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Thread: aren't we stuck in mediocrity?

  1. #81
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    i feel your pain son, but let us give this group a chance if by mid-season we don't see anything positive we can re-visit this topic.

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Practising for a political career? Got the flip-flop down. Nice save to quickly insert another argument when it's being rebutted.
    Seems like you missed the point too, because it's the exact same argument whether he's on the cap for 8.5 or 6.whatever. That's still a lot of money to be paying for a role player when your 'star' players don't provide good contract value and still need a lot of expensive help around them in order to compete. Good job focussing on the irrelevant 'flip-flop' instead of trying to find a hole in my argument though.

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    That's the problem with people that don't agree with you, they're all ignoring reality and are pretty darn stupid. They think we are going to be champions for the next 10 years. Well, guess what, we won't. You tell em! (building my own Aunt Sally here)
    If you're telling me that Bargs and DeRozan are suddenly going to develop into players capable of leading a team to the conference finals, then yeah, I consider that ignoring reality. And that's the entire premise of the thread, whether or not this team is going to be stuck on the mediocrity treadmill. So as far as I can tell, you're critisizing me for pointing out that the team's core has not in any way shown it's capable of leading the team even as far as the playoffs, and that believing they'll suddenly make the leap to genuine franchise players is blindly believing in something for which there is no evidence. Ok then.

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    We all, except for you, expect them to become allstars or something like that? What?
    Sigh. One more time just so we're clear: that's what would have to happen if this team were to NOT be stuck in mediocrity. Anyone in this thread arguing that the Raps won't be mediocre is arguing that either the team's existing players will consistently lead them deep into the playoffs or that they'll be traded for players who will, or that they'll play along franchise player X that the raps will somehow acquire. My argument is that if none of those scenarios play out, Lowry has no incentive to stay unless the Raps throw a ton of money at him.

    Frankly I don't get why you posted those replies at all. You completely ignored and made no attempt to test the validity of my argument, all you did was take jabs at me for disagreeing with people that think DD and Bargs are capable of leading a contending team.

  3. #83
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    Jermaine O'neil... I'll take this gradual build. Positive things happening in raptorland, young team, plenty of room to grow. I'll be very happy if we grab that 8th seed. Going in the right direction.

    (meant as a reply to an earlier post re swinging for the fences and striking out)
    Last edited by big boi; Sun Oct 28th, 2012 at 01:58 PM.

  4. #84
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    I don't like your sentiments here because it's not even true. I know these teams are rare, but goddammit why can't we be one of those teams that catch fire in a bottle.

    OKC - drafted durant, westbrook
    BOS - Big 3 came together, before that they were a lottery team
    LAK - They retool and take big risks every couple of years

    Doesn't it feel like a rip-off to follow a franchise that won't take risks to obtain a higher level of talent. Im a go big or go home kind of guy.......
    I'm glad you're not the GM. Of course fine to have an opinion, but swinging for the fences (go big) and striking out (go home) could be the death knell for this franchise. They need to prove they are a relevant team in this league, first and foremost.

  5. #85
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    1. Landry's poison pill absolutely matters. The expensive year of his contract is the year it might interfere with resigning Davis and Lowry. It's not the worst thing in the world, but in that year Bargs, Amir, Fields, as well as JV and Ross' rookie deals will take up half the cap.

    2. It absolutely matters if the Raps get nothing for DeRozan, because there's very little chance they can replace him with a player that will catapult the team into contention. As for overpaying, consider the lack of quality 2 guards in the league, the fact that market value in the NBA is tied closely to offensive production, and that there are a lot of teams out there who have a lot more money than NBA talent on their rosters. I can easilly see someone offering DD 9-10 mil per year based on untapped talent, especially if he plays well this year.

    3. As for guaranteeing that Lowry will walk, I can't obviously - you're reading too much into a hastilly written post. But the only leverage the Raps have is an extra year on his next deal, and unless they're going to pony up a max contract, that hardly matters because another team can outbid them. So to me, the only way lowry stays is if the raps overpay or if the team shows enough growth that he wants to be a part of it going forward. As a guy who's all about winning, I would suspect he'd choose to partner with a real franchise player in pursuit of a championship over sticking with a treadmill team for another 4-5 years of first round playoff exits. But he might surprise me.

    4. If you want to keep your expectations high, go ahead. But what's that got to do with the topic of this thread, which is whether the team is stuck in mediocrity? I'm presenting the reasons for my opinion that they are (or will be, once they reach mediocrity). I'm actually quite optimistic about this season and about the team's climb into relevancy, but that doesn't mean I'm crazy enough to see deep playoff runs in their future.

    So dismiss my response with a 'whatever' and keep blindly believing the team can bust through mediocrity into the league's upper strata if you like, but until I see evidence that it can, I'm going to stay pessimistic.
    Was this hastily written also?... whatever.

  6. #86
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Seems like you missed the point too, because it's the exact same argument whether he's on the cap for 8.5 or 6.whatever. That's still a lot of money to be paying for a role player when your 'star' players don't provide good contract value and still need a lot of expensive help around them in order to compete. Good job focussing on the irrelevant 'flip-flop' instead of trying to find a hole in my argument though.
    First you said the poison pill absolutely matters in response to a remark that the poison pill doesn't matter for us. When you finally realise the poison pill really doesn't matter for us, you say that this doesn't make a difference. And apparently I missed the point ... Btw, first time I heard the term 'irrelevant flip-flop'; loving it.

    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Frankly I don't get why you posted those replies at all. You completely ignored and made no attempt to test the validity of my argument, all you did was take jabs at me for disagreeing with people that think DD and Bargs are capable of leading a contending team.
    It's hard to test the validity of a flip-flopping condescending straw man creating argument. You are condescending because you urge the fanbase to temper their expectations and call people who disagree with you blind believers. You create a straw man by arguing that "everyone" expects Bargani and DeRozan to develop into something special and attack that supposed argument. I doubt there are many people on here who think that, let alone "everyone". This is why you get the deserved 'whatevers'.

    I'm going to leave it at that. You can sigh all you want, but a little bit of introspection would go a long way.

  7. #87
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    First you said the poison pill absolutely matters in response to a remark that the poison pill doesn't matter for us. When you finally realise the poison pill really doesn't matter for us, you say that this doesn't make a difference. And apparently I missed the point ... Btw, first time I heard the term 'irrelevant flip-flop'; loving it.

    It's hard to test the validity of a flip-flopping condescending straw man creating argument. You are condescending because you urge the fanbase to temper their expectations and call people who disagree with you blind believers. You create a straw man by arguing that "everyone" expects Bargani and DeRozan to develop into something special and attack that supposed argument. I doubt there are many people on here who think that, let alone "everyone". This is why you get the deserved 'whatevers'.

    I'm going to leave it at that. You can sigh all you want, but a little bit of introspection would go a long way.
    I'm gonna ask this one more time: do you have anything in my argument you want to challenge other than semantics? Because you're still reading waaaaay too much into a few hastily chosen words instead of actually challenging my ideas.

    As for the rest of your complaints, this isn't the happy friends forum. I don't give a shit whether you think I'm condescending. And what you consider a straw-man argument is nothing short of laughable since that would mean either a) that I literally meant everyone, which is absurdly literal or b) that despite racking up nearly 1k posts on these forums, you've somehow missed the enormous group of people that still believe Bargs and DD are destined for greatness and/or will lead the team to the playoffs this year by stepping up their games.

    I still don't get why you felt the need to jump into a back and forth of which you weren't a part. As far as I can tell the only reason you did so was because you were pissy that someone was expressing negativity and apparently ruining your fun. Given that, the irony of your last sentence is just too appropriate. Just replace 'sigh' with 'whatever'.

  8. #88
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    ...you're still reading waaaaay too much into a few hastily chosen words instead of actually challenging my ideas...And what you consider a straw-man argument is nothing short of laughable since that would mean either a) that I literally meant everyone, which is absurdly literal or b) that despite racking up nearly 1k posts on these forums, you've somehow missed the enormous group of people that still believe Bargs and DD are destined for greatness and/or will lead the team to the playoffs this year by stepping up their games...
    Here's the thing Lark. Words have meanings. Since it is virtually impossible to convey intent with a raised eyebrow, when posting in a forum, the only think people can fall back on is your words. If you don't mean what you write, don't write it if you are trying to engage in a discussion. Of course, if you are just stirring the pot, have at it. A method of self-entertainment that has a long and illustrious tradition on the internet. If you are just stirring, then don't get pissy when people question your words.

    And as for "...missed the enormous group of people that still believe Bargs and DD are destined for greatness..." if you can find more than a dozen of each who believe either are destined for greatness, I will be surprised. Actually, if you can find 6 who believe either of them is destined for greatness I will be surprised.

    What I here most is people who think that neither have achieved their full potential. with Bargs, many believe that potential means close to All-Star status IF he can repeat the effort he put into last years magical 13 game stretch. If he can, he will certainly qualify on that score, given that each year 4 players are selected to be PF. His stats during that stretch would put him right there, with that group. As for DD, most people think that if he can achieve his potential, he could be something better than an average SG, say top 10 - 12 in the league. Don't believe there are many fans dusting off shelves in the Hall of Fame for DeMar's hardware.

  9. #89
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Here's the thing Lark. Words have meanings. Since it is virtually impossible to convey intent with a raised eyebrow, when posting in a forum, the only think people can fall back on is your words. If you don't mean what you write, don't write it if you are trying to engage in a discussion. Of course, if you are just stirring the pot, have at it. A method of self-entertainment that has a long and illustrious tradition on the internet. If you are just stirring, then don't get pissy when people question your words.
    I'm not trying to say I didn't mean what I wrote. Not at all. But I've already explained that I forgot poison pill contracts are averaged over their term for cap purposes and how that fact fails to invalidate my argument. Despite that, he keeps harping on the fact that I 'flip-flopped', as if I'm not human and not entitled to make mistakes. All I'm asking is that he focus on my actual argument instead of pointing to this one mistake as proof that my reasoning is unsound.

    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    And as for "...missed the enormous group of people that still believe Bargs and DD are destined for greatness..." if you can find more than a dozen of each who believe either are destined for greatness, I will be surprised. Actually, if you can find 6 who believe either of them is destined for greatness I will be surprised.

    What I here most is people who think that neither have achieved their full potential. with Bargs, many believe that potential means close to All-Star status IF he can repeat the effort he put into last years magical 13 game stretch. If he can, he will certainly qualify on that score, given that each year 4 players are selected to be PF. His stats during that stretch would put him right there, with that group. As for DD, most people think that if he can achieve his potential, he could be something better than an average SG, say top 10 - 12 in the league. Don't believe there are many fans dusting off shelves in the Hall of Fame for DeMar's hardware.
    Just as an irrelevant aside first, wouldn't you say that if Bargnani was named an all-star that he had achieved greatness? Is an all-star not great?

    Second, there's a reason I included the 'and/or make the playoffs', which you conveniently left out. I totally get your point and it's very likely that I've exaggerated the number of people that think Bargs and DD can be 'great' players, but there is certainly no shortage of people that think the team can and will make the playoffs on the backs of DD and Bargs raising their games (not to say that would be the ONLY reason, obviously new additions will contribute). I'm not going to re-state how that ties back into my original argument that the Raps are likely to be in a bad spot cap-wise because I'm tired of re-explaining what I've already covered. But to me, if you believe that the Raps are going to be able to outpace the mediocrity treadmill, then you have to believe that DD and Bargs will improve, whether to provide value in their contracts, provide trade-bait, provide incentive for others to stay and/or sign with the team, or by simply outplaying the competition. I don't think such an improvement is likely, and apparently my cautioning against expecting it was what Soft Euro considered condescending.

    Just to be clear, let's look at my original paragraph:
    "As for the 'all about winning' thing, that's all I've been hearing about him since he was traded here. That he's a bulldog, alpha competitor, hates to lose even in practice, etc. The Raps have two short years to prove to him that the team is headed in the right direction. But if Bargs and DD don't develop like everyone seems to assume they will, then where does that leave the team and why on earth would Lowry resign?"

    Now, take out the phrase 'like everyone seems to assume they will'. It changes literally nothing about my argument. That's what annoys me. He's not engaging in discussion, he's essentially just pointing out that I wrote the response at work without first taking a fine-toothed logic comb through it, and wrongly calling it a straw-man argument by focussing on an irrelevant phrase. It's pointless and does nothing to prove me wrong. So why bring it up?
    Last edited by Lark Benson; Sun Oct 28th, 2012 at 08:27 PM.

  10. #90
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    ...Just to be clear, let's look at my original paragraph:
    "As for the 'all about winning' thing, that's all I've been hearing about him since he was traded here. That he's a bulldog, alpha competitor, hates to lose even in practice, etc. The Raps have two short years to prove to him that the team is headed in the right direction. But if Bargs and DD don't develop like everyone seems to assume they will, then where does that leave the team and why on earth would Lowry resign?"

    Now, take out the phrase 'like everyone seems to assume they will'. It changes literally nothing about my argument. That's what annoys me. He's not engaging in discussion, he's essentially just pointing out that I wrote the response at work without first taking a fine-toothed logic comb through it, and wrongly calling it a straw-man argument by focussing on an irrelevant phrase. It's pointless and does nothing to prove me wrong. So why bring it up?
    Let's look at the section where you say "...The Raps have two short years to prove to him that the team is headed in the right direction. But if Bargs and DD don't develop like everyone seems to assume they will, then where does that leave the team and why on earth would Lowry resign?"

    Presumably BC knew far more about Lowry's character than anyone here. That's part of his due diligence. Either he has reason to believe Lowry will resign, or he has contingency plans. Bargs and Derozan might grow. Or other members of the team may grow enough to force improvement. Or Lowry may improve enough that suddenly HE becomes the trade chip BC can use to bring in the wing player the Raps have been looking for. I mean there are a slew of possibilities. I think people are taking issue with your casual dismissal of the possibility of anything ever turning out right.

    Lowry is quite good. JV could easily be a monster, it seems. Bargs is good, and apparently improving. The bench is deep in players that can easily mitigate against losing any one of the starters for 10 -15 games. That is a huge plus. Ross could turn out to be a player. The prognosis is good. You seemed to line up a bunch of the worst case scenarios and then proclaim that the Raps would be stuck in mediocrity because these worst case scenarios had a higher probability of occurring then any of the more positive ones.

    I think that is what people take issue with. Only a few people here actively wearing blinders, but nobody likes a doom and gloom proponent :-)

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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    You seemed to line up a bunch of the worst case scenarios and then proclaim that the Raps would be stuck in mediocrity because these worst case scenarios had a higher probability of occurring then any of the more positive ones.

    I think that is what people take issue with. Only a few people here actively wearing blinders, but nobody likes a doom and gloom proponent :-)
    I'm not outlining worst-case scenarios, I'm pointing out that unless a small miracle happens the Raps have no reason to expect anything better than mediocrity.

    Look at the scenario you outlined in your third paragraph. IF everything you mention happens, the Raps are still not a contender, not even close. A core of Lowry, Bargs and Val with a deep bench is nowhere close to talented enough unless Val turns out to be roughly a top-10 player in the league. This thread isn't about whether the Raps have reason for optimism; I've already stated that they do and that I'm excited for the upcoming season. This thread is about whether the Raps can become contenders, and it's EXTREMELY unlikely that they can without having another team hand them a disgruntled franchise player on the cheap because they almost certainly won't be acquiring one through the draft and they haven't shown they can lure one through free agency.

    So call it doom and gloom if you want, but I call it reality. Mediocrity is still a big step in the right direction for the franchise, but apparently once you type 'mediocrity' it really gets people heated.

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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    ...So call it doom and gloom if you want, but I call it reality. Mediocrity is still a big step in the right direction for the franchise, but apparently once you type 'mediocrity' it really gets people heated.
    Like I said, words have meanings. "mediocre - moderate to inferior in quality" or average to below average.

    If you assume that making the play-offs is "average or below average" then the Raps may very well be stuck there for a few years. If you were using the term "mediocrity" to mean "not being contenders (for the championship - ie. making it to semi-finals)" then that is stretching the meaning of mediocrity out of sight.

    Readers initial reactions were to your use of the term. Maybe they saw it as meaning something you didn't intend.

  13. #93
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    I'm not outlining worst-case scenarios, I'm pointing out that unless a small miracle happens the Raps have no reason to expect anything better than mediocrity...

    So call it doom and gloom if you want, but I call it reality. Mediocrity is still a big step in the right direction for the franchise, but apparently once you type 'mediocrity' it really gets people heated.
    I think this is the rub. What you consider "making an argument" looks to others like you are making a statement of fact. It's all in the way you position your "opinion" of the current and future state of the roster. IMO, you haven't made any kind of argument for what you think is going to happen -- you've simply stated what you believe is going to happen as if it's inevitable, and to top it all off, you've cast aspersions on those who don't agree with what you believe is going to happen, suggesting that they aren't living in the reality that you are.

    The bottom line is this:

    - The Raptors cap situation, as it sits currently, is fantastic when compared to the majority of teams around the league. This is fact, not a personal belief. The only overpaid asset on the roster is Calderon, who is expiring. I suppose one could make an argument for Amir, but I personally see him as good value at $7M. Bargnani is a flat-out bargain, rebounding stats included.

    - The Raptors players, as they currently sit, are generally a rising bunch. Of those considered "core" (at the moment; could change at any point due to transactions), you'd be hard-pressed to call anyone capped out on their potential with the possible exceptions of Bargs and Derozan, and saying so about either of those two would be pessimistic at this point, given what we've seen in preseason.

    You are correct that contracts will come up for renewal in 2 years, and decisions will have to be made. Welcome to the NBA. Toronto is no different from any other franchise in this regard. But their cap situation says they're in better position than most to deal with this challenge.

    Look, you can say you're a realist, but actually you're a pessimist. That's fine as paint, but don't let it cloud your judgement to the point that you think your future-prediction is any better than anyone else's, optimist or pessimist.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    fuck me, if I wasn't so busy studying/having fun I would respond to people putting words in my mouth. But I simply don't care enough. I feel sorry for lark who is trying to make good arguments, but then have you idiots arguing semantics with him. Makes me question the quality/intelligence of the people on this board........

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    ...I feel sorry for lark who is trying to make good arguments, but then have you idiots arguing semantics with him...
    You can't have a good argument if the meaning of your statements/words is not clear. This is not arguing semantics. If I say mediocrity, and mean "better than average, just not great," that has a different meaning than the dictionary assigns to that word, which is average or lower. If you then respond to my argument based on the dictionary definition, we wind up chasing our tails.

    In a recent post I made an argument and tried to prove it by using some incorrect stats that I scraped from a career "pre-season" record, as opposed to a career season record. Muddled thinking. My bad. But if you get upset with me because I respond to something you said, and you are not using a words accepted definition, your bad. That's not arguing semantics, that's you not expressing yourself clearly.

    Lark has said that his post was rather hastily put together at work, and he wasn't pretending it to be a high level analysis. No problem. I can see that. However, that is not how it came across when I first read it. Lark seemed to be making some pretty definitive statements. People responded. If they were just casual, off-hand observations, that's a different kettle of fish. In that case, my "Whatever" response was completely appropriate. In any case, like I said before, words have meanings. if you want to have a serious discussion, don't be lazy. If you just want to shoot the shit, no prob. But don't get wound up if I respond, "Yeah, right. Whatever"

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    fuck me, if I wasn't so busy studying/having fun I would respond to people putting words in my mouth. But I simply don't care enough. I feel sorry for lark who is trying to make good arguments, but then have you idiots arguing semantics with him. Makes me question the quality/intelligence of the people on this board........
    Take it easy akashsing, that really wasn't necessary.

    To those people arguing with Lark (and yourself), I'm sure they're just as frustrated... that's what having a difference of opinion is all about.

    I think the discussion/debate in this thread has been pretty intelligent, well thought out and well expressed. Please don't help degrade the discussion into immature name calling by coming on and doing nothing but just that.

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    you can say you're a realist, but actually you're a pessimist.
    The center is always to the right of the left, and to the left of the right.

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    The center is always to the right of the left, and to the left of the right.
    Are you questioning the definition of optimism vs. pessimism now? This isn't politics, a right vs. left, ideology-driven argument. It's future-prediction of a sports team. There's no "realism" to be had, one way or the other. You're either optimistic or pessimistic based on your perception of how future events might occur. Feel free to discuss potential future events as if they are inevitable, but if you think you're right and the other side is wrong, well, that's just silly, ignorant, and arrogant. That was my point.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Are you questioning the definition of optimism vs. pessimism now? This isn't politics, a right vs. left, ideology-driven argument. It's future-prediction of a sports team. There's no "realism" to be had, one way or the other. You're either optimistic or pessimistic based on your perception of how future events might occur. Feel free to discuss potential future events as if they are inevitable, but if you think you're right and the other side is wrong, well, that's just silly, ignorant, and arrogant. That was my point.
    Well if there is no realism to be had then "a pessimist" can't possibly have clouded judgement, or at the very least everyone's opinion is equally clouded.

    Anyways, my statement was just a point it was not political.

    The optimists tends to think anyone not optimistic is a pessimist. Pessimists tend to think anyone not pessimistic is an optimist. Each side thinks the others 'mism' is clouding their judgement and they are the realist.



    but if you think you're right and the other side is wrong, well, that's just silly, ignorant, and arrogant
    really? you mean like:

    The bottom line is this:

    - The Raptors cap situation, as it sits currently, is fantastic when compared to the majority of teams around the league. This is fact, not a personal belief

    hmmmm. Funny how that works isn't it?


    Lark clearly stated his opinion. He said it was his opinion. He is stating it on a basketball forum filled with opinion. How anyone can think he isn't clearly expressing an opinion is mind boggling. And ofcourse he thinks his opinion is right? Why would he argue it if he didn't?

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Well if there is no realism to be had then "a pessimist" can't possibly have clouded judgement, or at the very least everyone's opinion is equally clouded. The optimists tends to think anyone not optimistic is a pessimist. Pessimists tend to think anyone not pessimistic is an optimist. Each side thinks the others 'mism' is clouding their judgement and they are the realist.
    Yes, this is entirely true, and was exactly my point. Thanks for backing me up.

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Lark clearly stated his opinion. He said it was his opinion. He is stating it on a basketball forum filled with opinion. How anyone can think he isn't clearly expressing an opinion is mind boggling. And ofcourse he thinks his opinion is right? Why would he argue it if he didn't?
    He didn't state it as opinion. That's the problem. And he basically noted anyone not on board with his "opinion" is not a realist. When you state an opinion, reasonable people generally accept that there exist other, possibly equally-valid opinions. That's not the case here, which again, was my point. You can argue that opinions without any substantiation as to 'why' that opinion exists are the stock-in-trade of the internet if you want. That doesn't make it 'reasonable discussion'.

    BTW, re your quoted text from my reply: the Raptors cap situation IS fact, not opinion. How you 'feel' about the cap situation is your opinion, but they have money to spend and are not strapped by unworkable contracts. It's different from saying, for instance, that if the Raptors aren't making a deep playoff run within two years, Lowry will definitely leave.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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