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Thread: Is Derozan contract that bad?

  1. #141
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    A lot of it comes down to perception though. Chicago fans would look at it as:

    "Wow, Taj got a lot but we win 55+ games per year so whatever it takes to maintain that we should do it."

    Toronto fans look at our "hopeful" 8th seed and losing records year after year and think "WTF? $9m for a shooting guard who can't pass, defend or create his own shot?"
    your pal,
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  2. #142
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Hey, is this official? There is nothing on Raptors.com? Did the extension really get signed?
    I see the announcement here:
    http://blog.raptors.com/press-releas...act-extension/

  3. #143
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I like DD, and think he's one of those rare players that will continue to improve beyond the first 4 - 5 years of his career because of his gym rat habits, and though I'm not thrilled with how much they gave him you have to consider all the other players from his draft class are getting extended and for around the same range. I beleive DD's is on the low end of what other lottery picks in his draft class are getting. There had to be some pressure to get a deal done now and in the range of his peers.

    But what does this mean for Ross? He was a lottery pick as well, plays the same position, and though he isn't looking like he's NBA ready he should be starting next season. As OMG said, it just makes the pick look bad.

  4. #144
    Raptors Republic Starter Katman's Avatar
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    Unless the plan is to re-invent DD as a SF

  5. #145
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Well, the story continues. Why did I say that I expect more of the same from Colangelo? Because it's still the same guy. He overbid against himself. Again.

    DeRozan, who is at least right now in the bottom 50% of NBA starting guards, was just given a 4 year/$40 million extension.

    If you go by PER, DeRozan is #43 at the SG position, which is where he's played for most of his career. That's okay, though, I'm willing to cede 26 spots and say he's #16. I can't imagine anyone would rank him higher. Could he be better some day? Absolutely. And now he has to be.

    Colangelo needs someone to step in here. Overpaying your own guys didn't work before, it won't work again except by complete luck. This is a terrible move in rewarding a limited player who needs to improve fundamental parts of his game... at a position that in the NBA is easily filled (re: Landry Fields).

    What are the NBA player comparisons to DeRozan? I'm going to say it's DeShawn Stephenson on the low end, Rip Hamilton on the high end. Rip was given a contract equivalent to this when he was already fully developed -- and everyone mocked it and talked about how bad it was.

    Colangelo fell ass backwards into Landry Fields, and now he's just "locked in" the second worst starter on this team. I'm baffled.
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  6. #146
    Raptors Republic Rookie Th0m79's Avatar
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    Well, it's a lot of dough and a large commitment locking him up for the next 4 years (5 including this year). The weird thing is, DeRozan may have put more pressure on himself having signed this deal rather than waiting until the end of the season because now he HAS to justify BryCo's love and his value to the fans. There's still glaring holes in his game that he needs to rectify (defense, ball handling, offensive efficiency) and if he doesn't show steady improvement quickly, well, he's going to get it from the fans big time!

  7. #147
    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    WTF at the derozan hate

    did you all not watch any of the past two seasons with him averaging 16, 17 pts a game?

  8. #148
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote phez wrote: View Post
    WTF at the derozan hate

    did you all not watch any of the past two seasons with him averaging 16, 17 pts a game?
    If inefficient scoring and little else for a player you could have matched any contract for in July is your thing, then yeah, great signing.

  9. #149
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    All about retaining assets ... Especially with a difficulty in attracting free agents.

    Pieces for trade ... or maybe he stays and averages 18-19 points a game.

    As for the TRoss pick ... you need like 4-5 wings in your rotation
    +1

    A voice of reason.

  10. #150
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Something tells me that Bryan was fearing a Joe Johnson situation with DeMar. Joe left Phoenix to sign with Atlanta, and became a perennial all-star. Bryan probably fears the same with DeMar.

    If you actually look at Joe's stats in Phoenix they were not that great.. very similar to DeMar's in Toronto. Joe played a tonne of minutes, had a worse PER than DeMar and didn't do anything but try to score.

  11. #151
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Looking at Derozans 4-Year, $38M deal, it seems pretty much in line with Taj Gibsons 4-Year, $38M deal, and Jrue Holidays possible $46M over 4-Years.

    Yes this may be slightly more than he is worth RIGHT NOW, but we're not paying him $9.5M right now.
    We'll be paying him that next year. So lets wait and see before we start saying he's overpaid. Right now, he's paid just fine.

    I'm fine with the deal. Big fan of Derozan. No he's not perfect, but I believe he's aware of his imperfections and will continue to work to improve upon them.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  12. #152
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    And I was scared BryCo would give DeMar a 4 year $30M extension... What was I thinking?

    I don't understand why BryCo did not pursue Nicolas Batum much, much harder this past Summerr. I would much prefer Nicolas Batum at $14M per year plus a $2M a year scrub than the contracts he gave to Fields and DeRozan. Batum is a very good player with a realistic chance at becoming a star.

    Seriously.
    + Infinity
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  13. #153
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Looking at Derozans 4-Year, $38M deal, it seems pretty much in line with Taj Gibsons 4-Year, $38M deal, and Jrue Holidays possible $46M over 4-Years.

    Yes this may be slightly more than he is worth RIGHT NOW, but we're not paying him $9.5M right now.
    We'll be paying him that next year. So lets wait and see before we start saying he's overpaid. Right now, he's paid just fine.

    I'm fine with the deal. Big fan of Derozan. No he's not perfect, but I believe he's aware of his imperfections and will continue to work to improve upon them.
    Taj Gibson is a very good defender and can rebound some in addition to being a somewhat efficient scorer. There is also the question that there is a prenium on big men.

    Jrue Holiday was a better player than DeRozan and yet, I would not extend him for that much money unless it's clear he will be able to handle to point guard duties. I would be OK at $9-10M a year if he is projected as a SG.

    You're right it is more than he is worth right now, Joey. I would have had no problem with extending DeMar to such a contract if he had a good 2012-13 season, and wanted him to potentially seek better offers as a RFA. I saw no reason to extend him at such money at this time as it's unclear to me DeMar will ever amount to more than a weak starter-quality player.

    I think Doug Smith - yes, the Doug Smith who seems to always side with the Raptors management - said it best:
    "I’m not entirely sure about this DeMar DeRozan contract extension, to tell you the truth.
    The four-year, $38 million deal, barely signed before a midnight deadline, is all about paying for promise rather than production, in my opinion, and that’s a dangerous idea, one that’s all too prevalent in the NBA but dangerous nonetheless."

    I just don't see any markers which indicates DeMar will likely take a big step forward.

  14. #154
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Yup, when it comes to DeMar (and basically the whole team minus Jonas and Ross), we need to stop playing this "he's got potential" game. It's put-up-or-shut-up time. We don't need any more 7 year projects. DeMar's been in the league for 3 years, has been forced plenty of minutes, and has shown extremely little improvement. Why anyone (including Colangelo) would expect any significant improvement is beyond me.

    Talent, as Jonas has showed so far, is evident from day-1. We have yet to see DeMar's talent....most likely because he has none.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  15. #155
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    You're right it is more than he is worth right now, Joey. I would have had no problem with extending DeMar to such a contract if he had a good 2012-13 season, and wanted him to potentially seek better offers as a RFA. I saw no reason to extend him at such money at this time as it's unclear to me DeMar will ever amount to more than a weak starter-quality player.
    Ugh. I woke up this morning hoping that Michael Jordan would have somehow scuttled this deal by now.

    I've never been a Colangelo apologist, but I've always been able to find *some* logic in even his worst decisions (Turk, O'Neal, etc.). Not this time. I don't get it, at all. I agree that it's probably market value, but as someone else noted, why pay market value for something you don't want? And I appreciate the 'locking up assets' argument, too -- it's not ever going to be a completely immovable contract, but it may now require some sweetener to soften the financial blow to any trade partner, which may not have been necessary if they had waited until the summer to deal with this.

    Really don't get it.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  16. #156
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Something tells me that Bryan was fearing a Joe Johnson situation with DeMar. Joe left Phoenix to sign with Atlanta, and became a perennial all-star. Bryan probably fears the same with DeMar.

    If you actually look at Joe's stats in Phoenix they were not that great.. very similar to DeMar's in Toronto. Joe played a tonne of minutes, had a worse PER than DeMar and didn't do anything but try to score.
    Joe Johnson vs Demar Derozan the year before their new contracts:

    Per 15.1 vs 12.8
    ws/48 .112 vs .054
    efg% .536 vs .453
    ts% .556 vs .503
    rb% 7 vs 5.6
    ast% 13.2 vs 10.8
    stl% 1.2 vs 1.2
    to% 12.5 vs 10.5
    usg 19 vs 25

    Johnson shot .478 from three on 4 attempts a game that year

    Joe Johnson was showing year over year improvement, Demar has shown regression.
    (note: Joe Johnson also netted Boris Diaw, 2 first round picks and a trade exception - Demar is netting this team the right to pay him 10 mil dollars a year)

    The fear Demar doesn't live up to his contract > the fear of a 'Joe Johnson' situation

  17. #157
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    What drives me nuts about this signing is that you could insert JL3 at the 2 and get basically the exact same thing from him as you'd be getting from DeRozan: bad defense and some scoring. Frankly given that Lucas can actually handle the ball a bit and can hit a 3, he'd probably be an upgrade (and yes I'm exaggerating, but you get the point).

    If I had any faith at all in DeRozan's ability to improve over time then I'd be fine with this deal. But I don't. And more importantly, the only way it's gonna happen is if he has the ball in his hands more so that he can make more mistakes to learn from. That's hardly compatible with a team that wants to win now.

  18. #158
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    I guess the argument for BC extending now is that if DD has a monster year he would have to pay more. But the risk is way more that DD doesn't live up to his contract, especially with Ross waiting.

    I think DD is a good kid and he's going to try but the questions is if that's going to be good enough.
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  19. #159
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Joe Johnson vs Demar Derozan the year before their new contracts:

    Per 15.1 vs 12.8
    ws/48 .112 vs .054
    efg% .536 vs .453
    ts% .556 vs .503
    rb% 7 vs 5.6
    ast% 13.2 vs 10.8
    stl% 1.2 vs 1.2
    to% 12.5 vs 10.5
    usg 19 vs 25

    Johnson shot .478 from three on 4 attempts a game that year

    Joe Johnson was showing year over year improvement, Demar has shown regression.
    (note: Joe Johnson also netted Boris Diaw, 2 first round picks and a trade exception - Demar is netting this team the right to pay him 10 mil dollars a year)

    The fear Demar doesn't live up to his contract > the fear of a 'Joe Johnson' situation
    You have to look at the first 3 years for Joe and compare then with the first 3 years with DeMar.... The 4th year for Johnson would be the current year for DeMar.. I don't have faith that he would have as a good a year, but Bryan may have and thus offered the contract extension now.

    Here is comparing Joe's 3rd year with DeMar's 3rd year:

    Per 13.9 vs 12.8
    ws/48 .047 vs .054
    efg% .462 vs .453
    ts% .491 vs .503
    rb% 6.6 vs 5.6
    ast% 18.6 vs 10.8
    stl% 1.4 vs 1.2
    to% 12.5 vs 10.5
    usg 21.6 vs 25

    Joe wins by a nose, but as you can see it's fairly close.
    Last edited by planetmars; Thu Nov 1st, 2012 at 10:40 AM.

  20. #160
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    There's no defending this extension, BryCo made a huge mistake with this one.

    Waiting and seeing how DD developed this year and extending a qualifying offer would've been so much better than just offering the extension IMO. If DD breaks out this season, we'd have the right the match, and would probably do so and then he'd deserve to be paid well. Why overpay him now when he hasn't even show any tangible signs of improvement beyond being a one-dimensional scorer?

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