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Thread: Reasons for Optimism

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What has happened since the season has started?

    1) All financial flexibility (barring a trade before the deadline) is lost with DeRozan contract. Forget whether it is a good contract or not, it is about the leverage the Raptors had to match any offer while also creating an advantage on the trade front once the season ended until the moment DeRozan signs an offer sheet or a contract from Toronto.

    2) Bargnani is no longer running on potential. He is who he is. He is reliably unreliable.

    3) The team has regressed defensively.

    4) The culture change was a crock of shit. Raptors are back to being the rudy-poo, candy-asses the majority of the league already took them for. Grind it out, protect the paint, rebound the shit out of the ball is so 2011-12.

    5) The realization the team is not only failing at accelerating the rebuild but the team is also losing pace with other bottom dwellers in making progress.


    The only positive I see so far this season is JV is farther along and not the 'project' thought.
    1) i don't think it's fair to forget wether the contract is good or not. If it is good then it was a great move but if it ends up being a bad deal then it kills our finacial flexibility.

    2) for me bargs hasn't been running on potential for 3 years. I was happy he had his streak last year and hoped it was something to build on but he is the same player he was before then. Which to me is a good nba calibre player. I also think he should be coming off the bench behind klieza for a couple games though. The hell or high water comment is the opposite of what casey says for everyone else.

    3) i agree but feel it is more because they are trying to implement some offense into it as well.

    4) disagree. They aren't losing the games because of defense. They are losing because they either can't play 4 quarters of ball or late game execution.

    5) again disagree. If it is wins losses i think only the cats of exceeded expectations and give credit to my boy mkg.
    Last edited by Miekenstien; Mon Nov 26th, 2012 at 01:34 AM.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    People who still have a "wait and see" approach with Bryan Colangelo are likely the same people who used the same approach with Bargnani after his 13-game stunt. It's absolutely ridiculous.

    Just a comment on the DeRozan contract -- It's not so much how bad the contract was as it was an indicator of Bryan Colangelo's poor decision making. It doesn't matter of DeRozan plays well or not -- he could be the next Michael Jordan -- it was a bad decision to sign him to a contract a year ahead of needing to do so. It's a showing that Colangelo hasn't learned from past mistakes and does not know how to make sound business decisions.

    There are way too many situations where you look at a Colangelo decision and you hear "Oh, but if that player plays better, then he'll look like a genius!". You should be saying that maybe once or twice for an entire CAREER of a GM, not once or twice every season. It's a sign of the short-sightedness of Colangelo and it makes you realize that this guy has absolutely no plan at all. He's a gambler and he's taking you and the rest of Toronto along for the ride.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    1) i don't think it's fair to forget wether the contract is good or not. If it is good then it was a great move but if it ends up being a bad deal then it kills our finacial flexibility.

    2) for me bargs hasn't been running on potential for 3 years. I was happy he had his streak last year and hoped it was something to build on but he is the same player he was before then. Which to me is a good nba calibre player. I also think he should be coming off the bench behind klieza for a couple games though. The hell or high water comment is the opposite of what casey says for everyone else.

    3) i agree but feel it is more because they are trying to implement some offense into it as well.

    4) disagree. They aren't losing the games because of defense. They are losing because they either can't play 4 quarters of ball or late game execution.

    5) again disagree. If it is wins losses i think only the cats of exceeded expectations and give credit to my boy mkg.
    1) the contract could have been done in restricted free agency. The Raps would have had another $10M in cap space for trade in an environment where the new luxury tax is going to make a lot of teams make non-basketball decisions.

    2) Bargnani is reliably unreliable. That is the difference between decent and great players in the league: consistency.

    3) Casey should coach to his strengths. The cart is being put before the horse in Toronto.

    4) I see your disagreement and raise you another. Toronto is 25th in points allowed be game, 22nd in defensive rating, 24th in opponent fg%, and 27th in rebounds allowed.

    5) The Raptors are tied for 2nd worst record in the league after 14 games. I am willing to agree to disagree.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    4) The culture change was a crock of shit. Raptors are back to being the rudy-poo, candy-asses the majority of the league already took them for. Grind it out, protect the paint, rebound the shit out of the ball is so 2011-12.
    As I said last year and in the offseason, you can't change a culture without changing the people. Culture is not something that just happens, or that can be imposed. It's a by-product of your personnel. Quick story:

    My first job was with a struggling group in a company. When I started, I worked my ass off: 12-15 hour days. Then, I noticed that all the managers left at 4:00 and the senior guys were playing on the internet all day. So, all of us young guys started doing the same thing. A year later, the company removed the vice president in charge of our group and hired a new guy. The next day, the new VP fired all 3 senior managers. The day after: he fired all the senior guys under them. The next day, he fired half of the juniors. The message was clear: fucking around time is over boys. It took two years but by the time I left for another job, the department was back on its feet. Why? Cause the department was now full of hard working, intelligent guys who were ambitious and hungry. Why? Cause he hired guys who were hard working, intelligent, ambitious and hungry.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Dare I say, some optimism from yesterday's game? I agree, no moral victories these days. But what has been the bane of our recent close heartbreaking losses? Either we can't score that last possession bucket or can't get that last stop. We have no go to guy. We freeze at crunch time. So last night, down by 2 with one possession left, JV gets the foul and sinks both shots. Clutch last play scoring. Spurs have the ball with 24 seconds to get the winning shot. Great D (by AB no less!) and the Spurs get a bad looking shot. Same scene with seconds left in overtime down 2. Demar summons the will to get 2 points with an interesting "foul me all you want, I'll get the rebound" play to tie things up. With just under a second left, they successfully prevent the Spurs from getting a last ditch shot off. Things that if they had just done once in the past few games, you'd be looking at wins. They did it four times yesterday. They just didn't do it five times. Hopefully that's how this team is coming together.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    As I said last year and in the offseason, you can't change a culture without changing the people. Culture is not something that just happens, or that can be imposed. It's a by-product of your personnel. Quick story:

    My first job was with a struggling group in a company. When I started, I worked my ass off: 12-15 hour days. Then, I noticed that all the managers left at 4:00 and the senior guys were playing on the internet all day. So, all of us young guys started doing the same thing. A year later, the company removed the vice president in charge of our group and hired a new guy. The next day, the new VP fired all 3 senior managers. The day after: he fired all the senior guys under them. The next day, he fired half of the juniors. The message was clear: fucking around time is over boys. It took two years but by the time I left for another job, the department was back on its feet. Why? Cause the department was now full of hard working, intelligent guys who were ambitious and hungry. Why? Cause he hired guys who were hard working, intelligent, ambitious and hungry.
    This is great, but how does it apply to the Raptors exactly?

    Based on your analogy, who are the senior guys who got fired? We had a team in the top 10 defensively, we got rid of Barbosa, Bayless, James Johnson, Gary Forbes, Alabi, Uzoh, Carter, Magloire, and replaced them with JV, Ross, Lowry, Fields, Lucas, McGuire and Acy. Now our defense is amongst the worst in the league again. Should replace half the team again?
    your pal,
    ebrian

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    This is great, but how does it apply to the Raptors exactly?

    Based on your analogy, who are the senior guys who got fired? We had a team in the top 10 defensively, we got rid of Barbosa, Bayless, James Johnson, Gary Forbes, Alabi, Uzoh, Carter, Magloire, and replaced them with JV, Ross, Lowry, Fields, Lucas, McGuire and Acy. Now our defense is amongst the worst in the league again. Should replace half the team again?

    Here is what slaw was hinting at:

    #FireBC

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    This is great, but how does it apply to the Raptors exactly?

    Based on your analogy, who are the senior guys who got fired? We had a team in the top 10 defensively, we got rid of Barbosa, Bayless, James Johnson, Gary Forbes, Alabi, Uzoh, Carter, Magloire, and replaced them with JV, Ross, Lowry, Fields, Lucas, McGuire and Acy. Now our defense is amongst the worst in the league again. Should replace half the team again?
    I'm guessing the analogy wasn't specific to defense, but instead, "culture" in general. In which case Colangelo needs to go, his henchmen need to go, and their defensively-challenged, 1-dimensional players, need to go.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    This is great, but how does it apply to the Raptors exactly?

    Based on your analogy, who are the senior guys who got fired? We had a team in the top 10 defensively, we got rid of Barbosa, Bayless, James Johnson, Gary Forbes, Alabi, Uzoh, Carter, Magloire, and replaced them with JV, Ross, Lowry, Fields, Lucas, McGuire and Acy. Now our defense is amongst the worst in the league again. Should replace half the team again?
    It's not a story about shuffling around the worker bees. It's a story about management. Establishing a successful organizational culture doesn't start with the minions, it starts with the head honcho. If MLSE wants to send a message that "fucking around time is over", cleaning out the front office (and I do mean cleaning it out) is the place to start.

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  11. #50
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    In that case I agree with you 100%!

  12. #51
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Just wanted to say:

    I told you so.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  13. #52
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Just wanted to say:

    I told you so.
    Told who what exactly? To be optimistic at the start of the previous season (which was a trainwreck)?

  14. #53
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    People keep finding all these excuses. Landry Fields was hurting us when playing, and now people go "oh bad luck we have Landry Fields hurt!" If you haven't noticed, Dallas is above .500 with a rag tag group of cast offs and old people and NO Dirk Nowitzki.

    Our record is what it is. We are not a good team, we are much closer to the worst team in the league then we are to a playoff team. Lowry can keep it as positive as he wants but I see a team that's been playing for a month and are only better than the 0-10 Washington Wizards.

    Oh, and I'm sorry to burst anyones bubble, but this percieved "core" of DeRozan, Lowry and Valanciunas in his prime is like a 7th seed at best, despite improvements, DeRozan will never be a top 3 option on a good-great team, he's a 6th man or "Landry Fields" starter at best.
    Mhhmmmmm You are not Nostradamus

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  15. #54
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    It's not a story about shuffling around the worker bees. It's a story about management. Establishing a successful organizational culture doesn't start with the minions, it starts with the head honcho. If MLSE wants to send a message that "fucking around time is over", cleaning out the front office (and I do mean cleaning it out) is the place to start.
    This is probably the most sensible post. Short and on the nose.

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  17. #55
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    We don't need results now.
    We need a good team and a strong foundation. The results will shortly follow!
    We need a good team but the Raptors are not a good team. WE need a strong foundation but there is not a strong foundation.

    There were results last year in an incredible turnaround on defense. This year the results all point to regression.

    I disagree results are not needed now. A lack of results now is proof the direction of the franchise is flawed.
    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Told who what exactly? To be optimistic at the start of the previous season (which was a trainwreck)?
    Im pretty sure this is self explanatory.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  18. #56
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Im pretty sure this is self explanatory.
    I don't think it is at all. I think you're trying to sound smart about something that was totally random. The foundation is totally different (if you count players to front office to coaches). Some pieces were moved...some pieces they were moved for were moved....Management was totally cleared out, and the support staff in the coaching team totally changed. The team that started this season more closely resembled the team you were saying to be optimistic about, and the early results were so awful that Masai shook things up even earlier than anybody could've thought.

    You're just being annoyingly condescending about this.

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  20. #57
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Im pretty sure this is self explanatory.
    Bahahhahahahahaha

    Whatever makes you feel good, dude.

    Notice when the comments were made? Yeah, you were so right about a team headed to a 6-12 start before a MAJOR trade that drastically changed the team.

    Bahahhahaha

    I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong - one of my more redeeming qualities in a sea of not so redeeming qualities.

    But it is nice to know you've been holding this card close to the vest. I bet it makes you feel good now, eh?

    Bahhahahahaha
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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  21. #58
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    So weird that this was even bumped... its two Season Old?! WTF?!
    In Masai we Trust.

  22. #59
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Joey wrote: View Post
    So weird that this was even bumped... its two Season Old?! WTF?!
    Good lord.

    That just makes it even more laughable.

    I thought it was from the start of this year.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  23. #60
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    I agree, I like where the team is going, and am afraid another GM would unravel our development
    Since we are cherry picking comments, perusing the thread, I find this hilarious.

    Yeah, Masai sure unraveled this teams development!

    Lets start the #BBB campaign!

    #BringBackBryan
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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