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Thread: Hedo vs. Vince: a stat argument in Orlando

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    Default Hedo vs. Vince: a stat argument in Orlando

    Came across an interesting piece which included the following... regarding the value of each to the Magic and their play this season. Interesting take on Hedo...the heart goes fonder when they leave! (not in Wince's case for myself though).

    I thought it appropriate to place it here seeing as how Hedo is with the Raptors now. Moderator may move it if needed.

    2. The Trigger-Happy Vince Carter
    In 2008-09 in New Jersey, playing with Devin Harris, Brook Lopez and a cast of role players, Carter used 27.0 percent of the Nets' possessions. Having traded in those teammates for three players who were All-Stars a year ago, the seemingly safe assumption was Carter would step into a smaller role. Instead, he's actually using possessions at a higher rate--27.5 percent. It's not as if Carter is shooting so well the Magic feels compelled to go to him time and again. His 49.8 True Shooting Percentage is the worst of his career and also the lowest among Orlando regulars.

    Oddly, what is happening with Carter seems to be along the lines of what I feared with the other NBA Finalist. While Ron Artest has sacrificed scoring opportunities to fit in with the L.A. Lakers, Carter is forcing things. He's playing a much bigger role than predecessor Hedo Turkoglu, who used 23.1 percent of the Magic's possessions while on the floor, and Rashard Lewis has complained recently about his lost shot attempts. Other more efficient options, most notably Howard, are also suffering because of Carter's shoot-first mentality.

    Take a look at the breakdown of usage and efficiency for Orlando's key players.

    Player Usg SORtg
    ------------------------
    Carter .275 90.6
    Anderson .239 103.4
    Howard .229 100.5
    Nelson .222 89.4
    Lewis .203 100.9
    Barnes .180 93.3
    Pietrus .176 98.5
    Redick .173 108.7
    Williams .150 94.9
    Gortat .133 90.9
    That last number is what I call "Simple" Offensive Rating--points scored divided by possessions used. Basically, it's like True Shooting Percentage with turnovers. By this measure, Carter comes out slightly better than Nelson, but it's still clear that something is fundamentally wrong with how Orlando is distributing its possessions. Both Carter and Nelson are getting way too many looks.

    Advocating more shots and touches for Howard and Lewis is not exactly like expecting a role player to remain equally efficient when having to create for himself. These players are All-Stars, and both had higher usage rates a year ago. Howard used 26.2 percent of Orlando's possessions in 2008-09, while Lewis was at 22.1 percent. They've proven they can handle a bigger load.

    If Carter remains steadfastly unwilling to adjust, at some point Van Gundy may have to consider a lineup change. Carter's high usage would fit in better with the reserves, among whom only the sensational Ryan Anderson uses possessions at an above-average rate. Meanwhile, either J.J. Redick or a bigger wing duo of Matt Barnes and Mickael Pietrus would play complementary roles with the starters. Getting Carter to buy in to such a move might be impossible, but pulling it off could be critical to the Magic's success.

    3. I Underrated Hedo Turkoglu
    When Orlando let Turkoglu walk as a free agent, replacing him with Carter, I thought it was the right move. Now I'm not so sure, and not just because of the preceding paragraphs. Turkoglu has never rated particularly well by my numbers or most others. Both his per-minute win percentage and PER evaluated him as essentially an average player this season. But the success the Toronto offense has enjoyed since adding Turkoglu, ranking fourth in the league, has made me rethink his value.

    In paying tribute to Steve Nash earlier this season, I referenced hoopnumbers.com's breakdown of adjusted plus-minus into the Four Factors at both ends of the floor. Of the top 13 players in adjusted impact on their team's effective field-goal percentage, 11 were All-Stars last year. The 12th is Deron Williams, and I think it's safe to say he belongs in the All-Star category despite the fact that a logjam of point guards in the West has kept him from actually making the team. The last player? Turkoglu, who ranked seventh by increasing his team's eFG% by 1.34 percent while on the floor over the last three seasons when accounting for the quality of his teammates.

    What I'm starting to suspect is there is something about how Turkoglu helps an offense that is not picked up by his individual stats. Whether it is because of his versatility, or his ability to run the pick-and-roll, he makes his teammates more efficient without generating a ton of assists or scoring all that efficiently (or that often) himself.

    Now, that still doesn't mean letting Turkoglu go was a terrible move. The five-year contract he got from the Toronto Raptors will take him through age 35 and could get ugly on the back end. Also, Carter ranks 16th on the same list of adjusted eFG%, so Orlando should be deriving a similar benefit from his presence. Still, there is some statistical evidence to explain why the Magic would miss Turkoglu.
    http://basketballprospectus.com/arti...?articleid=879

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    Super Moderator .40 Cal Flakes's Avatar
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    Interesting article, nice find Bendit.

    Not to defend Wince, but I remember before the season started, SVG was letting it be known that he wanted WC to be aggressive, keep playing his style of ball (jacking up shats all day!) and essentially be the Magic's main offensive weapon. I wonder if he is rethinking his strategy?

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    I don't understand Vince's reasoning. Like, this is his best chance to redeem his legacy..why not fit in rather than forcing things?

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    Quote .40 Cal Flakes wrote: View Post
    Interesting article, nice find Bendit.

    Not to defend Wince, but I remember before the season started, SVG was letting it be known that he wanted WC to be aggressive, keep playing his style of ball (jacking up shats all day!) and essentially be the Magic's main offensive weapon. I wonder if he is rethinking his strategy?
    I agree that he has to mix his game up (who doesnt) for him to be effective and yes I heard that about SVG as well.

    I caught some of the Magic vs Hawks game at halftime and I believe VC was still having a problem. One of the studio commentators made the assessment that his problem was trying to play within the system and his positioning was to be a spot shooter at the corners. Weeell where have we heard that before (Hedo)! Which is of course at odds with how you/I understand it.

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    Quote Ripp wrote: View Post
    I don't understand Vince's reasoning. Like, this is his best chance to redeem his legacy..why not fit in rather than forcing things?


    Hubris.

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    Quote Ripp wrote: View Post
    I don't understand Vince's reasoning. Like, this is his best chance to redeem his legacy..why not fit in rather than forcing things?
    The aforementioned - Hubris...but a couple of cliches also come to mind that apply to VC in ORL...
    "You can lead a horse to water... but you can't make him drink"
    "A leopard doesn't change his spots"
    "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth"

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