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Thread: Debate question. DeMar or Amir?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Inefficient wings are a dime a dozen.

    Bigs who hustle, find ways to score without plays drawn up, rebound, and defend are rare.

    Gotta go with Amir for the simple fact of supply versus demand.
    Not so sure about that. Think of our team alone over the last few years (let alone across the rest of the league) .. plenty of hustle guys who cant create their own shot (and thus score primarily on garbage points), but are solid rebounders / defenders.. Ed, Reggie, Hump, JYD, Keon Clark, Antonio, Oak .. just to name a few off the top of my head. There are dozens of guys across the league who fit Amir's profile (and a paid less!) .. so Im not buying the supply / demand argument here (in addition to the other reasons why I would take DD over Amir).

  2. #22
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    Amir!

    If I had to start a team and had to choose between one of them I'd take Amir. He plays D,has heart and hussles all game long. Things that can't be taught. Will he win you games on his own... No. But neither will DD. He's proven that. Team game. Team players.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Not so sure about that. Think of our team alone over the last few years (let alone across the rest of the league) .. plenty of hustle guys who cant create their own shot (and thus score primarily on garbage points), but are solid rebounders / defenders.. Ed, Reggie, Hump, JYD, Keon Clark, Antonio, Oak .. just to name a few off the top of my head. There are dozens of guys across the league who fit Amir's profile (and a paid less!) .. so Im not buying the supply / demand argument here (in addition to the other reasons why I would take DD over Amir).
    IF we are talking about ceiling and potential, then there is no doubt DD has more upside.

    But I thought we were talking about the here and now. I still say Amir. Amir is good at what he is asked to do. DeMar in 3 years has not been doing what he has been asked to do and has been becoming worse at it. Maybe this year he breaks out but I have little faith in that happening. Also he is one dimensional - and inefficient at that.

    I once went through the contracts of guys in the league getting paid in the ball park of Amir and it was frightening. There are definitely guys in the league who fit Amir's profile (and are paid less) but I would venture to guess they are on rookie deals. Go to HoopsWorld.com and look through the team salaries and eliminate the rookie contracts. It is incredible to see who is paid what for what they produce.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    The way for a team to get better is to improve at each position, if possible.

    DD has the role of starting SG. With DeMar ranked 42nd or 43rd in the league as a shooting guard, it is much easier to improve there. Getting someone who is ranked 32nd is an improvement.

    AJ has the role of first big off the bench. If he is 42nd or 43rd best in the league, then there are only 12 bench bigs who are better than him. What else is there to say?

    If the Raptors players, in each role, were 12th to 15th best in their role, the team would be awesome. Right now, only Lowry (10th), Jose (24th, therefore highly ranked for a bench pg), Linas Kleiza (34th, therefore good for a bench SF) Amir (42nd, good for a bench PF) fit that profile.

    You get rid of Amir only if you have a better fit at bench PF or can dramatically improve one of the spots you are lagging at.
    He is 12th best at what he is asked to do, play big off the bench. Demar is 48th best at what he is asked to do.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    The way for a team to get better is to improve at each position, if possible.

    DD has the role of starting SG. With DeMar ranked 42nd or 43rd in the league as a shooting guard, it is much easier to improve there. Getting someone who is ranked 32nd is an improvement.

    AJ has the role of first big off the bench. If he is 42nd or 43rd best in the league, then there are only 12 bench bigs who are better than him. What else is there to say?

    If the Raptors players, in each role, were 12th to 15th best in their role, the team would be awesome. Right now, only Lowry (10th), Jose (24th, therefore highly ranked for a bench pg), Linas Kleiza (34th, therefore good for a bench SF) Amir (42nd, good for a bench PF) fit that profile.

    You get rid of Amir only if you have a better fit at bench PF or can dramatically improve one of the spots you are lagging at.
    He is 12th best at what he is asked to do, play big off the bench. Demar is 48th best at what he is asked to do.
    I have to say .. this is pretty horrible logic. According to you, bring Demar in off the bench, and start Amir and all of a sudden Demar is great and Amir sucks? Because, according to you, Demar demar would now be the 12 best bench SG, yet Amir would now suck, because there are 40 or so better starting PFs?
    Combine the fact that Demar makes less money .. now im thoroughly confused.

    If you want to use these rankings (not sure what ranking you are using), thats fine. But you cant adjust for a starter vs a bench player ... if guys are good enough, they will start, if they arent, they wont. As I said, it would be fair game to adjust for salary and say that the lower paid player with the same ranking at their position is more valuable to their team .. but again, that would be DD.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Last sentence in the original post was "And who is needed more for the raptors success?"

    My whole argument is that you need players who are good in their role for success. Amir is only expected to come off the bench. In that role, he is a good choice. DeMar is expected to be a starting SG. In that role, last year, he was worse than 42 other SGs. For the Raptors to succeed, you don't need a guy playing SG who has 12 bench warmers showing him up.

    I know it's simple logic, and you can make arguments about how DeMar was expected to shoulder more off the scoring load last year etc. etc. but the point is that he is not good at doing what he is asked to do. Change his role or move him...or give him another chance, but demand a significant improvement this year.

    In another thread I have also said that I expect having a healthy AB and JV on the floor at the same time (along with Lowry) and DeMar will have a much easier time of it. But he is still not very good at what he is asked to do.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Last sentence in the original post was "And who is needed more for the raptors success?"

    My whole argument is that you need players who are good in their role for success. Amir is only expected to come off the bench. In that role, he is a good choice. DeMar is expected to be a starting SG. In that role, last year, he was worse than 42 other SGs. For the Raptors to succeed, you don't need a guy playing SG who has 12 bench warmers showing him up.

    I know it's simple logic, and you can make arguments about how DeMar was expected to shoulder more off the scoring load last year etc. etc. but the point is that he is not good at doing what he is asked to do. Change his role or move him...or give him another chance, but demand a significant improvement this year.

    In another thread I have also said that I expect having a healthy AB and JV on the floor at the same time (along with Lowry) and DeMar will have a much easier time of it. But he is still not very good at what he is asked to do.
    Ok .. I get the argument you are trying .. but its totally flawed if you just stick guys in as "bench players" or "starters". You need to think of them by position, and then the argument is ok. Amir gets the benefit of the doubt because he happens to be the third shittiest PF we have. But, if AB or JV get hurt, then all of a sudden his value has gone down? It just doesnt make sense.

    By your logic, Jose is our best asset (because, as a backup PG, he is the best we have, relative to his peers at backup PG). In reality, he is one of our worst assets, because he gets paid $10 mm+ to be a backup PG. Amir would be close to next worst, because he gets paid $6 mm + to be a backup PF.

    I get (and agree with) the overriding point that you need a bunch of players who are good at their collective roles in order to have a successful team - but your way of evaluating if way off.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    yeah im going with what matt said
    @jerboat

  9. #29
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    IF we are talking about ceiling and potential, then there is no doubt DD has more upside.

    But I thought we were talking about the here and now. I still say Amir. Amir is good at what he is asked to do. DeMar in 3 years has not been doing what he has been asked to do and has been becoming worse at it. Maybe this year he breaks out but I have little faith in that happening. Also he is one dimensional - and inefficient at that.
    Amir does a lot of things well enough. He is a low-usage (and relatively low minutes) player because I suspect his efficiency on both sides of the court would decline more than just marginally if he was playing 30+ minutes a game.

    I am very happy we have someone as good as Amir as a third big.

    DeMar is a scorer first, second, and third. DeMar needs to add another skill to his game sooner rather than later if he wants to remain a starter. This is a critical year for DeMar and may be his last year as a Raptor starter. I hope they don't extend him before October 31st because right now, I would be very hesitant to project him as anything other than a scorer off the bench.

    I am not a big fan of DeMar as a player but I think his parents and grandmother did a fantastic job raising him. I hope he develops another skill because he is a very good young man.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Here's reason enough why Amir needs to go. The safety of mankind rests on this decision.

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/2...ronto_raptors/
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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