

    Third, as I said above, Amir's a really good pick and roll player. It may not look as pretty to the casual fan as a spinning fadeaway jumper, but it's effective, and that's what matters. The Raptors' offense has been better with him on the court than it has with either Bargnani or DeRozan on the court for the past three years. (Via 82games.com.)

    And fourth, I agree that DeRozan's been good for three out of the four preseason games we've played so far this year. But based on how awful he's been the entire rest of his career (see footnotes above), I'm gonna need a lot bigger sample size than that before I believe he's any different from the DeMar we've seen for the first three seasons.
    I don't think Toronto could win with Amir more than with Andrea and Demar. I seriously doubt that, and that's why stats don't tell the whole story. Amir plays harder, great effort, and I'm not knocking Amir, for he is a serious contributor to the team, but, him being offensively better statistically wise, doesn't mean the team will get results with him over Andrea, or Demar.

    Secondly, Amir has been inconsistent, not defensively, but near everything else. He had the nagging injuries, offensively he was invisible, the effort was high and low, etc. I didn't see the Amir from the first two seasons in Toronto, compared to last season.

    Third, you're speaking as if you were using my eyes. I know what I see, and I know what Amir brings to the table, I can see what he does. I'm speaking to the ineffectiveness comparison, and how NOTICEABLE it would be compared to Demar and Amir. Amir would be far less noticeable if he were ineffective compared to if Demar was ineffective. I feel Demar has more of an impact on the game it self, that's why I felt Demar would be more noticeable. If Demar isn't scoring, if he isn't getting to the rim, if he isn't playing D, if he isn't rebounding, etc. It would have more of an impact on the game (negatively) for he is a starter, our number 1 option on the wing, and our best slasher/athlete.

    Fourth, Demar has NOT been awful his entire career, and that's from WATCHING what he does. A very solid rookie campaign, who did the little things that Amir would do, but on the wing. Running the floor, passing lanes defensively, basket cuts. His sophomore season was great, the year he made the jump. Going from 9 points per game, to 17 points per game, not to mention he was efficient, in both years. Rookie: 50%. Sophomore: 47% (taking more shots per game).
    I felt the only year where he was disappointing, was last season. Everything (PPG, RPG, SPG), dropped. He did improve the 3 point percentages from 10% to 26%, but, the lockout season really hurt him, especially with better/new habits to adapt and learn to.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    I think the better phrasing of the OP should have been around "who is the more valuable to the Raptors".

    I dont mean to be a fence sitter but imo they are of equal value. They contribute in different ways as has been described above without depicting major separation in that overall individual value.

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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    I think the better phrasing of the OP should have been around "who is the more valuable to the Raptors".

    I dont mean to be a fence sitter but imo they are of equal value. They contribute in different ways as has been described above without depicting major separation in that overall individual value.
    Interesting. I kind of agree with this, but if both do different things, and are of equal value, that you have to go with, who can get better at it?

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    Inefficient wings are a dime a dozen.

    Bigs who hustle, find ways to score without plays drawn up, rebound, and defend are rare.

    Gotta go with Amir for the simple fact of supply versus demand.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Inefficient wings are a dime a dozen.

    Bigs who hustle, find ways to score without plays drawn up, rebound, and defend are rare.

    Gotta go with Amir for the simple fact of supply versus demand.

    Exactly

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    First of all, basketball has three parts: offense, defense, and rebounding. Rebounding and defending are two thirds of the game of basketball, and Amir's very good at them.

    Second, Amir's not inconsistent on D, he's consistently excellent.

    Third, as I said above, Amir's a really good pick and roll player. It may not look as pretty to the casual fan as a spinning fadeaway jumper, but it's effective, and that's what matters. The Raptors' offense has been better with him on the court than it has with either Bargnani or DeRozan on the court for the past three years. (Via 82games.com.)
    Ok...First....Amir is very good at those 2 parts, but only in certain aspects of each. He's still a bit weak under the boards and gets physically overmatched.

    Second...addressing D. Amir has looked good on D, but he's far from consistently excellent. He has lapses just like anyone. Who knows for this year, but he still might pick up more weak fouls than anyone else on our team. I don't know how many times I've screamed "Stop reaching Amir!" at games.

    Third...Amir is a good roller. NOt a really good pick and roll player. HE has improved his jump shot, to make him better if he needs to pop. He dives well and finishes as long as he gets teh ball at the basket. BUT, that's about all he can do on offense. I don't know if I ever get as scared watching teh Raps as when Amir tries to dribble-drive or back down his man...Sometimes it works, every other time it's a total fail, usually of the turnover variety. So lets not overvalue that he's a good roller he's been the beneficiary of fairly good PG play...lets not forget how much less he got those opportunities with Bayless out there (it was always Jose with the sweet pass to him) the last couple of years. So if you're going to give Amir credit, don't overdo it. He's also still pretty bad if the pass comes too soon and he can't go straight up.

    I'd take Demar. The choice is between a borderline starting wing who can easily grown into a legit starter, or a 3rd/4th big who is a good rotation player. Really, I'd expect Demar's D to keep improving, though he may never be a stopper (not like Amir is). And if he becomes better at one or two more aspects of the game (shooting, rebounding, passing, playing the post, the p'n'r), then he's definitely starting material. Amir is limited, and often gets credited with doing "all the little things you don't see", when really he does some things you do see and you overvalue them. He jumps for one loose ball and everyone says "he showed more hustle than anyone on the team", without paying attention to how much harder other guys might be moving on D to create that loose ball. I love Amir, but he's nothing special. He's a JYD type player, and JYD was pretty dumb on the floor a lot of nights. I'd give up Amir in a heartbeat for a more consistent, well-rounded backup like Taj Gibson, or Udonis Haslem, or Varejao, or Kenneth Faried, or......these guys are all upgrades who fill pretty much the same role. Heck, if Ed Davis gets his post game together enough, Amir will lose most of his minutes at PF and just be the backup C. To get a clear upgrade on Demar, you pretty much have to go all-star or borderline all-star. I wouldn't take guys like Kevin Martin, or Courtney Lee, or Wesley Matthews, or Rodney Stuckey, or Nick Young...You'd have to get at least a guy like Rudy Gay (and even then with his price tag, he'd better be having a monster season), or Luol Deng...basically either upgrading raw talent, or getting a player with a better all-around game, or both.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Ok...First....Amir is very good at those 2 parts, but only in certain aspects of each. He's still a bit weak under the boards and gets physically overmatched.

    Second...addressing D. Amir has looked good on D, but he's far from consistently excellent. He has lapses just like anyone. Who knows for this year, but he still might pick up more weak fouls than anyone else on our team. I don't know how many times I've screamed "Stop reaching Amir!" at games.

    Third...Amir is a good roller. NOt a really good pick and roll player. HE has improved his jump shot, to make him better if he needs to pop. He dives well and finishes as long as he gets teh ball at the basket. BUT, that's about all he can do on offense. I don't know if I ever get as scared watching teh Raps as when Amir tries to dribble-drive or back down his man...Sometimes it works, every other time it's a total fail, usually of the turnover variety. So lets not overvalue that he's a good roller he's been the beneficiary of fairly good PG play...lets not forget how much less he got those opportunities with Bayless out there (it was always Jose with the sweet pass to him) the last couple of years. So if you're going to give Amir credit, don't overdo it. He's also still pretty bad if the pass comes too soon and he can't go straight up.

    I'd take Demar. The choice is between a borderline starting wing who can easily grown into a legit starter, or a 3rd/4th big who is a good rotation player. Really, I'd expect Demar's D to keep improving, though he may never be a stopper (not like Amir is). And if he becomes better at one or two more aspects of the game (shooting, rebounding, passing, playing the post, the p'n'r), then he's definitely starting material. Amir is limited, and often gets credited with doing "all the little things you don't see", when really he does some things you do see and you overvalue them. He jumps for one loose ball and everyone says "he showed more hustle than anyone on the team", without paying attention to how much harder other guys might be moving on D to create that loose ball. I love Amir, but he's nothing special. He's a JYD type player, and JYD was pretty dumb on the floor a lot of nights. I'd give up Amir in a heartbeat for a more consistent, well-rounded backup like Taj Gibson, or Udonis Haslem, or Varejao, or Kenneth Faried, or......these guys are all upgrades who fill pretty much the same role. Heck, if Ed Davis gets his post game together enough, Amir will lose most of his minutes at PF and just be the backup C. To get a clear upgrade on Demar, you pretty much have to go all-star or borderline all-star. I wouldn't take guys like Kevin Martin, or Courtney Lee, or Wesley Matthews, or Rodney Stuckey, or Nick Young...You'd have to get at least a guy like Rudy Gay (and even then with his price tag, he'd better be having a monster season), or Luol Deng...basically either upgrading raw talent, or getting a player with a better all-around game, or both.
    Demar is worse than all those guys you mentioned except maybe Nick Young. The guy is one dimensional and not very good at that either. Amir is decent at all aspects in the game and is overall a better player.

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    no bad intentions here.. but questions like this just generate divisions & hate among the fanbase & team indirectly. no reason to name names specially on the same/our team. you can just ask a general question like who would u take a blue collar hustle role player vs an unproven impact/star potential player. Unless you are comparing 2 players who plays the same position have almost the same skillset.
    Last edited by xunknownx; Sat Oct 20th, 2012 at 04:22 PM.

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    A different way to phrase it might be to say "Who do you think is better than average at their respective position, Amir or Demar?"

    Then go look at points, turnovers, rebounds and assist averages, and compare the two players. Then look at offensive and defensive efficiency stats, compared to averages.

    Quite frankly, I think Amir would come out on top if I had the energy to look. Especially considering that at this point, you must compare DeMar to starters, and Amir to bigs off the bench.

    I just checked Hollingers numbers. DeMar ranks 43rd as a shooting guard, and Amir 42 as a power forward. If you assume there are 30 starters in the league ahead of Amir, he is 12th best of the bench PF, whereas Demar has 12 bench SG's ahead of him.

    Those numbers are based on the 2011-2012 seson.

    Go back a year further, 'cause Demar had a bad year, and Amir is ranked 24th among PF's and Demar is ranked 23rd. So, was Amir a starter in 2010-2011? As I recall, he was. So 2010 - 2011 is a wash.

    Make of it what you will. I would say DeMar has a lot of ground to cover and it is also obvious how much his game depends on having someone like AB to spread the floor. Given that both AB and JV will be on the floor at the same time most of this year, DeMar should be able to find all kinds of open space to operate once he and JV figure out how to keep out of each others way.

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    Quote xunknownx wrote: View Post
    no bad intentions here.. but questions like this just generate divisions & hate among the fanbase & team indirectly. no reason to name names specially on the same/our team. you can just ask a general question like who would u take a blue collar hustle role player vs an unproven impact/star potential player. Unless you are comparing 2 players who plays the same position have almost the same skillset.
    I sort of agree....and I'm not trying to foster hate. In fact, my answer was mostly to point out exactly what you are saying the question is in its essence. And really, I wouldn't trade either one. I love Amir and don't strictly think he's "expendable", but that he's not particularly special(solid rotation big, ideally backup)...Amir's deal is reasonable for what he brings...you'd either have to draft someone like him straight out, or overpay more for them. To this day it might be the most intelligent deal BC has done.
    Demar is on a rookie deal....I keep hearing all this chatter about throwing him this way and that as packages....the only ones that seem to make sense talent-wise are Gay, Deng and Granger....all make much more money...only Gay is truly attractive as a scoring upgrade and better all-around player...but even then, you'd probably have to give up Demar, Ed/Amir, Jose, one or two 1st rounders...and who knows what else. That's a steep price if Demar's still got room to grow. There are plenty of inefficient wings out there...but do you want to be on the books for 10-15 million even for guys like Turkoglu or Kevin Martin? We're getting good value for Demar, and again, if he grows a bit I think you can lock down a starter at a relatively low cost. He has the potential to have a much higher impact on games than Amir ever will.

    I also think the impact of "hustle" players if overrated by a lot of Raps fans because we've had shitty teams. We sit there thinking "man, I wish all our guys played that hard"....but no one is really going to follow the example of a role player. For a hustle player to really make a difference, there's gotta be more than one, and i'd say at least 2 of the best 3 or 4 players on the team have to play like that. That's why I love that we drafted JV and traded for Lowry...I think these guys' personalities are really going to mesh well on the court, and that hopefully the team takes on their character.

    Also, the original question seemed to address which is the best "all-around" player. What the heck? All-around? Amir is not a good all-around player. He's not KG, he's JYD. He is very limited and plays to his strengths on both ends of the floor. This does not make him a good all-around player, it makes him an efficient/effective player. That just bugged me a bit. Maybe it should drop that part and just focus on the 2nd, "who matters more for team success?". In which case I'd still stick with Demar. Amir may impact games more consistently at this point by a bit, but when Demar does, it has a much larger effect.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Quote xunknownx wrote: View Post
    no bad intentions here.. but questions like this just generate divisions & hate among the fanbase & team indirectly. no reason to name names specially on the same/our team. you can just ask a general question like who would u take a blue collar hustle role player vs an unproven impact/star potential player. Unless you are comparing 2 players who plays the same position have almost the same skillset.
    I'll agree to this. The Bargs vs Bosh days had some folks furious on both sides around here, absolutely hating the other player. I myself fell into that trap a bit too, even though I never actually hate any of our players. Just want all of them to do great.

    FTR, i like Amir's game better, but I think if DeMar pans out he's a lot more crucial to our success. Don't see that happening.

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    Amir is more valuable to the team than Demar on my humble opinion.

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    This isnt even close .. Im frankly shocked at how many people are making the case for Amir with a straight face. Amir is a nice role player .. who isnt really asked to do much, other than hustle, rebound, get the odd garbage points. He is pretty much always (maybe not when we had Reggie Evans) the 5th option on offense.
    In that context .. he is a faiirly efficient offensive player. In the context where he would be asked to actually contribute on offense and make his own shot, he would be very inefficient (much worse than Demar).
    On D - hes ok in the team concept, but not a great one on one defender (maybe a little better than Demar, but not much.
    Bottom line, hes hit his celing, which is a hustle guy, 6-8th in the rotation on an ok team. (Which btw is totally fine, teams need guys like that)
    However, Demar - can create his own shot. As shown this year, he can get to the hoop and get fouled. All of this, when he is being asked to be the man, the 1st or 2nd option on offense. I agree, hes a volume shooter, doesnt shoot a good percentage and needs to work on his J. So yes, compared to other great shooting guards (ie Wade, Kobe etc), obviously hes way way behind. But when compared to a career role guy like Amir .. its not even close

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