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Thread: Reasons for Optimism

  1. #101
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    I was right you were wronggg I'm gonna sing the I was right songgg

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  3. #102
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    Well when the argument itself involves the future prospects of certain players/teams, the only way to assess the outcome is by waiting for the future.

    It's a little more like saying: "Haha, can you believe that douche? He invested in blackberry instead of apple!"
    If we're talking about the future, then I wouldn't say that Matt has been proven wrong....since this core hasn't won a championship
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  4. #103
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    That's kind of the same point as I was making in my post, I think you misinterpreted my tone.
    right, I re-read it. I thought you said bringing up old arguments WAS a terrible idea.
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  5. #104
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    If we're talking about the future, then I wouldn't say that Matt has been proven wrong....since this core hasn't won a championship
    Thats a good point.. however we are closer now then ever in franchise history. The other teams that reached 47 wins were old teams, this is a young team that has become our best team ever with plenty of time to continue to improve together, and we have the capspace to add more talent to it. This is the perfect position to shoot for a championship. Though no guarantee obviously.
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  6. #105
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    If we're talking about the future, then I wouldn't say that Matt has been proven wrong....since this core hasn't won a championship
    Fair enough... I actually didn't read whatever argument happened in this thread.

    I was just piping in with my 2 cents

  7. #106
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Its like you did not even read the post.

    Look at what I said about the core that I claimed we should move forward with. I was clearly saying Bargs is not part of the core. I was clearly saying that we need to look at Demar, Lowry, Ross, and Val, and how they will become complete. This is a time when people were still luke-warm about Lowry, people thought Ross was a scrub, and everyone was yelling to trade Demar.

    Jeezus. Dont throw vitriol at me if you didn't even read what I said.
    But the 8-man core you loved involved Calderon, Davis and Fields, so there's been a 37.5% turnover since you made your statement.

    The argument against that core was that it would barely make the playoffs and never be a true contender. I don't think either of those points were disproven this season.

    Fields never recovered, Calderon & Davis were traded for a talented player who became a black-hole before being jettisoned in a move that was arguably intended to begin a rebuild/tank, and even then this team wouldn't be where it is today with the contributions from the Sacramento-4.

    I really don't get what you were right about, hence my comment.

  8. #107
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    But the 8-man core you loved involved Calderon, Davis and Fields, so there's been a 37.5% turnover since you made your statement.

    The argument against that core was that it would barely make the playoffs and never be a true contender. I don't think either of those points were disproven this season.

    Fields never recovered, Calderon & Davis were traded for a talented player who became a black-hole before being jettisoned in a move that was arguably intended to begin a rebuild/tank, and even then this team wouldn't be where it is today with the contributions from the Sacramento-4.

    I really don't get what you were right about, hence my comment.
    To be fair, it IS looking like the core of Lowry-Ross-DD-Jonas is good enough to at least make some noise in the playoffs.

    And it's definitely looking like in a couple years, they'll be even more dangerous.

    The Fields/Calderon/Davis part was the shotgun approach I was referring to

  9. #108
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    But the 8-man core you loved involved Calderon, Davis and Fields, so there's been a 37.5% turnover since you made your statement.

    The argument against that core was that it would barely make the playoffs and never be a true contender. I don't think either of those points were disproven this season.

    Fields never recovered, Calderon & Davis were traded for a talented player who became a black-hole before being jettisoned in a move that was arguably intended to begin a rebuild/tank, and even then this team wouldn't be where it is today with the contributions from the Sacramento-4.

    I really don't get what you were right about, hence my comment.
    Except I even brought up trading Calderon for his returns... are you serious? Please read if you want to attack. Not to mention when I outlined the CORE I brought up only 3 names: Derozan Lowry Val, and said Ross could grow to join this core.
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  10. #109
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Im pretty sure I gave legit reasons to why the core of Lowry-Derozan-Ross-Val was going to be good. Not only is this core now one of the best Raptors teams ever, but this core has succeeded exactly in the way I said. Lowry became our MVP, Derozan became a more complete player (assists, 3pt, etc), Ross is a perfect fit with his silky shot and defensive potential, and Val is going to be just as good as advertised.

    Those were literally what I said 2 years ago and today its gone pretty close to what I imagined (minus Landry + Ed).
    Of those four players the only player I've ever advocated not building around was DD. I still don't have a lot of faith in him. We'll see what happens in the playoffs.

    As for Lowry, I was a huge fan when he was traded for. The problem is he wasted a whole year being a malcontent douche and finally put it all together in the most important year of his career - and likely last big pay day. Sorry if I am skeptical moving forward.

    I've always been a fan of Ross and JV.


    So your argument is you took 4 young players off the roster from 2 seasons ago and said they'd eventually be the core of a playoff team? No shit. Just about everyone here, myself included, has consistently said the ceiling of this team is a playoff team... not a contending team. The problem is exactly what Masai said at the start of the year: making the playoffs is easy; over half the league makes the playoffs. I want more - check my signature. I think most fans on here what more but I could be wrong. On a sidenote, it is ironic the Raptors have been the beneficiaries of 2 Atlantic Division championships in the worst two years of the last 10 (2007 and 2014).


    As for what this team eventually becomes, we'll see. There are still a lot of unknowns beyond this season. If Lowry signs elsewhere then what does this team become?


    The only thing you have proven to me today is you have an inferiority complex likely as a result of small stature and/or other smallness issues. You've also shown that your idea of success is making the playoffs and praying for favourable seeding (please, please, please Washington and please, please, please hope indiana doesn't get their shit together... PLEEEEEASE!) so the team can maybe make the eastern conference finals where it will play a true powerhouse and get demolished.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  11. #110
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    To be fair, it IS looking like the core of Lowry-Ross-DD-Jonas is good enough to at least make some noise in the playoffs.

    And it's definitely looking like in a couple years, they'll be even more dangerous.

    The Fields/Calderon/Davis part was the shotgun approach I was referring to
    You're right.

    The problem is it comes in a year when Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Chicago are down all-stars and there is a tank race on in the east like never seen before. Granted JV and Ross are sure to continue to improve though so there is that.
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  12. #111
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The only thing you have proven to me today is you have an inferiority complex likely as a result of small stature and/or other smallness issues.
    Okay Matt52, sure. Out of all the back and forths we have ever had, this is one example of me coming out on top. If you and I had a conversation 2 years ago about the future, and you were right I would gracefully concede that you were right. Instead you kick and scream and attack my person.
    Its like, either you're right, or everyone is trying to hard to prove they are right. Eitherway, no one can win with having an argument with you.

    My intentions with bringing this thread up went like this:

    1. "This season is going down in raptors history. Thats fucking awesome"
    2. "Ive been a supporter of this team through so many losing seasons, finally the sacrifice is worth it"
    3. "The best Raptor team ever includes a core which I watched getting drafted and traded for, Ive been with this particular core since the beginning"
    4. "Im so glad we didn't blow up this team"
    5. "Im so happy to have my opinions about the potential of this team validated"
    6. "Lets dig up that optimism thread to see how validated my opinions were"
    7. "My opinions were pretty damn validated; Infact, its funny to read what the people arguing against my optimism in this thread were saying, ergo: "I told you so""

    Not:
    "Oh boy, I get to show Matt52 up"
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  13. #112
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You're right.

    The problem is it comes in a year when Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Chicago are down all-stars and there is a tank race on in the east like never seen before. Granted JV and Ross are sure to continue to improve though so there is that.
    There's always injured players though. And despite the weak east, the west is also unusually strong.

    I think realistically we're at least a top 12 team in the NBA on any given year.

    We're also super young.

    So I think we can crack the top 6 one year, and be a legitimate contender without bringing in a 'superstar'.

    I'm nowhere near ready to write off this core yet.
    Last edited by stooley; Tue Apr 15th, 2014 at 03:14 PM.

  14. #113
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Okay Matt52, sure. Out of all the back and forths we have ever had, this is one example of me coming out on top. If you and I had a conversation 2 years ago about the future, and you were right I would gracefully concede that you were right. Instead you kick and scream and attack my person.
    Its like, either you're right, or everyone is trying to hard to prove they are right. Eitherway, no one can win with having an argument with you.

    My intentions with bringing this thread up went like this:

    1. "This season is going down in raptors history. Thats fucking awesome"
    2. "Ive been a supporter of this team through so many losing seasons, finally the sacrifice is worth it"
    3. "The best Raptor team ever includes a core which I watched getting drafted and traded for, Ive been with this particular core since the beginning"
    4. "Im so glad we didn't blow up this team"
    5. "Im so happy to have my opinions about the potential of this team validated"
    6. "Lets dig up that optimism thread to see how validated my opinions were"
    7. "My opinions were pretty damn validated; Infact, its funny to read what the people arguing against my optimism in this thread were saying, ergo: "I told you so""

    Not:
    "Oh boy, I get to show Matt52 up"
    You'll need to work on your delivery if these were your intentions. Starting out anonymous and passive agressive is not a good way to make a point.

  15. #114
    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You'll need to work on your delivery if these were your intentions. Starting out anonymous and passive agressive is not a good way to make a point.
    Wow. I just had a deja vu. For a second there I thought you were my wife.

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  17. #115
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    It's just... at this point, when it comes down to making a major move, it better be a clear win.

    I don't think breaking this team up would do any good.

    Give us a certain chance of being a contender with this core. I don't think we're that far off.

    I think that percentage is higher than the one that results in a complete rebuild being a contender. There are a lot more moving parts in the second scenario.

  18. #116
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Dr. James Naismith wrote: View Post
    Wow. I just had a deja vu. For a second there I thought you were my wife.
    Bahaha.

    Funny enough when I read enlightenment's original post I wondered if that could be my wife.

    His final post thus far has done nothing to quell the suspicion, by the way.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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  20. #117
    Raptors Republic Rookie buckets's Avatar
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    damn, OP with the W!
    "you can't be playing checkers, on no chess board yoo!" - D'angelo

  21. #118
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    The main problem I have with the premise of this thread is that I still don't believe this year's success is due to the Lowry-DD-JV core.

    I believe this year's success is due to Lowry playing out of his mind, at an All-NBA level. He's driving the bus.

    Take him out of the mix, and there are big problems. Plug in anyone but an elite talent (which Lowry, right now, is) into the PG position, and there are big problems.

    By contrast, replace any of DD-JV-AJ-TR with a less capable player at their position, and I don't think the needle of the team's fortunes moves very much. (Although, given the way the defense has falling off a cliff since Amir's been hobbling around, I'm warming up to the idea that he's more important than I've been giving him credit for.)

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  23. #119
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    The main problem I have with the premise of this thread is that I still don't believe this year's success is due to the Lowry-DD-JV core.

    I believe this year's success is due to Lowry playing out of his mind, at an All-NBA level. He's driving the bus.

    Take him out of the mix, and there are big problems. Plug in anyone but an elite talent (which Lowry, right now, is) into the PG position, and there are big problems.

    By contrast, replace any of DD-JV-AJ-TR with a less capable player at their position, and I don't think the needle of the team's fortunes moves very much. (Although, given the way the defense has falling off a cliff since Amir's been hobbling around, I'm warming up to the idea that he's more important than I've been giving him credit for.)
    I agree about the Lowry part.

    I agree about the Johnson, DeRozan, Valanciunas and Ross part as well, although I feel like Valanciunas and Ross have the potential to develop into something special.

    I disagree with the last part about Johnson though. He's a decent defender, but his offense has almost completely fallen off. On the defensive side, I agree he was missed, but I think that had as much to do with the fact that Patterson (who also missed time), Hansbrough, Hayes and Novak are all terrible defenders, for various reasons (good rebounders, but not great defenders). I still view the starting PF spot as the position most in need of an upgrade for the Raptors.

  24. #120
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Do JV, DD and Ross get better next year? I don't think there is any question about that. DD has a history of improving. And JV and Ross have played better since the Gay trade...no reason to not expect them to pick up right where they left off if not better, given guidance from McKechnie and the other assistant coaches. Not to mention JV's time with Lithuania.

    Does Lowry resign? If he does, there is no reason to expect him not to play as he has this year.

    Amir? There is no reason to expect him not to play as he has this year.

    GV? I expect him to play more as he has at the end of the season. He has gained the confidence of the coach and he is more familiar with his team members and his game has improved as a result.

    De Colo? Nice surprise. Casey will use him better and again, he is gaining confidence in his game and understanding his teammates better.

    Patterson? I want to see him after a summer of conditioning (under McKechnie) and working on those aspects of his game that his current role has indicated that he needs to improve. I see no reason (given what appears to be his character and attitude) not to expect improvement.

    Fields? Excited to see what another off-season of work does to his elbow. I would expect improvement, which means another arrow in the quiver for Casey or trade chip for MU. I forget who on this site has been saying for the past year that the kind of injury (and surgery) he experienced takes years to recover from. Well...next season is years.

    Salmons? Bye bye. Thank you.

    Novak? Not needed.

    So...some financial flexibility and I expect significant internal growth. Lots of reason for optimism.

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