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Thread: this lineup isn't working

  1. #1
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    Default this lineup isn't working

    scoring well, giving it all back on the defensive end. This clearly isn't the casey ball which got defensive stops last year.

    who would you have starting and coming off the bench?

    from what I've seen we should have:

    Valanciunas
    Davis
    Alan Anderson
    Derozan
    Lowry

    off the bench:
    Gray
    Bargnani
    Fields
    Ross
    Calderon

    Alan Anderson is a threat from deep, he seems okay hitting the spot up 3 and he plays defense. Bargnani on the 2nd unit means it actually has offense and his defensive miscues can be less highlighted with him guarding less elite players.

    Im actually a fan of that small backcourt with lowry and jose, but ONLY if the other team has a small backcourt as well.

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    I actually think it's going quite well. If any Raptor Republicans feel like we could have hung this well with the roster last year, I'd be very surprised. If we had last years roster, imho, I think we would have gotten smoked. This team has looked great. Brooklyn and Indiana are 2 top notch teams with some great star power. Our group of guys had the Pacers on the ropes and short of David West going into beast mode and the refs being complete goofs last night in Brooklyn, I think this team would be looking at a 2-0 start rather than 0-2. This team is good and for once, I am not rolling my eyes at the "give it time" remark. Minnesota will get us our first W.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Vincent's Avatar
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    Lasat night the bench let us down in the second quarter. The starters played well, and we built a good lead. Casey needs to get a better feel for his bench. I have to say I am happy with the improvement in Davis. As for the starters maybe Fields should see less minutes unless he can start to hit baskets. His defence has been ok, but maybe with more time he will find his way.

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    Wow. How bout you give them at least 10 games to play. And once theres 72 games left in the season THEN you can start worrying. Relax, im sure they'll figure it out sooner rather than later.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    scoring well, giving it all back on the defensive end. This clearly isn't the casey ball which got defensive stops last year.

    who would you have starting and coming off the bench?

    from what I've seen we should have:

    Valanciunas
    Davis
    Alan Anderson
    Derozan
    Lowry

    off the bench:
    Gray
    Bargnani
    Fields
    Ross
    Calderon

    Alan Anderson is a threat from deep, he seems okay hitting the spot up 3 and he plays defense. Bargnani on the 2nd unit means it actually has offense and his defensive miscues can be less highlighted with him guarding less elite players.

    Im actually a fan of that small backcourt with lowry and jose, but ONLY if the other team has a small backcourt as well.
    Im glad you arent running the team - although you are bang on that something needs to change .. I just dont think you have the names right.

    Lets start with key principles
    1) This isnt hockey. We dont need to think of our players in "shifts". This is Casey's biggest problem by far - need to stagger the starters with the bench players
    2) Our best four players are KL, AB, DD, JV. This team should NEVER play extended minutes without at least one of them on the court (unless we are down 20+)
    3) We are trying to succeed this year, yes, but more importantly, we are building for the future. That means, players like T Ross and JV need to get time ahead of guys like AA and AG (even though I will admit both of those guys have given us ok minutes)

    I think T Ross should eventually start (Fields / DD doesnt work, neither can shoot from distance). However, Im ok with starting Fields and giving him a quick hook for T Ross, say half way through the first. I also think a quick for for AB in favour of Ed is a good idea - but you cant start Ed+DD+Fields (no shooters). Lowry should log major minutes - most on the team. JV should too (assuming he can stay out of foul trouble).

    I look at it like this:

    Starters (KL, DD, AB, JV, LF)
    6 mins in (KL, DD, JV, ED, TR)
    Start of the 2nd AB comes back in, as does AJ for JV.
    Around the same time, JC comes in for one of DD or KL, who get a spell and when they come back in, the other goes off.
    LF (or AA/DM in VERY SMALL doses) spell TR/DD - but TR should be getting the most minutes of any of the other four.

    Its not rocket science .. but cuts the rotation down to 9 (starters + ED, AJ, TR, JC) and for the most part, keeps 2 of AB, KL, DD, JV on the floor at the same time.

    Also, I like the combo of ED / KL and JC / AJ - I think those sets mix better than the other way around.

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    Quote mikeyraps wrote: View Post
    I actually think it's going quite well. If any Raptor Republicans feel like we could have hung this well with the roster last year, I'd be very surprised. If we had last years roster, imho, I think we would have gotten smoked. This team has looked great. Brooklyn and Indiana are 2 top notch teams with some great star power. Our group of guys had the Pacers on the ropes and short of David West going into beast mode and the refs being complete goofs last night in Brooklyn, I think this team would be looking at a 2-0 start rather than 0-2. This team is good and for once, I am not rolling my eyes at the "give it time" remark. Minnesota will get us our first W.
    except the pacers were missing their franchise player, and promptly got beat by charlotte the night after.

    as for the nets, they sure have fire power up front to make up for scrubs like gerald wallace, joe johnson, and deron williams, yeah there was no way the raps could've contained stars like brook lopez and humphries. (end sarcasM)

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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Im glad you arent running the team - although you are bang on that something needs to change .. I just dont think you have the names right.

    Lets start with key principles
    1) This isnt hockey. We dont need to think of our players in "shifts". This is Casey's biggest problem by far - need to stagger the starters with the bench players
    2) Our best four players are KL, AB, DD, JV. This team should NEVER play extended minutes without at least one of them on the court (unless we are down 20+)
    3) We are trying to succeed this year, yes, but more importantly, we are building for the future. That means, players like T Ross and JV need to get time ahead of guys like AA and AG (even though I will admit both of those guys have given us ok minutes)

    I think T Ross should eventually start (Fields / DD doesnt work, neither can shoot from distance). However, Im ok with starting Fields and giving him a quick hook for T Ross, say half way through the first. I also think a quick for for AB in favour of Ed is a good idea - but you cant start Ed+DD+Fields (no shooters). Lowry should log major minutes - most on the team. JV should too (assuming he can stay out of foul trouble).

    I look at it like this:

    Starters (KL, DD, AB, JV, LF)
    6 mins in (KL, DD, JV, ED, TR)
    Start of the 2nd AB comes back in, as does AJ for JV.
    Around the same time, JC comes in for one of DD or KL, who get a spell and when they come back in, the other goes off.
    LF (or AA/DM in VERY SMALL doses) spell TR/DD - but TR should be getting the most minutes of any of the other four.

    Its not rocket science .. but cuts the rotation down to 9 (starters + ED, AJ, TR, JC) and for the most part, keeps 2 of AB, KL, DD, JV on the floor at the same time.

    Also, I like the combo of ED / KL and JC / AJ - I think those sets mix better than the other way around.
    1) I think casey is doing it to build chemistry between our "best players" (on paper at least), I have no idea if he will stagger the talent (outside of foul trouble), but he may change who he plays together.

    3)I don't think we would be doing ross any favours starting him at SF when he can be outmuscled by 100% of the competition at that position lol.

    I also think it would look incredibly stupid on the organization to start him over derozan who we just gave a huge contract to. If that is what you were suggesting.

    what is wrong with giving ross minutes behind derozan? Derozan screwing up and being yanked by casey is one thing that can be held constant.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    except the pacers were missing their franchise player, and promptly got beat by charlotte the night after.

    as for the nets, they sure have fire power up front to make up for scrubs like gerald wallace, joe johnson, and deron williams, yeah there was no way the raps could've contained stars like brook lopez and humphries. (end sarcasM)
    I'm still not convinced that you're not just trolling, but hey, maybe you're just super negative, willfully ignorant, or perhaps only pessimistic. Both Indiana and Brooklyn are better teams than the raps, period (playoff locks). And we were in a position to win both games. Sure losing sucks, and the lack of execution in crunch time sucks, but that is a natural growing pain of getting better.

    On the bright side: This is clearly a much better team than last year. V. Is getting rebounds we weren't getting last year. Lowry is a sick pg. Derozan is stronger and looks better, giving us a decent backcourt , which incidently matched up well against one of the best in the league last night. Landry, looks nervous so far but gives us serviceable minutes, and played good d on jj, bargs was efficient on O, but can obviously get better, missed big, important shots, that he should make. And he simply has to be pulling down 6-8 boards a game, under 5 he should be embarrassed as a man. But his d is much better. We're long and athletic at the 4 spot, that depth is a plus for us, even hands of stone ed has clearly improved his jump shot. The team also seems to have a good attitude and a willingness to work for one another. And we have an excellent coach, with a full season to work with a much better and deeper team than last year.

    Perhaps you might need to lower your expectations? If this team makes the playoffs that is an unmitigated success, and big step up. If they finish with 35-38 wins and miss, still a step in the right direction. This team is young and will get better. Vs. Brooklyn, who we saw last night. That is who they are going to be. A team that could barely beat us, at home. Little hope to get better organically.

    Other stuff: Ross could become a player that contributes meaningfully this season. In any event I think it is good for his development to be eased in to the lineup and to earn his minutes. Do we develop him as a 3 after the commitment to dd? In any event, he's an asset.

    Calderon still has value. To this team and perhaps others at the trade deadline. Our depth allows us to make a trade if the right trade is out there to improve the team.

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    Quote Usagi_yo_Jimbo wrote: View Post
    Wow. How bout you give them at least 10 games to play. And once theres 72 games left in the season THEN you can start worrying. Relax, im sure they'll figure it out sooner rather than later.
    I was thinking more like 30 games. The first 22 games are going to be a bitch. If things are still going bad, then I'll hit my personal alarm button.

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    Agreed.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    1) I think casey is doing it to build chemistry between our "best players" (on paper at least), I have no idea if he will stagger the talent (outside of foul trouble), but he may change who he plays together.

    3)I don't think we would be doing ross any favours starting him at SF when he can be outmuscled by 100% of the competition at that position lol.

    I also think it would look incredibly stupid on the organization to start him over derozan who we just gave a huge contract to. If that is what you were suggesting.

    what is wrong with giving ross minutes behind derozan? Derozan screwing up and being yanked by casey is one thing that can be held constant.
    No .. not start him ahead of DD (note the rest of my post talks about DD being someone who needs to be on the court a LOT.) He should (eventually) start ahead of Fields .. who by all acounts sucks and is truely collateral damage of the Nash pursuit.

    I agree that I wouldnt do it right away (and Fields, while he cant score appears to be a serviceable rebounder / hustle guy) .. but once he gets his sea legs, T Ross should start beside DD. DD the slasher, Ross the spot up shooter

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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    No .. not start him ahead of DD (note the rest of my post talks about DD being someone who needs to be on the court a LOT.) He should (eventually) start ahead of Fields .. who by all acounts sucks and is truely collateral damage of the Nash pursuit.

    I agree that I wouldnt do it right away (and Fields, while he cant score appears to be a serviceable rebounder / hustle guy) .. but once he gets his sea legs, T Ross should start beside DD. DD the slasher, Ross the spot up shooter
    can anyone else help me out here? This guy is suggesting that ross should start at the 3 where he will be giving up 30,40,50 lbs every night and be posted up on by the likes of (wallace,melo,artest,lebron,j smith, Iguodala,etc.) but it's okay b/c he compliments DD very well. you've gotta be shitting me.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    can anyone else help me out here? This guy is suggesting that ross should start at the 3 where he will be giving up 30,40,50 lbs every night and be posted up on by the likes of (wallace,melo,artest,lebron,j smith, Iguodala,etc.) but it's okay b/c he compliments DD very well. you've gotta be shitting me.
    Says the guy who thinks we should start d-leaguer AA (who is only marginally bigger than T Ross anyways). We dont have a "big" 3, other than LK, so your point is moot, because everyone from AA, LF, DD struggle guarding the guys you mentioned (half of whom play 4 a lot of the time anyways). If our goal is to stop these guys with our three man - we are dead before we started. Also, whos to say that DD cant guard the bigger of the 2/3 combo on the court and Ross guard the other?

    Your suggestion that AA and LF are somehow big bulky "3s", yet DD and T Ross are "2"s is a joke .. these guys are all essentially interchangeable .. all in the 6'6-6'7 range and while T Ross is about 200 lbs, the others are in 215-220 range. Pretty similar in the grand scheme of things size wise.

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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Says the guy who thinks we should start d-leaguer AA (who is only marginally bigger than T Ross anyways). We dont have a "big" 3, other than LK, so your point is moot, because everyone from AA, LF, DD struggle guarding the guys you mentioned (half of whom play 4 a lot of the time anyways). If our goal is to stop these guys with our three man - we are dead before we started. Also, whos to say that DD cant guard the bigger of the 2/3 combo on the court and Ross guard the other?

    Your suggestion that AA and LF are somehow big bulky "3s", yet DD and T Ross are "2"s is a joke .. these guys are all essentially interchangeable .. all in the 6'6-6'7 range and while T Ross is about 200 lbs, the others are in 215-220 range. Pretty similar in the grand scheme of things size wise.
    Based on listed heights and weights, LF is an inch taller and 15 pounds heavier than Ross, while AA is same height, with 25 lbs of additional man (not college boy) muscle. Not the same at all. T Ross holds a great deal of promise, but just like DD needed it, he needs to spend some time in the weight room and put on some muscle before he goes against any starting SF in this men's league.

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    The line-up's fine. Casey's substitution pattern is probably at fault here. There's some late game stuff that he's not calling properly. Fields isn't going to the bench as he is another rebounding wing out there. He needs to be there because of DD and AB7's inability to rebound the ball. He ain't going to the bench anytime soon. Plus, he's not paid to be a bench player.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Based on listed heights and weights, LF is an inch taller and 15 pounds heavier than Ross, while AA is same height, with 25 lbs of additional man (not college boy) muscle. Not the same at all. T Ross holds a great deal of promise, but just like DD needed it, he needs to spend some time in the weight room and put on some muscle before he goes against any starting SF in this men's league.
    And DD is basically the same as those other two (DD - 6'7, 216 lbs, Fields 6'7 215), so put DD on the bigger guy .. whats wrong with that?

    People get all caught up in SG/SF - they are basically the same position. The key is to have guys that counter balance each other - and Fields and DD dont, cause neither can shoot. This is a HUGE problem.

    Its at least encouraging to hear you two suggest your logic, cause maybe it gives a bit of a glimspe into wtf Casey is thinking.

    Ross is a stud, who you just spent your #8 pick on in a loaded draft (ahead of Drummond and others). AA is a d-leaguer and LF was NYK's 8th man. If you want this team to go anywhere .. play Ross.

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    I think if the team is still have trouble at the 3 and 4, by the 25-30 game mark, we need a shakeup. I'm starting to think with Lowry and DD being our best weapons so far, we can't have a volume shootin' no reboundin' PF. Even with Bargs being one of our best players. And with Lowry and Derozan's athleticism, we need a shooter on the wing, whether it's doing a small trade for J-Rich or Dorell Wright, or orchestrating a big one for Rudy Gay, we need a shooter.

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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    And DD is basically the same as those other two (DD - 6'7, 216 lbs, Fields 6'7 215), so put DD on the bigger guy .. whats wrong with that?

    People get all caught up in SG/SF - they are basically the same position. The key is to have guys that counter balance each other - and Fields and DD dont, cause neither can shoot. This is a HUGE problem.

    Its at least encouraging to hear you two suggest your logic, cause maybe it gives a bit of a glimspe into wtf Casey is thinking.

    Ross is a stud, who you just spent your #8 pick on in a loaded draft (ahead of Drummond and others). AA is a d-leaguer and LF was NYK's 8th man. If you want this team to go anywhere .. play Ross.
    I would love to see that as well, there is no denying the players compliment each other well. But do you think the raptors would even consider it?

    And did you see derozan get backed down by wallace yesterday? It was downright scary, the same thing is going to happen to ross X2.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    I would love to see that as well, there is no denying the players compliment each other well. But do you think the raptors would even consider it?

    And did you see derozan get backed down by wallace yesterday? It was downright scary, the same thing is going to happen to ross X2.
    I sure as hell hope so - and Casey basically suggested it at the oringal press conference when asked if Ross would "replace" Demar, he said no, that they would play lots together and noted DD can play the 3.

    Im obviously fine with T Ross getting minutes at the backup 2 also - but one way or the other, the kid needs some run to show what hes got ..

    And yes, Wallace is probably the strongest 3 in the league .. but ALL of our guys struggle with someone with that much size (outside of maybe LK).
    Last edited by mountio; Sun Nov 4th, 2012 at 03:26 PM.

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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    I sure as hell hope so - and Casey basically suggested it at the oringal press conference when asked if Ross would "replace" Demar, he said no, that they would play lots together and noted DD can play the 3.

    Im obviously fine with T Ross getting minutes at the backup 2 also - but one way or the other, the kid needs some run to show what hes got ..

    And yes, Wallace is probably the strongest 3 in the league .. but ALL of our guys struggle with someone with that much size (outside of maybe LK).
    if LK was in mid season form I think a line-up of

    lowry
    derozan
    LK
    ED
    Val

    is the best we could hope for.

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