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Thread: Was 2011-12 all for naught?

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Was 2011-12 all for naught?

    A lot of optimism was created with the change in style of play and commitment to defense instilled by Dwane Casey last year. Unfortunately this season, the culture change seems to have been forgotten and the Raps are right back to the same door mat ways of the last 5 years..... sadly.

    Everyone is well aware the season is only 6 games in however there are some startling trends early.

    2010-11:

    opp ppg: 105.4 (26th in league)
    defensive rating: 112.7 (30th)
    pace: 93.0 (10th)
    opp fg%: 48.2% (29th)
    opp true shooting%: 56.6% (29th)
    defensive rebound rate: 71.98 (25th)
    opp points in the paint: 42.8 (30th)


    2011-12:

    opp ppg: 94.0 (9th in league)
    defensive rating: 104.5 (14th in league)
    pace: 89.3 (25th in league)
    opp fg%: 43.5% (tied for 6th)
    opp true shooting%: 52.4% (11th)
    defensive rebound rate: 75.4 (3rd)
    opp points in the paint: 37.6 (17th)


    2012-13:

    opp ppg: 98.8 (22nd)
    defensive rating: 106 (25th)
    pace: 93.3 (13th)
    opp fg%: 46.5% (24th)
    opp true shooting%: 55.8% (26th)
    defensive rebound rate: 73.6 (17th)
    opp points in the paint: 40.2 (21st)


    Clearly the culture change has been forgotten. Excuses of new players, new starters, lack of chemistry, time needed, blah blah blah, etc. are, quite frankly, WEAK. Last year was a strike shortened season with numerous new players and a new coach yet they managed to deliver.

    The statistic that stands out for me is the opponent field goal percentage. Last season 9 of the top 10 teams in this stat were playoff teams - the exception of course was Toronto.

    The last few days I've been avoiding this site because it is too negative for me. While this thread is certainly negative in nature, I hope it is at least constructive.

    I hope Casey quickly remembers what made last year successful in spite of a 23 and 43 record. It is time to remove the new found emphasis of scoring more points than the opponent and go back to focusing on giving up less points than the opponent.

    Just my 2 cents. I am beyond frustrated and disappointed in the season thus far. I know, I know, it is only 6 games but is a disturbing 6 games.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Nov 11th, 2012 at 05:15 PM.
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    Raptors Republic Starter theycallmeZZ's Avatar
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    I think the word you're thinking of in the title is "naught"
    TORONTOOOOOO RAPTORSSSSSS

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    A lot of optimism was created with the change in style of play and commitment to defense instilled by Dwane Casey last year. Unfortunately this season, the culture change seems to have been forgotten and the Raps are right back to the same door mat ways of the last 5 years..... sadly.

    Everyone is well aware the season is only 6 games in however there are some startling trends early.

    2010-11:

    opp ppg: 105.4 (26th in league)
    defensive rating: 112.7 (30th)
    pace: 93.0 (10th)
    opp fg%: 48.2% (29th)
    opp true shooting%: 56.6% (29th)
    defensive rebound rate: 71.98 (25th)
    opp points in the paint: 42.8 (30th)


    2011-12:

    opp ppg: 94.0 (9th in league)
    defensive rating: 104.5 (14th in league)
    pace: 89.3 (25th in league)
    opp fg%: 43.5% (tied for 6th)
    opp true shooting%: 52.4% (11th)
    defensive rebound rate: 75.4 (3rd)
    opp points in the paint: 37.6 (17th)


    2012-13:

    opp ppg: 98.8 (22nd)
    defensive rating: 106 (25th)
    pace: 93.3 (13th)
    opp fg%: 46.5% (24th)
    opp true shooting%: 55.8% (26th)
    defensive rebound rate: 73.6 (17th)
    opp points in the paint: 40.2 (21st)


    Clearly the culture change has been forgotten. Excuses of new players, new starters, lack of chemistry, time needed, blah blah blah, etc. are, quite frankly, WEAK. Last year was a strike shortened season with numerous new players and a new coach yet they managed to deliver.

    The statistic that stands out for me is the opponent field goal percentage. Last season 9 of the top 10 teams in this stat were playoff teams - the exception of course was Toronto.

    The last few days I've been avoiding this site because it is too negative for me. While this thread is certainly negative in nature, I hope it is at least constructive.

    I hope Casey quickly remembers what made last year successful in spite of a 23 and 43 record. It is time to remove the new found emphasis of scoring more points than the opponent and go back to focusing on giving up less points than the opponent.

    Just my 2 cents. I am beyond frustrated and disappointed in the season thus far. I know, I know, it is only 6 games but is a disturbing 6 games.
    damn (no need for racial slurs), you sound depressed. Won't lie it's a little funny, who cares it's just a basketball team. I want to personally thank the management/coaching for putting a piss-poor pathetic sorry excuse for a team on the court night after night, and completely turning me off basketball and consequently saving my time.

    but to answer your question the contrast in attention to detail is startling. What makes it even more maddening is playing like this last year and coasting through games would have actually meant something, b/c of the huge talent pool in the 2012 draft. Casey is human just like all of us, and he might be going through a rough patch in his life right now (if that's the case he needs to be fired), or maybe he is being told who to hold accountable and who not by higher management........maybe stop watching until there is a trade. I haven't watched more than a quarter the last 2 games.....
    Last edited by Dr. James Naismith; Sun Nov 11th, 2012 at 08:12 PM. Reason: Racial slur

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    What I'm sensing is confusion. An attempt at focusing on offence is causing the team to forget about defence and in the process even do a terrible job offensively. I don't know if the fast paced offence they are trying to implement is Casey's or BC influenced. The later is very possible as most of his(BC) teams were the fast paced kind. To add to the woes, they've got a bunch of new players who were not part of the 'culture change' last year. I think the solution to the problem is re-implement the defensive culture change and let offence take care of itself and when everyone is in sync defensively, focus on offence which should be strictly 'Casey's'.
    Last edited by Eric Akshinthala; Sun Nov 11th, 2012 at 05:48 PM.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  5. #5
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    What I'm sensing is confusion. An attempt at focusing on offence is causing the team to forget about defence and in the process even do a terrible job offensively. I don't know if the fast paced offence they are trying to implement is Casey's or BC influenced. The later is very possible as most of his(BC) teams were the fast paced kind. To add to the woes, they've got a bunch of new players who were not part of the 'culture change' last year. I think the solution to the problem is re-implement the defensive culture change and let offence take care of itself and when everyone is in sync defensively, focus on offence which should be strictly 'Casey's'.
    This. Is. The. Answer.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    I think the pace is a huge deal.

    Notice how much slower we played last year. If we slowed it down, we can be a much better defensive team (and imo, we WILL)

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    It definitely has not been a great start. We do need see a change of pace and preferrably some more ball movement. Casey can get them back on track defensively I hope

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    This team isn't good enough offensively to try to be a great offensive team. They need to focus on defense, and DEFEND better than their opponents, not run the score like the Warriors and hope they have more points

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    This team isn't good enough offensively to try to be a great offensive team. They need to focus on defense, and DEFEND better than their opponents, not run the score like the Warriors and hope they have more points
    This sums it all up. Casey has changed his coaching strategies to be a better offensive team, but frankly, we lose a lot more than we get with the defense to offense switch. Take that 7-32 quarter from last game. If the Raps put up 7, but only give up 22 in the quarter, we have a better chance at winning the game. That is the beauty of defense, it takes the pressure off of poor offense. The offense would even play better with a sturdy defense behind it.

    Casey needs to figure things out for this team to win.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Yes. The last two seasons were wasted. In what should have been rebuilding years, management preferred to focus on developing mediocre players and busy bodying around on pointless transactions. They have one asset to show for the last two years. One.

    Then, rather than continue a rebuild or go all-in, they decided to trade for Lowry. Good player, no help. But most people here seemed down with this half-ass plan, so, whatever. I've hung around through the last 9 years of futility. What's another nine?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    I think the pace is a huge deal.

    Notice how much slower we played last year. If we slowed it down, we can be a much better defensive team (and imo, we WILL)
    Great. Let's play like the 90s Knicks. Oh wait, it's 2012.

  12. #12
    Raptors Republic Rookie Afro_Daddy's Avatar
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    i honestly blame the SF position, its such a glaring hole i sorta miss james johnson.. just think the difference it would make if we had a SF the other team actually had to guard.. AB's shitty games certainly didnt help but come on we need more. wouldn't change the defensive stats but maybe we have a few more wins and not be in "panic mode".. not after 6 games anyways
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Funny that you looked into all this because I was doing the same from a bit of a different perspective. It may give you some optimism. It may leave you just as depressed. A game is made up of ebbs and flows and so is a season. You may win 7 games one month but, if you're an average team, you know those seven losses are going to come when the schedule turns an hands you road games and western teams. So instead of looking at the first six games as they relate to last season, look how they relate to how we fared against these teams last year. Not statistically sound but maybe it passes the "eye test". With one change (can't really compare this years nets to last years so I subbed in Orlando...likely a similarly successful team this year as Orlando was last year).

    What was our record? 2-10 (hmmm...that .166 winning percentage sounds familiar). Looking at just points (please look into more stats if anyone has the time) we scored enough to rank 2nd last (20th this year) and we gave up enough points to be 14th best (now 22nd). So the sky isn't completely falling. We haven't lost our way on D, we've just played better teams. Our offense has jumped in the right direction. Now the cynic may say "hurray, we're just as good as the terrible team we were last year". By why shouldn't we be yet? We have a brand new awesome point guard who has missed a third of our games. We have a new centre who looks like he will be great but that's still to come. I've said it before. We're not a good team. But we're not as bad as it looks right now.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    Funny that you looked into all this because I was doing the same from a bit of a different perspective. It may give you some optimism. It may leave you just as depressed. A game is made up of ebbs and flows and so is a season. You may win 7 games one month but, if you're an average team, you know those seven losses are going to come when the schedule turns an hands you road games and western teams. So instead of looking at the first six games as they relate to last season, look how they relate to how we fared against these teams last year. Not statistically sound but maybe it passes the "eye test". With one change (can't really compare this years nets to last years so I subbed in Orlando...likely a similarly successful team this year as Orlando was last year).

    What was our record? 2-10 (hmmm...that .166 winning percentage sounds familiar). Looking at just points (please look into more stats if anyone has the time) we scored enough to rank 2nd last (20th this year) and we gave up enough points to be 14th best (now 22nd). So the sky isn't completely falling. We haven't lost our way on D, we've just played better teams. Our offense has jumped in the right direction. Now the cynic may say "hurray, we're just as good as the terrible team we were last year". By why shouldn't we be yet? We have a brand new awesome point guard who has missed a third of our games. We have a new centre who looks like he will be great but that's still to come. I've said it before. We're not a good team. But we're not as bad as it looks right now.
    I definitely agree with the bold.

    The problem, in my opinion, is the improvements of last season appear to be lost. My post isn't about the win/loss record. The Raptors could easily be 4-3 or 3-3. The issue is the style of play and the total collapse in defensive awareness, fundamentals, and pride that was supposedly instilled in the year of the 'culture change'.

    The Raptors are not playing the same style of ball. It might be slower, it might be more of a grind it out approach, and it might be less glamorous but I would take that style of play over the bottom third of the league in defensive stats quoted in the original post.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    I've said it before and I'll say it now, you cannot simply say "let's play fast" if you don't have the horses. Casey is not a fast paced coach. AB, DD, LF, and JV are not out on the break open court players. Kyle might be but he also excels in the half court. Slow it down, make the opponent earn EVERYTHING and the offence will take care of itself. Raps had zero 3pt shooting this year, now they have a couple of options. Go back to last years style and start winning. At least last year I didn't have to watch scrubs skip down the lane with impunity.

    This smells like BCo and it stinks. I've long been a defender of his but this year has left me scratching my head. Casey must b
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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    I love Coach Casey, for he is a great coach. Proven, because he turned a talentless team into a great defensive team.

    Now, everything to do with pace and the coaching strategies/management, is absolutely correct. Fast paced, doesn't always mean a better offensive team. This team isn't built to run. Individually you've got guys that can get out on the open court (Amir, JV, Derozan, Lowry), but overall, this team is better suited with a half-court system.
    Initiate the offense through Andrea, Derozan, or guys of that inside. Get some ball movement, get some pick-and-rolls, that way, defensively we aren't in danger in terms of transitions (where we are just garbage.)

    Also, coach Casey has overrated the depth of this team. Sure, you have guys at every position that can push one another, and really all the same level of talent, how is that level of talent? I mean, as a whole, this team could win 20-25 games SORELY based on talent. Add in the defensive principles, and grind it out mentality, we are an improved club.

    Coach Casey has to realize, implementing a 9-man rotation, playing slower, and emphasizing the defense, NOT the offense, will make this team better throughout the whole duration of the game. Too much unbalanced/consistent showings. 1 great quarter, 1 shit quarter, and 2 average quarters. Or 3 solid quarters, 1 total lost quarter. It needs to be 4 GOOD quarters. We can't be a "That team is a '2nd half team' type mentality/recognition."

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    At least I can say I've had the same negativity the whole time.

    I think you guys need to give Casey more credit. It's not like he's forgotten what he has to do or how to do it in just one season.

    This team is just very young and very different from last year and it'll take time to adjust. I've always agreed that talent is better this year than last but let's not kid ourselves and think that the youth is suddenly going to transform into savvy veterans.
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    Matt, I haven't looked them up, but I suspect those percentages change a lot if you don't include the games without Lowry. Rebound % and field goal % and opp points in particular. I suspect true shooting % as well. The team, as constructed, in terms of style of play, rotations etc. is constructed incorporating Lowry. I believe that Casey and BC feel JV is capable of emerging much earlier than any of us would have expected and have elected to insert him from day one to bring his growth along a little faster. That accounts for the points in the paint % to some extent.

    Most people here was pretty satisfied in the games that include Lowry, even though two of them were loses. I think a lot changes when he comes back. I also think Casey gets a grip on the team within the next week or two.

    As you say, it's only 6 games in and has been disappointing, especially after the pre-season, but I believe that they can right the ship.

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    3 new starters is going to take time to get used to one another. The team personnel is completely different from lat year so lets wait a few games before losing our minds. Very frustrating basketball is being played but I expected a learning curve and can't see how anyone else wouldn't have.

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    1. The team seems to have lost focus of the 'pound the rock' philsophy of defense-first basketball.

    2. Too much 'me first' offense. I think this is partly because of the fast-paced 'with the flow' offense that DC has installed this season and partly due to the lack of talent on the team. I miss the days of team oriented offense with set half-court plays, when 2-4 players would touch the ball as it would swing around from one corner to the other (usually starting down low either from a post-up or dribble penetration), often ending with a corner 3 ball from Parker.

    3. Too many players playing. As easy as it would be to blame DC for going too deep into his bench, which significantly hampers the team's ability to develop on-court chemistry, I think that would be unfair. Injuries, lack of talent and inconsistent play have all forced his hand. I don't think he goes 10-12 men deep because he wants to, I think he's just trying to find the players (and combination of players) each game, who are able to give him quality minutes. Yes we are a deep team, but it's a team team of mostly 2nd unit quality players.

    4. The SF position is a glaring weakness (and one of the most obvious causes of point #3 being an issue). With the black hole at SF and the horrendous 3pt shooting from the wings, it becomes so easy for oppoents to double-team Bargnani and prevent easy drives for DeRozan & Lowry. Other teams clog the paint and force the Raptors to beat them from outside, which is definitely a weakness for this team (both starters and 2nd unit).


    I agree that it's not all 'doom and gloom' for this Raptors team. I think they need to refocus on defense and go with a more simplified team-first offense. Individual players need to step up and be held accountable, but that still won't address the lack of talent on this team. So many Toronto fans love their 'lunch pail' type hardnosed players, but then wonder why the team lacks the finesse skills required to actually win. Any good team has a balance, which is what this Raptors group is lacking. Landing a young, legitimately skilled SF would go a long way towards addressing most, if not all 4 of these problems.

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