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Thread: Is Derozan contract that bad?

  1. #241
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Had DeRozan not been extended by Oct.31, he would have become a Restricted Free Agent in the offseason, not an Unrestricted Free Agent. The Raptors would have had a $4.5M cap hold, would have been able to match any offer DeRozan received from other teams and would still maintain his 'Bird rights'. The Oct.31 deadline wasn't the deadline to sign/renounce expiring contracts, it was just the in-season deadline to extend players specifically from the '09 draft class.
    A $4.5M qualifying offer.

    An $8.4M cap hold.

  2. #242
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Whoops. Joey and planetmars both beat me to it. Hopefully the point is hammered home 3-fold now.

  3. #243
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    A $4.5M qualifying offer.

    An $8.4M cap hold.
    Is what the number is? So I guess this is where Bryans point about the deal actually being more-or-less Cap Neutral, in terms of Flexibility this off-season.
    We essentially lose $1M of Flex-room this summer. Big deal.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...demar-derozan/

    Uhm, shouldnt DC be thinking that the money SHOULD change him and make him strive harder to get his numbers up, defend better? Coz if Demar thinks he's worth $10mil right now, then we're in deep shit.

  5. #245
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...demar-derozan/

    Uhm, shouldnt DC be thinking that the money SHOULD change him and make him strive harder to get his numbers up, defend better? Coz if Demar thinks he's worth $10mil right now, then we're in deep shit.
    He's probably talking about DeRozan's work ethic not changing (compared to many players in the past who scored the big paycheque, and loafed the rest of their career....e.g. Turkoglu).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  6. #246
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I think the $4.5M was just his QO. The cap hold would be 250% of this years salary ($3.3M), so about $8.25M. However the cap hold would go away if DeMar signed elsewhere or if we renounced it and he became a UFA.
    Oops, yes you're absolutely right, I did mean a $4.5M QO, which could still be extended after the season. Thanks for correcting me!

  7. #247
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    He's probably talking about DeRozan's work ethic not changing (compared to many players in the past who scored the big paycheque, and loafed the rest of their career....e.g. Turkoglu).
    hehehe i know, im starting up discussions on the other side of the spectrum, hehe

  8. #248
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Is what the number is? So I guess this is where Bryans point about the deal actually being more-or-less Cap Neutral, in terms of Flexibility this off-season.

    We essentially lose $1M of Flex-room this summer. Big deal.
    I agree it is no big deal as respect to the Flex-room.

    I am just not sold on DeMar being good enough to be a mediocre starter in this league and yet, he will be paid like a above average quality starter. It's a bad risk, and one I deemed unnecessary at this time because the Raptors could always match any offer next Summer if they did not agree on terms before the free-agency period.

    (And considering DeMar wanting to stay in Toronto, he might have accepted a little less than what other teams offered to play in Toronto /SARCASM=OFF)

    I am less optimistic about Toronto being relevant in the next 3-4 years after the Fields and DeRozan signings. I will continue to cheer for the Raptors and hope the players will prove me wrong.

  9. #249
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Is what the number is? So I guess this is where Bryans point about the deal actually being more-or-less Cap Neutral, in terms of Flexibility this off-season.
    We essentially lose $1M of Flex-room this summer. Big deal.
    It is a big deal when you look at opportunities of free agency, sign and trade, and (the most important issue, in my opinion) the possibility of no improvement in DeRozan's game. Also, in keeping assets, the Raps have taken a $3.3M expiring contract with restricted free agent rights and transformed it in to a 4 year, $38M contract for an ineffective and one-dimensional player.

    The Raps have willingly handcuffed their flexibility moving forward.

    I am not hating on DeRozan. If this contract was signed next summer after all other possibilities explored or if it was matched from another team, I could live with it. But signing it now was a HUUUUUUGE and unnecessary risk to the team moving forward. I do hope it all works out and DeRozan puts it together. I do hope it turns in to another Bargnani situation where his contract becomes reasonable. I am not hopeful or optimistic though - but do hope to be proven incorrect in my assumptions.

  10. #250
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I assume this cap hold would go away if someone else signed him to an offer sheet and we didn't match, correct? Then my original statement still holds true. I was really hoping DeRozan would be on another team next season.

    I think in BDL's Raptors preview they talked about this potential mess during the 2013 offseason, in that DeRozan plays much better this season and then we are stuck with the decision of whether to pay him 9-10M. Instead, Colangelo did it before he even had a chance to prove/disprove his doubters. Absolutely ridiculous move here. Just terrible.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  11. #251
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I assume this cap hold would go away if someone else signed him to an offer sheet and we didn't match, correct? Then my original statement still holds true. I was really hoping DeRozan would be on another team next season.

    I think in BDL's Raptors preview they talked about this potential mess during the 2013 offseason, in that DeRozan plays much better this season and then we are stuck with the decision of whether to pay him 9-10M. Instead, Colangelo did it before he even had a chance to prove/disprove his doubters. Absolutely ridiculous move here. Just terrible.
    +1

  12. #252
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Let's go through the teams around the league to see how DeRozan would fit. The criteria is that they can't have anyone better than him already and signing him to a contract of this size has to be in the realm of possibility.

    Boston: You can argue that DeRozan might start for them at this weird time (end of the Ray Allen era) but (a) they have Jason Terry off the bench, (b) they have Courtney Lee, who is much cheaper (c) they have Avery Bradley, currently injured. DeRozan is not much of an improvement over Lee, who costs 1/3rd of the price. So No.

    Brooklyn: $800 billion dollars in Joe Johnson. No.

    New York Knicks: I think DeRozan could probably do something here, but it's a weird situation in that who they have now (JR Smith) isn't exactly a good match for their franchise cornerstone in Carmelo. Shumpert is a nearly perfect match but won't be around for months. Having already used the amnesty, they couldn't really sign him, though, certainly not for $10 million. So No.

    Philadelphia: Jason Richardson is old, Evan Turner is not, and Nick Young is off the bench. I don't think they could afford this contract but since their stable of SG is relatively weak, I'll say Yes.

    Chicago: Rip Hamilton. Chicago will be looking for a SG this summer but they'll be capped out until 2014. No.

    Cleveland:Just drafted Dion Waiters. No.

    Detroit:A possibility. He's at least better than Stuckey, I think. Yes.

    Indiana: Paul George. No.

    Milwaukee: Monta Ellis, and they just refused to give this contract to Brandon Jennings, so No.

    Atlanta:They'll have a boatload of money so there's a possibility here. DeRozan along with Lou Williams and Jeff Teague make a decent backcourt. Also they probably will have trouble finding anyone to take that money they'll have. So Yes.

    Charlotte: It's Michael Jordan, so Yes.

    Miami: No.

    Orlando: No point with Afflalo. No.

    Dallas: I like Mayo better than DeRozan, and he's making half as much. No.

    Houston: Just got Harden so No.

    Memphis: Capped out and they've seen perfectly fine playing a cheap defensive guard at the 2 for the last few years, even to the point of shunting Mayo off to the bench. No.

    New Orleans: Austin Rivers. No.

    San Antonio: Popovich would have to have a stroke, forget who he is and what he believes in to sign a guy like DeRozan. No.

    Denver: They have like 7000 guards. No.

    Minnesota: A possibility. Yes.

    OKC: See Popovich. No.

    Portland: Wesley Matthews is a disappointing player that is still better than DeRozan. No.

    Utah: They'll be far under the cap. Yes.

    Golden State: They apparently love Klay Thompson. No.

    Clippers: Capped out. No.

    Lakers: lol No.

    Suns: They might have some cap space and they're really bad. Yes.

    Sacramento: Tyreke + cheap owners = No.

    Final Tally:

    7 out of 29 teams have "Targeting DeMar DeRozan" anywhere in the realm of possibility this summer; of those, 3 are based on the insanity of their front offices. So really there are realistically 4 teams that will be "fighting" to get DeRozan signed. Colangelo signed DeRozan to an insane undeserved contract to avoid these teams from "stealing" DeRozan.

    (Sorry for the length of this post).
    your pal,
    ebrian

  13. #253
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    I think this contract made me go over to the dark side.

  14. #254
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Let's go through the teams around the league to see how DeRozan would fit. The criteria is that they can't have anyone better than him already and signing him to a contract of this size has to be in the realm of possibility.

    Boston: You can argue that DeRozan might start for them at this weird time (end of the Ray Allen era) but (a) they have Jason Terry off the bench, (b) they have Courtney Lee, who is much cheaper (c) they have Avery Bradley, currently injured. DeRozan is not much of an improvement over Lee, who costs 1/3rd of the price. So No.

    Brooklyn: $800 billion dollars in Joe Johnson. No.

    New York Knicks: I think DeRozan could probably do something here, but it's a weird situation in that who they have now (JR Smith) isn't exactly a good match for their franchise cornerstone in Carmelo. Shumpert is a nearly perfect match but won't be around for months. Having already used the amnesty, they couldn't really sign him, though, certainly not for $10 million. So No.

    Philadelphia: Jason Richardson is old, Evan Turner is not, and Nick Young is off the bench. I don't think they could afford this contract but since their stable of SG is relatively weak, I'll say Yes.

    Chicago: Rip Hamilton. Chicago will be looking for a SG this summer but they'll be capped out until 2014. No.

    Cleveland:Just drafted Dion Waiters. No.

    Detroit:A possibility. He's at least better than Stuckey, I think. Yes.

    Indiana: Paul George. No.

    Milwaukee: Monta Ellis, and they just refused to give this contract to Brandon Jennings, so No.

    Atlanta:They'll have a boatload of money so there's a possibility here. DeRozan along with Lou Williams and Jeff Teague make a decent backcourt. Also they probably will have trouble finding anyone to take that money they'll have. So Yes.

    Charlotte: It's Michael Jordan, so Yes.

    Miami: No.

    Orlando: No point with Afflalo. No.

    Dallas: I like Mayo better than DeRozan, and he's making half as much. No.

    Houston: Just got Harden so No.

    Memphis: Capped out and they've seen perfectly fine playing a cheap defensive guard at the 2 for the last few years, even to the point of shunting Mayo off to the bench. No.

    New Orleans: Austin Rivers. No.

    San Antonio: Popovich would have to have a stroke, forget who he is and what he believes in to sign a guy like DeRozan. No.

    Denver: They have like 7000 guards. No.

    Minnesota: A possibility. Yes.

    OKC: See Popovich. No.

    Portland: Wesley Matthews is a disappointing player that is still better than DeRozan. No.

    Utah: They'll be far under the cap. Yes.

    Golden State: They apparently love Klay Thompson. No.

    Clippers: Capped out. No.

    Lakers: lol No.

    Suns: They might have some cap space and they're really bad. Yes.

    Sacramento: Tyreke + cheap owners = No.

    Final Tally:

    7 out of 29 teams have "Targeting DeMar DeRozan" anywhere in the realm of possibility this summer; of those, 3 are based on the insanity of their front offices. So really there are realistically 4 teams that will be "fighting" to get DeRozan signed. Colangelo signed DeRozan to an insane undeserved contract to avoid these teams from "stealing" DeRozan.

    (Sorry for the length of this post).
    so its settled then, derozan and calderon's expiring for josh smith!!

  15. #255
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    so its settled then, derozan and calderon's expiring for josh smith!!
    We'd still have a gaping hole at SF (I see Smith as a stretch 4).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  16. #256
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote Zach Lowe wrote:
    The trope is that “advanced statistics” frown on DeRozan, but the truth is that very few statistics of any kind paint him as a productive player. He’s a low-percentage shooter who can’t shoot 3s, and thus can’t space the floor on the wing. He has never shown even average creativity or timing as a passer, and Dwane Casey cut down on DeRozan’s pick-and-roll usage as soon as he got the Raptors head-coaching job. He’s a minus defender both on the ball (opponents shot better than 50 percent on isolation attempts last season, according to Synergy Sports) and not a particularly attentive helper off it. He’s only 23, but DeRozan has never had a league-average PER, and the chances he lives up to this deal are slim.
    Source.

    BC needs to be fired. I can't even describe how stupid this extension was. I could probably write an essay on it. It's been two friggin days and I'm still really upset about it. I was riding on the good Lowry & Val vibes and then we give a massive contract to a shooting that can't shoot. The team will, never, ever go anywhere worth a damn with Bargnani and DeRozan on the team.

  17. #257
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    I like Demar and want to see him on the team...as a 4-6M guard off the bench (at least he will take shots as a bench player). Upgrading the 2 and 3 has been a major need...and still is.

  18. #258
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    Source.

    BC needs to be fired. I can't even describe how stupid this extension was. I could probably write an essay on it. It's been two friggin days and I'm still really upset about it. I was riding on the good Lowry & Val vibes and then we give a massive contract to a shooting that can't shoot. The team will, never, ever go anywhere worth a damn with Bargnani and DeRozan on the team.
    It's worth reading this whole review. It describes the relative merits and faults of the contract quite well
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...ension-edition

  19. #259
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    It's worth reading this whole review. It describes the relative merits and faults of the contract quite well
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...ension-edition
    Thanks for link, Jclaw.

    We all know the bad - it has been discussed to death (even if it is true!). Lets look at the positives from Zach Lowe link Jclaw put up:

    That said, the Raptors can at least hang their hat on a few things here:

    • DeRozan has gotten to the foul line a fair bit, and that can be an indicator of future scoring prowess.

    • Toronto will only be a hair above the cap this summer — and maybe right at it — meaning they’ll still have the full mid-level exception to use without any danger of approaching the tax line.

    • DeRozan seems to be coming into his own as a bully of smaller players, something that might serve him well on the block against shooting guards.

    • The four-year length leaves the five-year designated-player tag in the bag for Jonas Valanciunas.

    • The Raptors cap sheet is clean enough that they could have something like $8 million to $10 million in cap space in the summer of 2014, even including Kyle Lowry’s cap hold. (Note: This assumes they renounce Ed Davis’s cap hold and that the salary cap levels grow by about 4 percent per year.)

    • Toronto doesn’t have much (i.e., any) record of drawing max-level free agents, so although max-level cap room is useful for other purposes — including in-season trades — it has different levels of utility to different teams.

    • Doing nothing is often not a realistic option for particular executives and ownership groups, even if it should be. There is an alternative path here: See how DeRozan performs this year, and if he’s shaky again with Terrence Ross waiting for more playing time, just let the guy walk and watch another sucker overpay. Teams are just loath to go that route, having invested years in asset development.

    It’s not a catastrophic deal, since Toronto isn’t contending anytime soon regardless, and the cap sheet is almost spotless after 2014-15. But it’s a bad contract.

    I am far from happy with it but I'm not as disappointed as I was. I am also still holding out hope a trade of significance can be done this season to shore up the wing (although, and this might come in a thread soon, I am extremely doubtful of this). Bottom line: BC lost a supporter in me - I know he is going to lose sleep over that.

  20. #260
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    If this DeRozan we saw vs Minny was the super improved, new, and permanent DeRozan, then his contract is an absolute steal.

    Please keep it up DeMar and make the majority of posters here - myself included! - eat their pixels.

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