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Thread: Time to end the Bargnani experiment

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    Raptors Republic Starter RAPresenting's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This is the problem.

    Contrast with Millsap's 34 points on 16 (16!!!!!) shots.

    Now that is not normal but on the season Bargnani takes 16.1 shots to get 17.4 points. Then you have all the 'extras' he does not do.

    Millsap gets 15.6 points on 11.1 shots but he does give you all the extras along with the deep threat and ability to drive on opposing bigs.

    If Bargnani was super efficient, there would be little issue - at least for me. But, alas, he is not.
    Matt I do agree the 41% isn't efficient enough. But how many wide open looks is he missing that he normally knock down. His FG% will come up as the season progresses. Posting it was more so to suggest he's not playing as poorly as it's being made out to be.

    Yes Millsap was off the charts efficient last night camping out the 3 point arc for wide open 3 after wide open 3. He was able to catch passes after Mo Williams broke down Jose and McGuire and Kleiza came to help. Did you also notice that Dre and Millsap were neck n neck when guarding each other points/rebound wise. When was Millsaps emergence in the game? It was when Dre was switched to Favors who was as useless as Andrea in the 3 OT's. All I'm saying is his play isn't nearly as bad as it's being made out to be so ppl gotta cool it with the negativity or at least watch the game before talking nonsense.

    For me it's the PG (with Lowry out) and SF position that are the teams weaknesses.

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    Raptors Republic Starter RAPresenting's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Thing is, an SG being a bit inefficient isn't as bad as your PF shooting 40% from the field
    This is such a cop out... It shouldn't matter what position you play. Bigs are typically not looked to for caring the scoring load on most teams as they have stud guards or wings who can create the offense. We currently with Lowry do not have that luxury and don't say Demar is ready for option 1. Majority of the best scorers don't have super high FG% because they are relied upon to take most of the attention of the defense allowing more spacing for the other players who usually have the higher FG%. Dre is a career 44% putting him with in one % or shooting better then players such as Kobe, Harden, Carmelo, OJ Mayo, Westbrook, Crawford, Gay, Batum, Pierce, Cousins, so on and so on. Point is yes guys like LBJ and Dwight have unreal FG% but more scorers aren't as efficient. That's those players career percentages compared to his as 7 games don't tell the story.

    He's not the typical big man who does the dirt work he's a an offensive weapon that creates space for the other 4 players on the floor and can guard his man adequately on the defensive end. Rebounding isn't what is losing us games or his man lighting him up. Our perimeter defense and the teams ability to score outside of Demar and him are. The team just isn't good enough and the rotations/play calling has been extremely poor but when in doubt blame it on the rain... I mean Dre lol

  3. #43
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    This is such a cop out... It shouldn't matter what position you play. Bigs are typically not looked to for caring the scoring load on most teams as they have stud guards or wings who can create the offense. We currently with Lowry do not have that luxury and don't say Demar is ready for option 1. Majority of the best scorers don't have super high FG% because they are relied upon to take most of the attention of the defense allowing more spacing for the other players who usually have the higher FG%. Dre is a career 44% putting him with in one % or shooting better then players such as Kobe, Harden, Carmelo, OJ Mayo, Westbrook, Crawford, Gay, Batum, Pierce, Cousins, so on and so on. Point is yes guys like LBJ and Dwight have unreal FG% but more scorers aren't as efficient. That's those players career percentages compared to his as 7 games don't tell the story.

    He's not the typical big man who does the dirt work he's a an offensive weapon that creates space for the other 4 players on the floor and can guard his man adequately on the defensive end. Rebounding isn't what is losing us games or his man lighting him up. Our perimeter defense and the teams ability to score outside of Demar and him are. The team just isn't good enough and the rotations/play calling has been extremely poor but when in doubt blame it on the rain... I mean Dre lol
    I agree with this 100%, but you're kind of contradicting yourself,(and this is exactly what I will say to anyone who thinks that calderon Bargs and Derozan are not responsible largely for our record this year and our mediocrity so far)

    On the one hand everyone has been blaming the rotations, and the fact that our defense or total team performance has been bad, but on the other hand nearly EVERY offensive set in the half court is run for either AB and Derozan, if not, then it's a pick and roll with Calderon. (I honestly can't watch it anymore it makes me want to vomit)

    The point is, our perimeter defense sucks because Derozan and Calderon suck at defending the perimeter, and they log a majority of the minutes (Derozan played 60 minutes(!!!!) last night). Our rebounding sucks, because our 4 sucks at rebounding.

    Most importantly, our offense sucks because we have been banking on second and third string players, as well as 10 day contract guys to take us to the playoffs.
    If you call plays for crap players, then your team will be crap!

    It's not just the fact that Bargnani needs to go, what he represents needs to go too

  4. #44
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    Matt I do agree the 41% isn't efficient enough. But how many wide open looks is he missing that he normally knock down. His FG% will come up as the season progresses. Posting it was more so to suggest he's not playing as poorly as it's being made out to be.
    That would buck the trend of his career so far, which is that it's dropping every year.
    .498=> .467=> .422=> .449 (so far)

    I'd say it's time to end the Colangelo experiment.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    Matt I do agree the 41% isn't efficient enough. But how many wide open looks is he missing that he normally knock down. His FG% will come up as the season progresses. Posting it was more so to suggest he's not playing as poorly as it's being made out to be.

    Yes Millsap was off the charts efficient last night camping out the 3 point arc for wide open 3 after wide open 3. He was able to catch passes after Mo Williams broke down Jose and McGuire and Kleiza came to help. Did you also notice that Dre and Millsap were neck n neck when guarding each other points/rebound wise. When was Millsaps emergence in the game? It was when Dre was switched to Favors who was as useless as Andrea in the 3 OT's. All I'm saying is his play isn't nearly as bad as it's being made out to be so ppl gotta cool it with the negativity or at least watch the game before talking nonsense.

    For me it's the PG (with Lowry out) and SF position that are the teams weaknesses.
    I've seen every game minus Dallas.

    Bargnani did not know what to do with a PG like Lowry - granted it was just a few preseason games and 3 regular season games. I look at what Millsap does with Mo Williams.... could you imagine Lowry? Millsap offers you everything Bargnani does but he is tougher and plays balls out. That type of play sets the tone for the team.

    Where are you getting 41%? I am seeing 37% thus far this season. I do agree his shooting percentage will rise but he'll still be shooting low 40's (~42-44% imo).

    I see Bargnani as a weakness only because I"m tired of the inconsistency and one-dimensional play he brings to the table. This weakness is in addition to the SF, of coruse.
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  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Bargnani is not a starter. end of discussion.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I've seen every game minus Dallas.

    Bargnani did not know what to do with a PG like Lowry - granted it was just a few preseason games and 3 regular season games. I look at what Millsap does with Mo Williams.... could you imagine Lowry? Millsap offers you everything Bargnani does but he is tougher and plays balls out. That type of play sets the tone for the team.

    Where are you getting 41%? I am seeing 37% thus far this season. I do agree his shooting percentage will rise but he'll still be shooting low 40's (~42-44% imo).

    I see Bargnani as a weakness only because I"m tired of the inconsistency and one-dimensional play he brings to the table. This weakness is in addition to the SF, of coruse.
    +1

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    Raptors Republic All-Star saints91's Avatar
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    I've been a Bargnani supporter in the past. Right now I think it's time to move on. How many times have we catered this roster to his abilities, or lack there of. I think we have the pieces to have a PF that plays in the paint and rebounds. I would take Hansborough over Bargs. Next Year Jonas will contribute on offence more, we have DeMar, and Lowry who are capable scorers. Add a SF that can put up ten, and has a decent 3 pt. percentage. and a PF that can dig, rebound and chip in some points. I wouldn't worry about the offence end at all.

    I would just like to have a prototypical starting PF with our current lineup. It could be a feisty team!
    Last edited by saints91; Tue Nov 13th, 2012 at 09:14 PM.

  9. #49
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    I don't think Bargnani is an experiment. He is an above average player who can be a decent piece of a puzzle not the main one. It is very clear that he, if not fully, has almost peaked.

    What I see though is that his popularity is at it's lowest right now. The reason for this is that he has never been this 'lost' ever before in his career. For the majority of his career he has had Jose as his PG and with the exception of brief stints of Ford and Jack, it was all he knew. Lowry's speedy style has had him all lost and confused. The product of this is the Bargnani we see and dislike. Let's not forget that around this time last year, it was the opposite. I mean, he was hot commodity and people were talking about him probably making the all-star team.

    So keeping things in perspective, IMO it's best to look at him as a good player(with his limitations) who does not fit the present system. With Jose's temporary return to starting duties, he is playing well again. This I think is a good opportunity for BC and Co. to showcase him and get something nice in return. My suggestion is trade him for a starting caliber SF and insert Davis or Amir in the starting lineup to take Andrea's place.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    I don't think Bargnani is an experiment. He is an above average player who can be a decent piece of a puzzle not the main one. It is very clear that he, if not fully, has almost peaked.

    What I see though is that his popularity is at it's lowest right now. The reason for this is that he has never been this 'lost' ever before in his career. For the majority of his career he has had Jose as his PG and with the exception of brief stints of Ford and Jack, it was all he knew. Lowry's speedy style has had him all lost and confused. The product of this is the Bargnani we see and dislike. Let's not forget that around this time last year, it was the opposite. I mean, he was hot commodity and people were talking about him probably making the all-star team.

    So keeping things in perspective, IMO it's best to look at him as a good player(with his limitations) who does not fit the present system. With Jose's temporary return to starting duties, he is playing well again. This I think is a good opportunity for BC and Co. to showcase him and get something nice in return. My suggestion is trade him for a starting caliber SF and insert Davis or Amir in the starting lineup to take Andrea's place.
    .

    +1

    Give Ed more minutes... He led the team in rebounds last year in limited minutes...

    We know Ed can get rebounds... When Lowry gets back Ed should start and AJ, Calderon and Andrea should play together in the 2nd Unit

    Thoughts?

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    I made a comment during the offseason where I indicated that for Bargnani to take a next step as a pro, he needed to be in the best shape of his life. The reason being is he disappears in games because of the lack of stamina. He becomes heavy footed and it also reflects on all the flat bricks he throws.

    I think that he came into the season in worse shape than last year after the injury, so go figure how that reflects on his play. I do agree that a role as a bench player where he can still score his 15-20 points against weaker competition would be suited for him.

    My only concern with this is defenses loading up on Derozan in the post, knowing a guy like Amir or Ed has no shot. My dream scenario would be for Bargnani to get traded for someone servicable -- like a Milsap or West; it will never happen though.
    ďI donít create controversies. Theyíre there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.Ē

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    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    a team is only as strong as its weakest link...Bargs u are the weakest link GOODBYE! LOL

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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Raps need a new PF. They're not going to win with Bargnani. Not picking on him but i've had enough watching this guy. Tonight's game was another great example why. He was nowhere to be found in the 2nd half, he always disappears in crunch time, can't rebound, defensively he's so soft. He can shoot the ball but that's really all he brings to the table. Raps need a PF that can rebound the ball, play tough defence and have some kind of a low post game. You know, a true POWER forward.

    When i look at this Raps team. They have 4 legit talents. DeRozan, Lowry, Valanciunas and Calderon. They need to build around DD, JV and Lowry but they also need to surround them with REAL talents.

    If i'm Colangelo i would call the Utah GM right now if Derrick Favours is available. If not i'd ask if Enes Kanter is available. Both talented POWER forwards but not getting much time because of Jefferson and Millsap. Jefferson and Millsap are both UFA's after this season.

    Jefferson in my opinion is the perfect type of player the Raps need but i can't see the Jazz ever letting him go. But if he becomes a UFA he'll cost a lot of $$$$. Same with Millsap.

    If the Jazz re-sign both guys or let's say just Jefferson. One of Favours or Kanter should be available.
    best thread ever
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    Default Special Request Post from "FAQ"

    He asked nicely so I thought I'd comply:

    FAQ says:
    Vince hinted he was open to returning to TO... as an elder statesman player/leader. He's earning $3 Mill with Dallas, so he would prolly come back if BC offered him say, $5 Mill.

    Now that Dirk is wearing down and getting injured, maybe Bargs could be traded to Dallas for Vince plus fillers.... ya think??!!!
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I've seen every game minus Dallas.

    Bargnani did not know what to do with a PG like Lowry - granted it was just a few preseason games and 3 regular season games. I look at what Millsap does with Mo Williams.... could you imagine Lowry? Millsap offers you everything Bargnani does but he is tougher and plays balls out. That type of play sets the tone for the team.

    Where are you getting 41%? I am seeing 37% thus far this season. I do agree his shooting percentage will rise but he'll still be shooting low 40's (~42-44% imo).

    I see Bargnani as a weakness only because I"m tired of the inconsistency and one-dimensional play he brings to the table. This weakness is in addition to the SF, of coruse.
    Didn't mean for the nonsense comment to come directed towards you. Your at least reasonable in your posts and don't just spit out ignorance and have valid reasoning behind them. That was directed at the majority of the anti-bargnani cult that is trolling out in full force after a bad game by him or a loss regardless of his play.

    I don't think 3 regular season contests is enough to see what his chemistry is like with Lowry. We've gone over this several times I understand Millsap is better would trade him for Dre in a heart beat but that offer is obviously not on the table so why keep bringing him up?

    If you read the post you would know that 41% was his shooting over the last 3 games. I was saying he's not playing as bad as he's being made out to as he was rebounding 7+, getting assists and some blocks/steals. All the intangibles everyone was complaining about were there even though he wasn't shooting well. If a scorer is shooting 44 which is his average over his career with out other options to spread the floor I'm fine with it.

    His inconsistency is frustrating no question and for the millionth time I'm perfectly fine with him being traded like anyone on the roster if it makes the team better. I just look at the glaring holes in the roster and the teams major weaknesses and it's definitely not at the 4 spot lets be serious.

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    Default Tim Chisholm - It's time for the Raptors to trade Bargnani - Article

    see the link - http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=409482

    Thirteen games.

    For most any recent Raptors fan, you can say "thirteen games" and they immediately know what you're talking about. It's been referred to incessantly for almost a year, as a reason for hope and optimism and as a justification for six long years of meager returns.

    However, it now looks like those thirteen games will serve as an indictment rather than an exoneration. Those thirteen games that should have pushed people out of their cynicism will now only sink people further into it. In typical Raptors fashion, those thirteen games that should have been the start of what is, instead represent yet another case of what could have been but isn't.

    That's why it's time to trade Andrea Bargnani.

    For thirteen games to start last season, Bargnani finally showed what he can be when he puts it all together. He reached the apex of his personal mountain, the pinnacle of his potential and showed the basketball world what had so enraptured Bryan Colangelo when he drafted Bargnani first overall in 2006. He was a terror on offence, he was committed on defence and he was a true on-court leader for the first time in his NBA career.

    He was also apparently incapable of sustaining that level of production.

    Bargnani was famously injured after thirteen games last season and played just 18 more the rest of the way, averaging 16.1 ppg on .403 shooting and just 5.1 rpg before being shut down for good with a bothersome calf injury being cited as the reason for Bargnani's downturn in production.

    Well, through eight games this season Bargnani is averaging 16.3 ppg on .357 shooting and just 4.6 rpg and he has no calf injury to blame as a reason for his lack of production. Opposing power forwards are averaging a blistering 20.5 PER against him according to 82games.com and the team is allowing a whopping 11.4 points per 100 possessions more when Bargnani is on the court.

    Instead of working over defences with his strong mid-range game, he's once again drifting out to the three-point line and staying there, averaging a career-high 4.5 attempts per game from behind the arc. He's currently sporting a career-low in rebound rate and true shooting percentage, with his PER is sitting at 12.7, his lowest since 2007-08.

    The difference now, versus all of the other times in Bargnani's career when he's looked underwhelming, is that he's shown people his best and now that's what he's being measured against. No longer are we talking about Bargnani's ephemeral potential, but instead we are talking about the actual production that he demonstrated and is now not living up to. Those thirteen games have gone from being Bargnani's breakthrough to his cross to bear. Bargnani was kept in Toronto for so long because he was supposed to still have higher to climb as a player, because he still had heights that he hadn't shown the world yet.

    Well, he's shown those heights now, and he doesn't look anywhere close to being able to replicate them on a consistent basis, which is why it's time for the Raptors to sever ties and move on.

    Bargnani is a relic of a different time in Raptor-land, a time when offensive prowess was valued above all else, a time when the team was defined by a different cast of characters and a different guiding philosophy. For fans, he is a nightly reminder of what this team is supposed to be moving away from. The club wants to be seen as a gritty, defence-first outfit that wins with heart and hustle, and Bargnani is simply the antithesis to that style. He no longer belongs. Like so many Raptors before him, he has teased fans with what he could be and has refused to live up to that standard.

    Perhaps more than anything, that is the reason the Raptors have to trade Bargnani. They can no longer shrug their shoulders at players that don't work to max-out their talent. That can no longer be a defining characteristic of the club. They cited DeMar DeRozan's work ethic as a big reason why they felt obligated to extend his contract. They cited Jonas Valanciunas' heart and hustle as big factors in not only drafting him fifth but being willing to wait a year for his arrival. They love the intensity of guys like Kyle Lowry and Amir Johnson. Those guys represent what the club says it wants to be about, which by extension has to mean that Andrea Bargnani does not.

    If this club is so eager to move into the next phase of their evolution, then they have to admit that those thirteen games didn't mean what they thought they did. They have to work to expunge from the roster the pieces that don't fit the personality that the team so desperately wants to adopt, and that that process has to start by - finally - moving Bargnani out of Toronto.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    Didn't mean for the nonsense comment to come directed towards you. Your at least reasonable in your posts and don't just spit out ignorance and have valid reasoning behind them. That was directed at the majority of the anti-bargnani cult that is trolling out in full force after a bad game by him or a loss regardless of his play.

    I don't think 3 regular season contests is enough to see what his chemistry is like with Lowry. We've gone over this several times I understand Millsap is better would trade him for Dre in a heart beat but that offer is obviously not on the table so why keep bringing him up?

    If you read the post you would know that 41% was his shooting over the last 3 games. I was saying he's not playing as bad as he's being made out to as he was rebounding 7+, getting assists and some blocks/steals. All the intangibles everyone was complaining about were there even though he wasn't shooting well. If a scorer is shooting 44 which is his average over his career with out other options to spread the floor I'm fine with it.

    His inconsistency is frustrating no question and for the millionth time I'm perfectly fine with him being traded like anyone on the roster if it makes the team better. I just look at the glaring holes in the roster and the teams major weaknesses and it's definitely not at the 4 spot lets be serious.
    Sorry I missed that. Thanks for clarifying.
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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Bargnani is a relic of a different time in Raptor-land, a time when offensive prowess was valued above all else, a time when the team was defined by a different cast of characters and a different guiding philosophy. For fans, he is a nightly reminder of what this team is supposed to be moving away from. The club wants to be seen as a gritty, defence-first outfit that wins with heart and hustle, and Bargnani is simply the antithesis to that style. He no longer belongs. Like so many Raptors before him, he has teased fans with what he could be and has refused to live up to that standard.
    Tim Chisholm takes the hammer and hits the nail on the head.

    I don't care how 'ugly' people think it is but I would take the grind it out style we saw last year and versus the Pacers any day of the week over what we have seen prior to last night this season.
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  19. #59
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    Chisholm's been kind of annoying me lately but that article is spot fucking on
    @jerboat

  20. #60
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    I don't mind grind it out games as long as we win. and when we're just beating on the other team its fun

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