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Thread: Fire Colangelo!

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    Can't we torpedo charlz instead?
    but your mom would miss me
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That is going to happen on any pick that has protections though. For example, Dallas can't trade a pick because they still have a top 20 pick outstanding. I'd much rather see the Raps pick with the protections it has right now versus a straight pick. Even in that situation they still can't trade a pick (unless the Raps select for a team on draft night) until 2015.

    The argument, as I understand it, is the pick should have been used to acquire an asset. I am struggling to think of a better asset to acquire with it than Lowry.
    Not my intentions. My point was the opportunity cost of the structure of the deal is more than just trading a pick for Lowry. ie. If it was a straight 2013 pick a future pick could still be traded. But as it stands, the deal means one less asset can be moved if necessary.

    Back to the earlier comment of trading for a certainty versus an uncertainty.

    Lowry, right now, is an asset that will improve the team for the next two years. An improved win/loss record may make it easier to attract free agents for less than atrocious money.

    Additionally, Lowry could be packaged with someone else in the trade deal to acquire a better player than packaging a pick in the 6-10 range and anyone on the roster the Raps would choose to trade (the likelihood of the Raps playing badly enough to acquire a pick in the 3-5 range is slight). I still don't see the attraction of an unknown pick (in the 6-10 or lower range) and their lower salary and their likely lower ability that might be available at some unknown time in the future. But I suppose it is a philosophical difference.
    If certainty > uncertainity, I'm not sure how the certainity of the deal is justified by the uncertainty of other deals that could come from it. None the less, I'll point out the certainity of retaining draft picks (due to the CBA) vs the uncertainty of Lowry's future (due to UFA) should also be heavily considered then as it is the most certain of anything in the deal. But yes, if Lowry is somehow parlayed into an even better player or a higher pick than Toronto would have had, its a great deal. But I'm not sure there is much to indicate, given Colangelo's intentions with this team, there is any chance of even being considered anyways.

    As I mentioned above to Matt52, the opportunity cost of the deal is more than just Lowry for a pick. Its Lowry guaranteed for 2 years vs a guaranteed lottery pick and the option of trading a pick until the deal is complete.

    There is perhaps some philosophical difference. As I don't think Toronto will ever have an easy time signing FAs without overpaying, and even then it likely won't be the calibre that we may need (eg. Jack, Fields, Kapono, Hedo etc), with the exception of the team perhaps being able to sign vets who want to win now when/if Toronto is a contender. And as such, in order to get to that point, Toronto will likely need to make full use of the draft and trades to have the necessary players. Two things that the Lowry deal limits.

    Again this isn't a matter of it being bad. Its just that due to the opportunity cost of the deal, I don't think the deal was the steal alot want to make it out to be. It was add wins now vs add wins later.

    It could be a great deal if:

    1) Lowry resigns at a fair price
    2) there is no one as good as Lowry available at the time of the pick.
    3) It has some sort of short term impact on the team (ie. able to sign a FA as you mentioned or turned into a greater trade)

    But it could be a bust of a deal if
    1) Lowry doesn't resign
    2) the Raps miss out on a player as good or better than Lowry
    3) the Raps miss out on an even greater deal because they can't include the necessary assets (ie. a pick)

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Starter connected's Avatar
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    I was hoping BC wasn't going to offer a massive contract to DD and go after JJ Redick and Wright in free agency -- two very attainable FAs (obviously was hoping for JSmith but that's a pipedream)

    BC has connections around the league can make trades happen and drafts well but with the contracts he's handed Calderon, Ford, Kapono, Turkgelo, Diaw, LK and now Demar it's obvious he shouldn't be doing the negotiations

    It's painful to think DD will be making the same as Kirilenko, Gerald Wallace, Varejao, Marion, Gallinari, SCurry, Holliday, DeAndre Jordan, Nash, Rondo, Batum, Tim Duncan. A combination of past and present allstars or much more talented players

    I like DD and his attitude but I think we will looks back at this signing like a Richard Jefferson or Maggette contract -- sure they can score but what else

  4. #24
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    we have very little financial flexibility going forward, the players we have to show for this don't have much talent. He had a go (2), now it's time to move on. The new guy can come in and do a fire sale on our assets for draft picks and we go from there.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Starter Deadallus's Avatar
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    Quote madeupid25 wrote: View Post
    Maybe this is just an add on to the mediocrity thread...

    I like Demar. He seems like a great kid.

    But he has been getting starters minutes on a terrible team for 3 years, and has not been an efficient scorer. His game has limitations which he may or may not overcome, and Colangelo just handed him a contract that he didnt need to at this time, which few other teams were likely to offer him.

    For some time it has appeared to me that BC is trying to get us back into the playoffs at any cost, to secure himself a long term extension. Competing for a championship with this group seems very unlikely.

    This summer Colangelo's first priority was to try to sign Steve Nash, who has probably got 2 - 3 good years left in the league.

    With Demar, with Amir, Kleiza, and Fields the Raptors offered more money and more years than these players were likely to get elsewhere, in the hope that these players would develop into something more than they have showed in their respective careers so far.

    Championship teams are not built on hope, on potential, or because their players are good guys. They are built around a core of elite players, with affordable role players, who are allowed to walk when their price becomes too high. Ultimately the Bulls needed MJ and Pippen, they didn't need Horace Grant.

    Does anyone around here honestly believe that the Raptors with this core, will be any better than Atlanta has been this past few years? Unless Jonas grows into a top 20 player in this league I do not see it happening.

    Credit Danny Ferry (gulp) with shedding the Joe Johnson contract this year because he seemed to realize that with that group, they still didnt have a chance in hell of beating the Heat in a 7 game series. He probably thinks they will have a better chance in the long run if they sign Howard or CP3 this coming off season. I doubt he signs either one, but at least he recognized that his club had hit their ceiling, and it wasnt good enough.

    Starting next year we will be paying Joe Johnson money for Bargnani / DeRozan combined. And after 2 games (lol) it seems like Lowry will be in line for a max extension with this club, with this gm, compared to what the other players on the team will be earning.

    So the starting 5 of our future is Lowry, DeRozan, Fields, Bargnani, and JV ? Do you guys see us hoisting any banners in the next few years? I don't.

    I am kind of hoping this team shits the bed so Colangelo gets fired and we end up coughing up a late lottery pick this season to OKC for the Lowry deal. At this point I do not see Colangelo taking us to the promised land. I would like to see MLSE request from Denver to negotiate a deal with Masai Ujiri. Offer him the role of team President, I like what he has done in Denver.

    I do want to mention that I am a Leafs fan, and my attitude towards Burke is quite similar. But last year, when the team started out well, I was just happy they were winning so I quit complaining and cheered with everybody else. But when the team completely colapsed and the season fell apart due to the same problems that had plagued the roster for several years I was not the least bit surprised. I am sick of feeling like this with Toronto sports teams. I would gladly root for a team with potential if it seemed like they were building toward something great. But with this Raptors squad, with this GM, I just don't see it.

    I hope I am wrong. We'll see.
    Is this a Lakers blog?
    Deadallus

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Not my intentions. My point was the opportunity cost of the structure of the deal is more than just trading a pick for Lowry. ie. If it was a straight 2013 pick a future pick could still be traded. But as it stands, the deal means one less asset can be moved if necessary.



    If certainty > uncertainity, I'm not sure how the certainity of the deal is justified by the uncertainty of other deals that could come from it. None the less, I'll point out the certainity of retaining draft picks (due to the CBA) vs the uncertainty of Lowry's future (due to UFA) should also be heavily considered then as it is the most certain of anything in the deal. But yes, if Lowry is somehow parlayed into an even better player or a higher pick than Toronto would have had, its a great deal. But I'm not sure there is much to indicate, given Colangelo's intentions with this team, there is any chance of even being considered anyways.

    As I mentioned above to Matt52, the opportunity cost of the deal is more than just Lowry for a pick. Its Lowry guaranteed for 2 years vs a guaranteed lottery pick and the option of trading a pick until the deal is complete.

    There is perhaps some philosophical difference. As I don't think Toronto will ever have an easy time signing FAs without overpaying, and even then it likely won't be the calibre that we may need (eg. Jack, Fields, Kapono, Hedo etc), with the exception of the team perhaps being able to sign vets who want to win now when/if Toronto is a contender. And as such, in order to get to that point, Toronto will likely need to make full use of the draft and trades to have the necessary players. Two things that the Lowry deal limits.

    Again this isn't a matter of it being bad. Its just that due to the opportunity cost of the deal, I don't think the deal was the steal alot want to make it out to be. It was add wins now vs add wins later.

    It could be a great deal if:

    1) Lowry resigns at a fair price
    2) there is no one as good as Lowry available at the time of the pick.
    3) It has some sort of short term impact on the team (ie. able to sign a FA as you mentioned or turned into a greater trade)

    But it could be a bust of a deal if
    1) Lowry doesn't resign
    2) the Raps miss out on a player as good or better than Lowry
    3) the Raps miss out on an even greater deal because they can't include the necessary assets (ie. a pick)
    Fair enough. But at some point one needs to poop or get off the pot. Considering we know most draft picks are out of the league in 4-6 years and Lowry is a triple double threat (or near threat) every time he steps on the court, I still think it was a steal for the Raptors.

  7. #27
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Fair enough. But at some point one needs to poop or get off the pot. Considering we know most draft picks are out of the league in 4-6 years and Lowry is a triple double threat (or near threat) every time he steps on the court, I still think it was a steal for the Raptors.
    unless he refuses to re-sign here/demands to be traded. Thus losing a draft pick and destroying the credibility of this franchise even further. And who can blame him, he busts his hump out there (rajon rondo like really) only to see andrea smiling as the team continues to get brutally anal raped in the paint. sigh. end rant.

    but I digress, your point is still true for the moment, mine is just wild speculation.
    Last edited by akashsingh; Sun Nov 4th, 2012 at 10:48 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Again this isn't a matter of it being bad. Its just that due to the opportunity cost of the deal, I don't think the deal was the steal alot want to make it out to be. It was add wins now vs add wins later.
    For this case, if BC didn't get Lowry this year, I am 1000% sure lots of us will say he didn't do anything and wanna fire him now. If u r the GM, u may add wins later cox u still have credit; but BC has no choice and have to add wins now.

    I understand u wanna weight the opportunity cost of raptors; but you forget about the opportunity cost of BC. So, if you could forget about the way what r u thinking, and just think about how BC could make a better deal and add wins today to save his job may more make sense.


    Beside, I wanna fire BC for a long time just because he didn't wanna trade AB7 away. But what he did this year is okay to me.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Frynoodle wrote: View Post
    For this case, if BC didn't get Lowry this year, I am 1000% sure lots of us will say he didn't do anything and wanna fire him now. If u r the GM, u may add wins later cox u still have credit; but BC has no choice and have to add wins now.

    I understand u wanna weight the opportunity cost of raptors; but you forget about the opportunity cost of BC. So, if you could forget about the way what r u thinking, and just think about how BC could make a better deal and add wins today to save his job may more make sense.


    Beside, I wanna fire BC for a long time just because he didn't wanna trade AB7 away. But what he did this year is okay to me.
    My concern isn't with BC's job, atleast only so far as it effects the Raptors. Its with how good this team is and can be. If BC did this just to save his job, then he isn't working in the best interest of the team and he should be removed from his position immediately.

    The opportunity cost to BC is meaningless to me.

  10. #30
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    My goodness.

    I read the players listed that signed those 'bargain' contracts. None of them at this point in their careers really have the upside of Derozan. While Derozan at this point, is a guy who is capable of giving you 18+ a night, and (if he is consistently doing it based on the last two games) plays athletic defense, getting into passing lanes, hand on shots, covering ground.

    Colangelo has finally put a plan in, and a lot of people really have to look at the individual FIRST. Landry sure, maybe he was used so that New York didn't acquire Nash, BUT, I really believe he fits this team's system. Rebounder, defender, off-the-ball scorer, and seems like a point-forward type player for he can handle in the back-court. Great all-around player.

    Contracts are one thing, the player is another.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Rookie bhattmagandhi's Avatar
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    DeRozan has the potential to score 18-20ppg for the next 4 seasons. Same with Bargnani. If they AT ALL develop any sense of defense, then the contracts of 10mil/year are justified. The reason that most people feel that they are overpaid is because they tend to play on Offense but not Defense. So that's the only concern I have with their pay. Aside from that, their offensive production, when they're playing the way they're capable of, warrant the type of money they're receiving.

    In terms of firing Colangelo.... its 2 games into the season... the product is exciting and competitive.... seriously? It's too early to judge the year, and its far too premature for this type of talk...
    "Be true to the game, because the game will be true to you. If you try to shortcut the game, then the game will shortcut you. If you put forth the effort, good things will be bestowed upon you. That's true about the game, and in some ways about life too." ~ Michael Jordan
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  12. #32
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    Seriously... How many of these "Fire BC" threads do we need...? Maybe we need to make an "Everything Fire BC Thread".

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    Seriously... How many of these "Fire BC" threads do we need...? Maybe we need to make an "Everything Fire BC Thread".
    I'll second that if it keeps it out of all the other threads.

  14. #34
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    It is well known that BC has been average if that and nothing more but firing him at this time is not the solution. There are no guarantees on this years team either but let's not get disheartened so soon. Losses can make us feel discouraged but let's be patient and give them some time. In my opinion, if they are 2 or 3 games under .500 at the all-star break, it's an encouraging sign 'cause this is a team that is being REBUILT. His performance as Raptors GM has not been great but let's not forget that he still is one of the shrewdest executives in the league.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  15. #35
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    It is well known that BC has been average if that and nothing more but firing him at this time is not the solution. There are no guarantees on this years team either but let's not get disheartened so soon. Losses can make us feel discouraged but let's be patient and give them some time. In my opinion, if they are 2 or 3 games under .500 at the all-star break, it's an encouraging sign 'cause this is a team that is being REBUILT. His performance as Raptors GM has not been great but let's not forget that he still is one of the shrewdest executives in the league.
    Exactly. Like I said to all the people who want BC out of Toronto, who are you gonna replace him with that will be any better than what he does that actually wants to be the GM of the Toronto Raptors? You fire BC and make Ed Stefanski GM (since he's more or less the next person in line). When Stefanski fucks up or does something we don't agree with (all GMs are constantly criticizes for what they do in every fan base in sports), people are gonna continue crying about how he needs to get fired as well. Fans need to realize that GMs will do things that not all of us agree with. BC has done a good job in the offseason getting Lowry, and JL3. Everyone was happy about it and praised BC about how this will help shape us into a potential playoff team. Everyone's saying, "In BC we trust". Now he gives Demar a slightly higher contract that we wanted, he deserves to be fired right out the bat? What's wrong with you and your logic? He does a lot things wrong (Maybe Demar's contract, Fields, and Bosh), but he also does a lot of things right (Draft JV, got a potential all-star in Lowry, and hired a defensive-minded coach in Casey). All GMs deal with this and BC is not any different. Is he an amazing GM? No, but he's still doing a decent job. He has reshaped a rebuilding team into a team that hasn't been this exciting to watch in a long time. Fans need to chill out when things don't go their way.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    bargs 4-16 10pts 1 REB 24 mins vs a terrible team - I HATE watching his effort trade him now!

    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    Forget all that

    fire him because the root problem of this team will never be fixed while he is here.

    The listless 7 foot italian kid who has the arrogance to suggest he hasn't worries about his jump shot since he was 6.

    Bargs thinks he is the sh* because he has incredible skill and size.... but he is the furthest thing from a champion - and he shows it to us time and again... Most recently when 4 inches shorter DAVID WEST skull f'ed him in the 4th quarter of the home opener.

    Torpedo Bargs and Calderon and Bring in a Nicolas Batum and the team will change over night.... easier said than done.

    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    bargs 4-16 10pts 1 REB 24 mins vs a terrible team - I HATE watching his effort trade him now!
    Who in their right minds would take Bargnani right now?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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