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Thread: Raps' pick from the Lowry trade, plus two rooks Raps fans loved are now with OKC

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    Default Raps' pick from the Lowry trade, plus two rooks Raps fans loved are now with OKC

    So, how 'bout that Harden trade, eh?

    I was just thinking, now OKC's got Lamb, PJ3, and the draft pick we sent to Houston. If those guys/whoever the pick turns into end up being key pieces for a championship Thunder team...

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    means okc really needs a back up pg. jose to okc for our pick back. harden was their bench distributor

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    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    means okc really needs a back up pg. jose to okc for our pick back. harden was their bench distributor
    No they don't, they have Eric Maynor who they are really high on.
    LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    means okc really needs a back up pg. jose to okc for our pick back. harden was their bench distributor
    So basically, in this alternate dimension we basically traded Jose for Lowry straight up.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote Tesla wrote: View Post
    So basically, in this alternate dimension we basically traded Jose for Lowry straight up.
    Haha great way to look at it.. hopefully it happens, or at least something similar

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    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    I find it funny that every news source / user comment about the trade says that the Toronto pick is guaranteed to be high lottery. Should be some more motivation for the Raptors.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Presti is incredible.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Presti is incredible.
    And Morey further cements himself as an overrated hack. How funny will it be when/if Harden refuses to sign an extension.?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Ive gotta agree - good on Presti for this one. Think about it from the Raps perspective. Would you rather have James Harden (overpaid at the max) or Jose, DD (sort of equivilent to Martin put together), Ross (Lamb), our first round pick next year (ie Lowry now), and another two 2nd rounders picks (the other first rounder was a top 20 protected Mavs pick.. so almost like a 2nd rounder). This is the closest that I can approximate from the Raps.

    Seems like a hell of a steep price to pay for Harden. For Westbrook? Id do that in a split second. But, to me, if Harden is your best player .. you are in BIG trouble.

    You sometimes gotta have assets to get assets .. but I gotta say, good on Presti for this one (especially since its going be unpopular and took some real balls .. )
    Last edited by mountio; Sun Oct 28th, 2012 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Note - had the 2nd first rounder wrong .. read it was the lakers .. its actually the mavs

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    ...

    Seems like a hell of a steep price to pay for Harden. For Westbrook? Id do that in a split second. But, to me, if Harden is your best player .. you are in BIG trouble.

    ...
    The Rockets are now in trouble? Before the trade Lin was their best player. Harden is better than anyone on our roster. And the Rockets still have a bunch of young players with upside.

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    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    The Rockets are now in trouble? Before the trade Lin was their best player. Harden is better than anyone on our roster. And the Rockets still have a bunch of young players with upside.
    Im not doubting that their team is better now than they were before the trade. My point is that a team where Harden is your best player (hes a third banana .. MAYBE will grow into a 2nd banana at best) is not going to be a successful team. Yes, Houston still has some assets - but has traded quite a bit away in order to get Harden (effectively 3 first rounders with Lamb included). I wouldnt have made that deal for Harden. As I said .. for Westbrook? All day every day. But Harden is a top 30 player at best (NBARank has him at #58!). Too steep a price

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Im not doubting that their team is better now than they were before the trade. My point is that a team where Harden is your best player (hes a third banana .. MAYBE will grow into a 2nd banana at best) is not going to be a successful team. Yes, Houston still has some assets - but has traded quite a bit away in order to get Harden (effectively 3 first rounders with Lamb included). I wouldnt have made that deal for Harden. As I said .. for Westbrook? All day every day. But Harden is a top 30 player at best (NBARank has him at #58!). Too steep a price
    I agree with this in part. The one thing I will say is if there is any 2nd (or 3rd) banana in the league that has the opportunity to become a superstar its Harden. That said I don't think its gonna happen (although still a very good player)

    One advantage Houston has however is they will have the ability to attract FAs (state taxes, weather, 4th biggest city and metro area in America), and the money (thanks to Morley's well placed love affair with tapping into the asian market) to do it.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Im not doubting that their team is better now than they were before the trade. My point is that a team where Harden is your best player (hes a third banana .. MAYBE will grow into a 2nd banana at best) is not going to be a successful team. Yes, Houston still has some assets - but has traded quite a bit away in order to get Harden (effectively 3 first rounders with Lamb included). I wouldnt have made that deal for Harden. As I said .. for Westbrook? All day every day. But Harden is a top 30 player at best (NBARank has him at #58!). Too steep a price
    It will be interesting to see how he handles his new role in Houston.

    The reason he was 3rd banana after all was because he was the third top 4 draft pick to arrive in 3 years.

    While the argument can be made he benefited from the presence of KD and RW, one could make the argument he was limited by their presence as well. Which argument is right is going to be found out very soon.

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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Ive gotta agree - good on Presti for this one. Think about it from the Raps perspective. Would you rather have James Harden (overpaid at the max) or Jose, DD (sort of equivilent to Martin put together), Ross (Lamb), our first round pick next year (ie Lowry now), and another two 2nd rounders picks (the other first rounder was a top 20 protected Mavs pick.. so almost like a 2nd rounder). This is the closest that I can approximate from the Raps.

    Seems like a hell of a steep price to pay for Harden. For Westbrook? Id do that in a split second. But, to me, if Harden is your best player .. you are in BIG trouble.

    You sometimes gotta have assets to get assets .. but I gotta say, good on Presti for this one (especially since its going be unpopular and took some real balls .. )
    I am not so certain Houston overpaid for Harden, nor do I believe that Westbrook will remain a better player than Harden is a foregone conclusion.

    Harden has taken giant steps forward the past - his TS% was out of this world last season - and that with a ~20% usage rate. It remains to be seen what he will do in Houston. If he averages 35 minutes and 25-28% usage rate, he could average 23-25 PPG. As his TS% was so high last year, it's unclear to me where it will be with defenses focusing on him.

    It will be interesting to see how he plays with Lin.

    My opinion is that Houston is gambling on players whose ceiling is very uncertain. Jeremy Lin, Omer Asik (who I think of as much better defender than Noah), and now Harden. I doubt all three gambles will pay off but it's certainly an intriguing attempt at becoming relevant very quickly. I do hope it pays off for Houston.

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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I am not so certain Houston overpaid for Harden, nor do I believe that Westbrook will remain a better player than Harden is a foregone conclusion.

    Harden has taken giant steps forward the past - his TS% was out of this world last season - and that with a ~20% usage rate. It remains to be seen what he will do in Houston. If he averages 35 minutes and 25-28% usage rate, he could average 23-25 PPG. As his TS% was so high last year, it's unclear to me where it will be with defenses focusing on him.

    It will be interesting to see how he plays with Lin.

    My opinion is that Houston is gambling on players whose ceiling is very uncertain. Jeremy Lin, Omer Asik (who I think of as much better defender than Noah), and now Harden. I doubt all three gambles will pay off but it's certainly an intriguing attempt at becoming relevant very quickly. I do hope it pays off for Houston.
    I agree - Harden had some very very good stats, especially on a per minute basis. However, you have to think that a) coming off the bench and b) playing with Durant / Westbrook helped those stats a lot. He regularily played against other teams bench players .. and even then often had at least one of D/W playing beside him. He wont have either luxury playing for Houston .. and defenses will be gunning for him. Will be interesting to see what happens. I think this is a great example of how advanced stats dont tell it all. On a larger level its a similar argument to the Amir / AB argument .. where Amir appears to be efficient .. but thats based much more on his role and what he is / isnt asked to do that his skillset.

    As Ive said on here, its not that I think hes a bad player. In fact, I think hes a very good player. I would even stretch as far as top 30 in the league (ESPN ranks says #58).

    As for him vs Westrbook, ya, I guess nothing is a foregone conclusion .. but you are talking a top 10 for sure, arguably top 5 player in the league in Westbrook. A guy who can play PG, but also score at will and is a top 3 athlete beside Rose & Lebron (and DH12). He plays hard as hell and plays great D. I would build a franchise around him in a split second. I cant say the same for Harden.
    Is it possible Harden improves and Westbrook is too much of a headcase to ever fully "get it"? Ya, thats possible. But the odds are much better that Westbrook has a way better career than Harden.

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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    I agree - Harden had some very very good stats, especially on a per minute basis. However, you have to think that a) coming off the bench and b) playing with Durant / Westbrook helped those stats a lot. He regularily played against other teams bench players .. and even then often had at least one of D/W playing beside him. He wont have either luxury playing for Houston .. and defenses will be gunning for him.
    Each of the last two years, Harden played significantly better when he was on the court without Durant/Westbrook.


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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Presti is incredible.
    Do you feel they are a better team with K-Mart than Harden though? To me Harden was the hands down best player involved in the trade, and while they have lessened their luxury tax burden they may have just handed the Western Conference crown to the Lakers. Presti may have made a good decision in the sense that OKC will still be an excellent team, but when you reach the NBA finals one year and then down grade the team the next year what does it say for their chances to make it to the finals again much less challenge the Heat should they match up again?

    Just playing devils advocate here, but also interested if anyone else see's a downside for OKC in this trade.

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    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Do you feel they are a better team with K-Mart than Harden though? To me Harden was the hands down best player involved in the trade, and while they have lessened their luxury tax burden they may have just handed the Western Conference crown to the Lakers. Presti may have made a good decision in the sense that OKC will still be an excellent team, but when you reach the NBA finals one year and then down grade the team the next year what does it say for their chances to make it to the finals again much less challenge the Heat should they match up again?

    Just playing devils advocate here, but also interested if anyone else see's a downside for OKC in this trade.
    Of course there is downside. OKC is almost for sure worse this year because of the deal. Harden - while not a max player in my mind (and certainly not a #1 option), fits in great with that team and is an excellent glue guy. He for sure has more value in that setting than he does trying to lead his own team. But, when you consider that someone was going to max him out this year (whether hes worth it or not) - and thus OKC had to either match it (and see their flexibility hampered not to mention their tax position) or let him go .. then all things considered, this is a very good deal. As it likely makes them better every year except this year .. and considering how young Westbrook/ Durant are and how old the Lakers (and even the Heat a little bit) are - maybe they are better to play for a dynasty starting 2-3 years from now??
    Last edited by mountio; Sun Oct 28th, 2012 at 12:43 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Of course there is downside. OKC is almost for sure worse this year because of the deal. Harden - while not a max player in my mind (and certainly not a #1 option), fits in great with that team and is an excellent glue guy. He for sure has more value in that setting than he does trying to lead his own team. But, when you consider that someone was going to max him out this year (whether hes worth it or not) - and thus OKC had to either match it (and see their flexibility hampered not to mention their tax position) or let him go .. then all things considered, this is a very good deal. As it likely makes them better every year except this year .. and considering how young Westbrook/ Durant are and how old the Lakers (and even the Heat a little bit) are - maybe they are better to play for a dynasty starting 2-3 years from now??
    I agree with much of what you and others are saying in that Presti did a great job in getting back some real value for Harden whom they must have felt was going to walk at the end of the season if he didn't get his max contract, but I'm not sure if I agree with putting off a championship window for another year when you're there now. Who knows what the future will bring because a key player could get injured or Lamb could be a bust or the flexibility which they were trying to preserve doesn't guarantee they wil be able to pick up another key player to help them contend. Mean while other teams around the leage will continue to get better and the super teams will continue to add to their rosters.

    Again he did a great job in giving up the best player and getting back good value for it, but as far as contending for a championship he imo has seemingly taken a step back. Time shall tell I suppose.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Do you feel they are a better team with K-Mart than Harden though? To me Harden was the hands down best player involved in the trade, and while they have lessened their luxury tax burden they may have just handed the Western Conference crown to the Lakers. Presti may have made a good decision in the sense that OKC will still be an excellent team, but when you reach the NBA finals one year and then down grade the team the next year what does it say for their chances to make it to the finals again much less challenge the Heat should they match up again?

    Just playing devils advocate here, but also interested if anyone else see's a downside for OKC in this trade.
    I feel they are a better team for the long term. This season may suffer for this upcoming season but beyond this season they are definitely stronger. Time will tell.

    Martin is a damn good player too it should be noted. I don't think it is a given the Thunder are worse for this.

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