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Thread: BC's "stacking" principle

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Default BC's "stacking" principle

    TORONTO — For the sake of this hypothetical query, pretend Ed Davis was a swingman — a small forward rather than a power forward, with the skill set for that position and with production similar to what he has provided the Toronto Raptors so far.

    If that were the reality, how often would Davis be playing?

    It is impossible to answer that question, since it only exists in the reality of an alternate dimension. It is certain, though, that he would be earning more floor time than he is now. Davis is playing just 13:30 per night, including a combined nine minutes in Toronto’s last two games.

    Head coach Dwane Casey would say the amount Davis plays is entirely up to him.

    “I asked him a while ago: I said, ‘Has anybody seen Ed Davis?’ He played well [last Sunday against] Minnesota. He was a big-time factor, he and Amir [Johnson],” Casey said. “He changed the game against Minnesota. Since then, I don’t know. He hasn’t been the same.”

    That might be what Casey has seen, but it does not seem entirely fair to Davis. The main reason Davis has struggled to find minutes is because of the Raptors’ roster composition.


    Andrea Bargnani is one of the few Raptors capable of scoring in bulk. Jonas Valanciunas is one of the Raptors’ great hopes, a potential rebounding and defensive demon. Johnson is the team’s best interior defender, a particularly good match for Bargnani when factoring in the latter’s defensive and rebounding shortcomings. So no matter how well Davis has played — and, frankly, the sample size is too small to come to a meaningful conclusion — he will always be less of a priority for Casey than the other three players.

    This is a problem with Bryan Colangelo’s “stacking principle” — the practice of gathering talented players who play the same position. Certainly, you want to collect the most talented players possible. But if one of those players ends up losing playing time in a minutes crunch, he becomes less valuable as an asset.

    When you get in the game, you’ve got to make your minutes count and not count your minutes
    The fact that the league is generally heading in a smaller direction makes it tougher for the Raptors to have the glut up front.
    The Raptors’ opponent on Monday, the Utah Jazz, are in a similar position: They have established big men Al Jefferson and Paul Millsap to go along with prospects Derrick Favors and Enes Kanter.

    Kanter, the third-overall pick in the 2011 draft, is in the same position in Utah as Davis is in Toronto: Through seven games, he is playing fewer than 15 minutes per night.

    “I’ve just got to play better when I’m out there,” said Davis, who is averaging 4.8 points and 4.0 rebounds per game in his limited minutes.

    “When you get in the game,” Casey said, “you’ve got to make your minutes count and not count your minutes.”

    Of course, with injuries to Landry Fields and Alan Anderson, the Raptors, with six losses in their first seven games, would give Davis a long leash if he were a small forward. But in an area where they have depth, Davis does not get the benefit of the doubt.

    It is just another factor in the Raptors’ slow start: Even the injuries are happening to the wrong guys.

    http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...efine-himself/


    Fantastic article by Koreen. Totally agree with it.
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    The stacking principle is fine if you trade the excess players to fill positions of need.

    Not sure why one of Davis or Amir haven't been traded yet.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Im kinda getting tired of the all the philosophical BS that DC is throwing out there.

    They need wins, not literary awards.

    Now he's at it again with Davis, “you’ve got to make your minutes count and not count your minutes.”
    Well, you've got to get the minutes to make your minutes count. 5 mins and 3 mins aint gonna cut it.

    JV is averaging 20min a game, and Ross, 9. Your foundations are playing less minutes than your D-Leaguer.

    I'd rather have the team lose going through growing pains rather than lose without any consolation.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Im kinda getting tired of the all the philosophical BS that DC is throwing out there.

    They need wins, not literary awards.

    Now he's at it again with Davis, “you’ve got to make your minutes count and not count your minutes.”
    Well, you've got to get the minutes to make your minutes count. 5 mins and 3 mins aint gonna cut it.

    JV is averaging 20min a game, and Ross, 9. Your foundations are playing less minutes than your D-Leaguer.

    I'd rather have the team lose going through growing pains rather than lose without any consolation.
    Agreed. Unless this team is poised for a deep playoff run - pause for laughter - I see absolutely no reason why guys like Anderson & McGuire are getting any playing time at all. It's just like last year; why not feed playing time to the players you're trying to develop, as opposed to players that are unlikely to be on your team (or possibly even in the NBA) next season? I just don't get it.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Agreed. Unless this team is poised for a deep playoff run - pause for laughter - I see absolutely no reason why guys like Anderson & McGuire are getting any playing time at all. It's just like last year; why not feed playing time to the players you're trying to develop, as opposed to players that are unlikely to be on your team (or possibly even in the NBA) next season? I just don't get it.
    I agree, but putting out all the young players would be the same as BC back tracking on any statements he made about this season being a building year and not a re-building year. And that is a hard thing to explain to fans just 6 games into the season.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Agreed. Unless this team is poised for a deep playoff run - pause for laughter - I see absolutely no reason why guys like Anderson & McGuire are getting any playing time at all. It's just like last year; why not feed playing time to the players you're trying to develop, as opposed to players that are unlikely to be on your team (or possibly even in the NBA) next season? I just don't get it.
    I was going to make up an excuse like i did in the past, by saying maybe these young guys are not putting effort in practice, or not fully buying into the system, but IMO, its a cause and effect thing. You dont give them minutes, they're not going to be thrilled to be there. Its just human nature. If we are not going to get burn, why pick me in 8th or why pull me from being a euro sensation? I dont get it either.

    I think what also is coming to light is that DC is a genius on the defensive end, but a bonehead in the offensive end. We've all been wondering why these guys keeping taking long two's and threes and jumpshots, well, is it maybe because the offensive sets are not working?
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Mon Nov 12th, 2012 at 02:12 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Default I Cant Stand DC

    The more the season progresses....the more i cant stand DC..... he just seems lost out there and his player rotations are not even NBA quality (maybe because he doesnt have much NBA quality players - thanks to Bryan No Clue-angelo). I agree he used to be good defensively (with the right players)...but he had a hand in shipping off one of his better defensive players in JJ.....now he's paying the price. I wonder if he wishes he had JJ instead of Fields.....at least JJ could handle the ball and make a layup!! ***

    only DUMB coaches forget that you need the personnel to run a good system....

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    The more the season progresses....the more i cant stand DC..... he just seems lost out there and his player rotations are not even NBA quality (maybe because he doesnt have much NBA quality players - thanks to Bryan No Clue-angelo). I agree he used to be good defensively (with the right players)...but he had a hand in shipping off one of his better defensive players in JJ.....now he's paying the price. I wonder if he wishes he had JJ instead of Fields.....at least JJ could handle the ball and make a layup!! ***

    only DUMB coaches forget that you need the personnel to run a good system....
    hahahaa this actually made me laugh but its true nonetheless.

    JJ actually hid DD defensive deficiencies

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    I have no special affinity for Ed Davis but, in general, player usage has been a big problem for this team for years. Too many undeserving veterans eating up minutes. As I said in another thread, the last 2 seasons were wasted trying to develop middling players (Bargnani, Derozan) or guys who were just flyers (Bayless, James Johnson, etc.).

    Other than Valanciunas, this team has nothing to show for the past two years. Worse, a lottery pick like Davis has been under-utilized and marginilized. They want to keep assets, they just don't know how to use them.

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    The lack of proper roster management is the thing that drives me craziest about BCs tenure. If you took an objective look at the roster and the state of the league, it's pretty obvious that the team won't be competing for anything meaningful in the near future. That doesn't seem to be stopping BC from running the team with his blinders on though.

    If it were me and I had job secuirty, I'd blow it all up. Bargs, Calderon and Lowry are great contracts to use in trading for picks (and I'm assuming here that Lowry wouldn't resign if you blew the team up, but if he wanted to stay then obviously lock him up). Focus on playing JV, DD, Ross and Davis as much as possible, wait for Amir and Fields' contracts to turn into expiring bargaining chips, try to load up on 2014 lottery picks. Either some of the youth pans out or you turn them into stars that other teams can't afford, a la James Harden.

    Unfortunately BC doesn't have that kind of job security, so it ain't gonna happen. But it should. While I love Lowry, the team sin't going to contend for anything while he's their best player. And they're sure as hell not going to compete with Bargs as the first option on offense. If the team is still getting their asses handed to them mid-season, it would be the perfect time to blow it up. Too bad it's not going to happen.

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    And with all those bigs, Aaron Grey comes into the game at the end vs. Utah and we get killed on the high screen because he's so slow he not only can't hedge on Mo, he screened his own man. I felt like Grey coming in lost us the game, and that's with Val and Davis rotting on the bench.

    Blah.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Superchunk wrote: View Post
    And with all those bigs, Aaron Grey comes into the game at the end vs. Utah and we get killed on the high screen because he's so slow he not only can't hedge on Mo, he screened his own man. I felt like Grey coming in lost us the game, and that's with Val and Davis rotting on the bench.

    Blah.
    And Dom "Mr Stopper" McGuire was a team worst -10 in 33 minutes, while Ross saw just 3 minutes (and was 2nd best on team at +2).

    Utah played a triple overtime game using just 9 players, in a tight rotation on a team with solid chemistry. DC trotted out 12 players, making some highly questionable substitutions. Between injuries and DC's roster management, it's no wonder the young guys are not developing (and look hesitant, in Ross's case), the team seems to have no chemistry and the offense looks utterly lost.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    And Dom "Mr Stopper" McGuire was a team worst -10 in 33 minutes, while Ross saw just 3 minutes (and was 2nd best on team at +2).

    Utah played a triple overtime game using just 9 players, in a tight rotation on a team with solid chemistry. DC trotted out 12 players, making some highly questionable substitutions. Between injuries and DC's roster management, it's no wonder the young guys are not developing (and look hesitant, in Ross's case), the team seems to have no chemistry and the offense looks utterly lost.
    I cant post the source, but i read an article on DC that apparently he does not like playing rooks and sophs, and at one point he said that he recommended to BC that getting more veterans on the team would be a good idea. Also, i think he has an affinity for D-Leaguers and scrubs who made it in the big leagues, i.e. Lucas, McGuire and AA because he feels for the underdogs and he himself had to scrap and claw his way to the top. He probably feels that those guys deserve more minutes because they worked their way to get there, while Ross and JV were pretty much groomed
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Nov 13th, 2012 at 11:33 AM.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    I cant post the source, but i read an article on DC that apparently he does not like playing rooks and sophs, and at one point he said that he recommended to BC that getting more veterans on the team would be a good idea. Also, i think he has an affinity for D-Leaguers and scrubs who made it in the big leagues, i.e. Lucas, McGuire and AA because he feels for the underdogs and he himself had to scrap and claw his way to the top. He probably feels that those guys deserve more minutes because they worked their way to get there, while Ross and JV were pretty much groomed
    Wowsers, seriously?? I would love to see a basketball team go to a football style coaching staff, where there's a head coach and both offensive/defensive coordinators. DC seems like he'd be a fantastic defensive coordinator, but frankly I don't think he's a top-tier head coach. His roster management, player development and substitution patterns have been terrible so far this season, to the point that I think he either directly or indirectly (ie: not giving DeRozna any rest during regulation, to the point that he was winded and his shooting tanked in overtime) cost this team a couple wins already.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    I cant post the source, but i read an article on DC that apparently he does not like playing rooks and sophs, and at one point he said that he recommended to BC that getting more veterans on the team would be a good idea. Also, i think he has an affinity for D-Leaguers and scrubs who made it in the big leagues, i.e. Lucas, McGuire and AA because he feels for the underdogs and he himself had to scrap and claw his way to the top. He probably feels that those guys deserve more minutes because they worked their way to get there, while Ross and JV were pretty much groomed
    I can't comment on the second part (i.e. D-League guys) but the first sentence describes every single coach in the history of everything.

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