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Time to end the Bargnani experiment

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  • #31
    I honestly think Management and Coaches expect more than just scoring from Bargnani. No concrete evidence to support my claim, but a hunch based on some of Casey's past quotes regarding "2 rebounds per quarter", etc.

    Also, there's the youth factor to consider when comparing DeRozan to Bargnani. DeRozan in his 4th year, is steadily showing yearly improvement. We can't really say the same for Bargnani.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Tue Nov 13, 2012, 05:28 PM.

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    • #32
      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
      I absolutely agree with you about inherent positional expectations. However, in that case, you know going in that a guy like Bargnani is likely never going to fill those positional expectations, so you need to either somewhat adjust expectations for him or balance them with the expectations of the entire 5-man starting unit. It's just like wing players who are known more for their defensive prowess (ie: Tony Allen on Memphis) - it wouldn't be fair to judge him based on the top flight scoring expected out of your wings, because that's not what he brings to their starting 5 lineup.

      If you want to go with traditional players at traditional positions with traditional expectations, then Bargnani will always 'fail' and will never earn a place on a team you cheer for. And that's a fair opinion.

      My comparison between Bargnani and DeRozan was based on the fact that they are expected (by management and coaching staff) to provide scoring. Yet when comparing comprable stat lines just 1 game removed from one another (when adjusted to a standardized per minute average), it's clear that Bargnani is widely regarded as an epic failure, while DeRozan is being heralded as a budding superstar. For 2 players who should be evaulated with the same expectations - score big and score efficiently - I just don't see that being the case, which frustrates me.
      I agree entirely, and ive said before, if you as a Raptors fan expects Bargnani to be a "decent" rebounder or an amazing defender, then youre shitting on the wrong tree, so to speak. Bargnani, throughout his career, has never had those qualities. IMO, he was drafted with the notion that he will someday be an elite scorer, which i think he can still become, but never a complete player.

      But what i have come to realize is that for the team to be successful by the looks of how management is structuring the team, Bargnani is being put in a situation where he HAS to rebound and defend. And thats whats frustrating the fans. If the Raptors put Bargnani in a situation where all he needs to do is score, then the fans will be happy towards him. I think a great example is Jamal Crawford. When somebody mentions Jamal Crawford, what immediately comes to mind? Scoring. Its seldom mentioned that he's averaging 1.9 asts per game, or 1.0 rebounds or .2 stls. Nobody really pays attention to that because his role is to score. Every team would love to have a Jamal Crawford because he will win you the game with the last second shot. Nobody's saying he's a guard so he should get 10asts per night. Its because, IMO, the teams that he's been in, are coming in with the mentality that this guy is only good for scoring, so we have to live with that. I think Lowry is a good compliment to Bargnani because he's a slashing, rebounding guard. Now Demar is averaging close to 7 rebs a game, and if they get Smith who would most likely get 10rebs a game then JV turns into a 15/10 guy, I would cut my left nut if we'd still hear a complaint here that Bargnani is only averaging 4 rebs a game.

      And since i doubt the raptors will ever be able to build a strong rebounding defending team around Bargnani, then he has to go.
      Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Nov 13, 2012, 05:52 PM.

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      • #33
        Agree with the first post, except that Derozan is just as bad. Inefficient scorer, nothing else. Flash but no substance. If these guys are so good, and the Raps need to "build around them", why are they on the court while the Raps lose games? What makes them so valuable if they can't win NBA basketball games?

        The only ball player currently worth a damn on this roster is Lowry. JV might eventually turn into a useful player, but that's years down the road. That's why they're losing. The players aren't any good. Wishful thinking isn't a plan.

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        • #34
          Tons of hate towards him recently and he's been playing quite good for the last 3 games. 22.33 PPG, 7.3 boards, 2.3 assists, 2 steals and .66 blocks. Over those 3 he's shooting 41% from the floor only 27% from 3 and 85% from the charity strip with 6.67 attempts per game. I think the team is under achieving and everyone if frustrated and as we're all aware he's most peoples favorite punching bag (warranted to a certain extent).

          All I want is Lowry back in the line up so we can actually see what these guys can do together. Were basically playing the exact same team as last year with the addition of JV and subtraction of JJ and Bayless. Lowry get well soon and hopefully Fields as well cause our perimeter D could use a boost.

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          • #35
            TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
            I agree entirely, and ive said before, if you as a Raptors fan expects Bargnani to be a "decent" rebounder or an amazing defender, then youre shitting on the wrong tree, so to speak. Bargnani, throughout his career, has never had those qualities. IMO, he was drafted with the notion that he will someday be an elite scorer, which i think he can still become, but never a complete player.

            But what i have come to realize is that for the team to be successful by the looks of how management is structuring the team, Bargnani is being put in a situation where he HAS to rebound and defend. And thats whats frustrating the fans. If the Raptors put Bargnani in a situation where all he needs to do is score, then the fans will be happy towards him. I think a great example is Jamal Crawford. When somebody mentions Jamal Crawford, what immediately comes to mind? Scoring. Its seldom mentioned that he's averaging 1.9 asts per game, or 1.0 rebounds or .2 stls. Nobody really pays attention to that because his role is to score. Every team would love to have a Jamal Crawford because he will win you the game with the last second shot. Nobody's saying he's a guard so he should get 10asts per night. Its because, IMO, the teams that he's been in, are coming in with the mentality that this guy is only good for scoring, so we have to live with that. I think Lowry is a good compliment to Bargnani because he's a slashing, rebounding guard. Now Demar is averaging close to 7 rebs a game, and if they get Smith who would most likely get 10rebs a game then JV turns into a 15/10 guy, I would cut my left nut if we'd still hear a complaint here that Bargnani is only averaging 4 rebs a game.

            And since i doubt the raptors will ever be able to build a strong rebounding defending team around Bargnani, then he has to go.
            With Fields playing like he's capable and Lowry in the line up the Raptors have more then enough rebounding and will win that battle majority of nights on the glass. No need to cut your left nut over rebounding as that isn't the issue with the team or was it last year. The issues were and are perimeter defense (Lowry and Fields should help this), 3 point shooters (still an issue unless Ross sees more minutes), free throw attempts and having multiple players who can create their own shot and for others (we have one in Lowry). Demar and Dre can get theirs but aren't facilitators IMO.

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            • #36
              RAPresenting wrote: View Post
              Tons of hate towards him recently and he's been playing quite good for the last 3 games. 22.33 PPG, 7.3 boards, 2.3 assists, 2 steals and .66 blocks. Over those 3 he's shooting 41% from the floor only 27% from 3 and 85% from the charity strip with 6.67 attempts per game. I think the team is under achieving and everyone if frustrated and as we're all aware he's most peoples favorite punching bag (warranted to a certain extent).

              All I want is Lowry back in the line up so we can actually see what these guys can do together. Were basically playing the exact same team as last year with the addition of JV and subtraction of JJ and Bayless. Lowry get well soon and hopefully Fields as well cause our perimeter D could use a boost.
              This is the problem.

              Contrast with Millsap's 34 points on 16 (16!!!!!) shots.

              Now that is not normal but on the season Bargnani takes 16.1 shots to get 17.4 points. Then you have all the 'extras' he does not do.

              Millsap gets 15.6 points on 11.1 shots but he does give you all the extras along with the deep threat and ability to drive on opposing bigs.

              If Bargnani was super efficient, there would be little issue - at least for me. But, alas, he is not.

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              • #37
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                This is the problem.

                Contrast with Millsap's 34 points on 16 (16!!!!!) shots.

                Now that is not normal but on the season Bargnani takes 16.1 shots to get 17.4 points. Then you have all the 'extras' he does not do.

                Millsap gets 15.6 points on 11.1 shots but he does give you all the extras along with the deep threat and ability to drive on opposing bigs.

                If Bargnani was super efficient, there would be little issue - at least for me. But, alas, he is not.
                That clearly illustrates the big issue for the Raps - neither of their primary scorers (Bargnani & DeRozan) are efficient scorers. Add to that the complete waste that the starting SF has been and the fact that the starting C is a rookie, and its little wonder why the Raps have the record that they do.

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                • #38
                  CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                  He scored 37 points on 33 shots and missed more shots than Bargnani attempted, plus he had 5 turnovers and that clear-path foul was a backbreaker. Yes he scored, but his +/- was 2nd worst on the team last night (-9), just 1 point better than McGuire. Bargnani was the 2nd best player on the night at +1, one of only 3 players on the positive side (Lucas was +8 and Ross was +2). The team lost and there were several contributing factors... I'm just sick of so many people blaming Bargnani for everything.
                  IMO the plus minus bullshit is a waste of time it doesn't mean jackshit. DeRozan was the reason we were in the game he was doing everything well. He would have scored 50 had Scott Foster not been officiating. I can't believe you of all people are supporting bargnani, easily the worst performer on the team up until this point. He was NON EXISTANT in every overtime, didn't do anything well. Even the bargnani band wagoners are beginning to hate him

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                  • #39
                    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                    You're right, but it was a bad turnover by DeRozan that resulted in the clear-path foul being called. I was mentioning that in addition to having an inefficient scoring night (17/33 and 1/6 3pt), DeRozan also committed quite a few costly turnovers. I'm not blaming him for the loss, I think teams win or lose as teams.

                    The frustration for me is that if Bargnani had put up the stats that DeRozan did last night, most posters on RR would be ripping him a new one for being an inefficient one-dimensional volume scorer who disappeared in OT, whereas people are praising DeRozan for having a career game. I don't care who the player is, it just irks me when one player is continually blamed for everything going bad for a team (and I'm not referring to you TRex, I'm just replying to your post). We could easily point out several plays by just about every player, in addition to many decisions by coaching staff, which all culminated in the loss last night.

                    For the record, I see definite improvement in DeRozan this year, but scoring 37 points on 33 shots in 60 minutes (essentially almost 2 games worth of playing time) is far from 'star quality'. He's heading in the right direction and I'm hopeful he'll get there, but he still has a loooooong way to go before I would say he's rightfully earned that fat new contract.
                    You need to understand that he played SIXTY MINUTES! playing 60 mins in the nba is insanely tiring and in regulation he was shooting way above 50% and he was outplaying bargnani is every aspect of the game. They Counted on him in OT and he produced but by the Third OT you could tell we was gassed so he threw up bricks. This loss was not his fault in the slightest bit, he was giving it 200% on the court you could tell we wanted to win very badly. Bargnani on the other hand was just standing there half the time on D and his offense was horrendous in OT. Now i know why they call him Il Mago, he disappears in crunch time.

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                    • #40
                      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      That clearly illustrates the big issue for the Raps - neither of their primary scorers (Bargnani & DeRozan) are efficient scorers. Add to that the complete waste that the starting SF has been and the fact that the starting C is a rookie, and its little wonder why the Raps have the record that they do.
                      Thing is, an SG being a bit inefficient isn't as bad as your PF shooting 40% from the field

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                      • #41
                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        This is the problem.

                        Contrast with Millsap's 34 points on 16 (16!!!!!) shots.

                        Now that is not normal but on the season Bargnani takes 16.1 shots to get 17.4 points. Then you have all the 'extras' he does not do.

                        Millsap gets 15.6 points on 11.1 shots but he does give you all the extras along with the deep threat and ability to drive on opposing bigs.

                        If Bargnani was super efficient, there would be little issue - at least for me. But, alas, he is not.
                        Matt I do agree the 41% isn't efficient enough. But how many wide open looks is he missing that he normally knock down. His FG% will come up as the season progresses. Posting it was more so to suggest he's not playing as poorly as it's being made out to be.

                        Yes Millsap was off the charts efficient last night camping out the 3 point arc for wide open 3 after wide open 3. He was able to catch passes after Mo Williams broke down Jose and McGuire and Kleiza came to help. Did you also notice that Dre and Millsap were neck n neck when guarding each other points/rebound wise. When was Millsaps emergence in the game? It was when Dre was switched to Favors who was as useless as Andrea in the 3 OT's. All I'm saying is his play isn't nearly as bad as it's being made out to be so ppl gotta cool it with the negativity or at least watch the game before talking nonsense.

                        For me it's the PG (with Lowry out) and SF position that are the teams weaknesses.

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                        • #42
                          NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                          Thing is, an SG being a bit inefficient isn't as bad as your PF shooting 40% from the field
                          This is such a cop out... It shouldn't matter what position you play. Bigs are typically not looked to for caring the scoring load on most teams as they have stud guards or wings who can create the offense. We currently with Lowry do not have that luxury and don't say Demar is ready for option 1. Majority of the best scorers don't have super high FG% because they are relied upon to take most of the attention of the defense allowing more spacing for the other players who usually have the higher FG%. Dre is a career 44% putting him with in one % or shooting better then players such as Kobe, Harden, Carmelo, OJ Mayo, Westbrook, Crawford, Gay, Batum, Pierce, Cousins, so on and so on. Point is yes guys like LBJ and Dwight have unreal FG% but more scorers aren't as efficient. That's those players career percentages compared to his as 7 games don't tell the story.

                          He's not the typical big man who does the dirt work he's a an offensive weapon that creates space for the other 4 players on the floor and can guard his man adequately on the defensive end. Rebounding isn't what is losing us games or his man lighting him up. Our perimeter defense and the teams ability to score outside of Demar and him are. The team just isn't good enough and the rotations/play calling has been extremely poor but when in doubt blame it on the rain... I mean Dre lol

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                          • #43
                            RAPresenting wrote: View Post
                            This is such a cop out... It shouldn't matter what position you play. Bigs are typically not looked to for caring the scoring load on most teams as they have stud guards or wings who can create the offense. We currently with Lowry do not have that luxury and don't say Demar is ready for option 1. Majority of the best scorers don't have super high FG% because they are relied upon to take most of the attention of the defense allowing more spacing for the other players who usually have the higher FG%. Dre is a career 44% putting him with in one % or shooting better then players such as Kobe, Harden, Carmelo, OJ Mayo, Westbrook, Crawford, Gay, Batum, Pierce, Cousins, so on and so on. Point is yes guys like LBJ and Dwight have unreal FG% but more scorers aren't as efficient. That's those players career percentages compared to his as 7 games don't tell the story.

                            He's not the typical big man who does the dirt work he's a an offensive weapon that creates space for the other 4 players on the floor and can guard his man adequately on the defensive end. Rebounding isn't what is losing us games or his man lighting him up. Our perimeter defense and the teams ability to score outside of Demar and him are. The team just isn't good enough and the rotations/play calling has been extremely poor but when in doubt blame it on the rain... I mean Dre lol
                            I agree with this 100%, but you're kind of contradicting yourself,(and this is exactly what I will say to anyone who thinks that calderon Bargs and Derozan are not responsible largely for our record this year and our mediocrity so far)

                            On the one hand everyone has been blaming the rotations, and the fact that our defense or total team performance has been bad, but on the other hand nearly EVERY offensive set in the half court is run for either AB and Derozan, if not, then it's a pick and roll with Calderon. (I honestly can't watch it anymore it makes me want to vomit)

                            The point is, our perimeter defense sucks because Derozan and Calderon suck at defending the perimeter, and they log a majority of the minutes (Derozan played 60 minutes(!!!!) last night). Our rebounding sucks, because our 4 sucks at rebounding.

                            Most importantly, our offense sucks because we have been banking on second and third string players, as well as 10 day contract guys to take us to the playoffs.
                            If you call plays for crap players, then your team will be crap!

                            It's not just the fact that Bargnani needs to go, what he represents needs to go too

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                            • #44
                              RAPresenting wrote: View Post
                              Matt I do agree the 41% isn't efficient enough. But how many wide open looks is he missing that he normally knock down. His FG% will come up as the season progresses. Posting it was more so to suggest he's not playing as poorly as it's being made out to be.
                              That would buck the trend of his career so far, which is that it's dropping every year.
                              .498=> .467=> .422=> .449 (so far)

                              I'd say it's time to end the Colangelo experiment.

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                              • #45
                                RAPresenting wrote: View Post
                                Matt I do agree the 41% isn't efficient enough. But how many wide open looks is he missing that he normally knock down. His FG% will come up as the season progresses. Posting it was more so to suggest he's not playing as poorly as it's being made out to be.

                                Yes Millsap was off the charts efficient last night camping out the 3 point arc for wide open 3 after wide open 3. He was able to catch passes after Mo Williams broke down Jose and McGuire and Kleiza came to help. Did you also notice that Dre and Millsap were neck n neck when guarding each other points/rebound wise. When was Millsaps emergence in the game? It was when Dre was switched to Favors who was as useless as Andrea in the 3 OT's. All I'm saying is his play isn't nearly as bad as it's being made out to be so ppl gotta cool it with the negativity or at least watch the game before talking nonsense.

                                For me it's the PG (with Lowry out) and SF position that are the teams weaknesses.
                                I've seen every game minus Dallas.

                                Bargnani did not know what to do with a PG like Lowry - granted it was just a few preseason games and 3 regular season games. I look at what Millsap does with Mo Williams.... could you imagine Lowry? Millsap offers you everything Bargnani does but he is tougher and plays balls out. That type of play sets the tone for the team.

                                Where are you getting 41%? I am seeing 37% thus far this season. I do agree his shooting percentage will rise but he'll still be shooting low 40's (~42-44% imo).

                                I see Bargnani as a weakness only because I"m tired of the inconsistency and one-dimensional play he brings to the table. This weakness is in addition to the SF, of coruse.

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