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Thread: Why it (probably) isn't time to trade Bargnani

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    There is only none God? That doesn't even make sense, therefore you have to be wrong.

    I like Slaw's point of view. Don't trade Bargs because Colangelo's dealings all turn to shit and therefore keep him away from all dealings with the Raptors? Haha.. if only it were that easy.. let's muzzle him for the next 10 years.. Championship Assured.
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    ebrian

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Rookie vino's Avatar
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    "The fact is this team has a lot of offensively gifted players and I'm not worried about the offense at all."
    This is not a fact. Have you seen Amir jacking up long bricks recently? Have you seen Calderon dribbles for 10+ seconds? Have you seen any sort of ball movement for more than 10 min at any given night?!

    I support all other points, and this team most definitely needs to get back at concentrating on D. So yeah, your main point is legit.

    As for trading Bargs, the logic tells me to swallow Lark Benson's reasoning... but my eyes can't wait that long. I wanted him gone since the beginning. Saw his first few games and the lack of effort was evident right then. We have waited for too long.

    Free Raps Fans!

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    There is only none God? That doesn't even make sense, therefore you have to be wrong.

    I like Slaw's point of view. Don't trade Bargs because Colangelo's dealings all turn to shit and therefore keep him away from all dealings with the Raptors? Haha.. if only it were that easy.. let's muzzle him for the next 10 years.. Championship Assured.
    lol, my attempt at atheistic humour failed miserably....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote vino wrote: View Post
    "The fact is this team has a lot of offensively gifted players and I'm not worried about the offense at all."
    This is not a fact. Have you seen Amir jacking up long bricks recently? Have you seen Calderon dribbles for 10+ seconds? Have you seen any sort of ball movement for more than 10 min at any given night?!
    Actually it is fact. Don't dwell on guys like Amir Johnson to argue the point. Next you'll tell me how bad Dominic McGuire is. Duh. I was referring to guys like Calderon, Lowry, DeRozan, Kleiza, even Lucas. Each of these guys are capable of going off for 20+ points while having a fairly efficient ball game. More minutes and experience will help guys like Ross and Valanciunas to have similar offensive abilities. Ball movement has more to do with Casey's offensive sets than offensive giftedness. This team needs to focus on defense and the scoring will come.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I don't trust Bryan to make the right decision either. I'd rather wait until the end of the season where we hopefully have a different GM making the calls. But assuming Bryan does consider trading Bargnani, then I'd prefer it to be sooner than later.

    If you are talking about flipping Bargnani for franchise player X, then you would have to assume that there is a franchise player that can be even traded for. Waiting for that to happen is as likely as winning the lottery I'm sure and I understand that point, but keeping Bargnani could impact guys like JV, Lowry and DeMar (assuming they remain as the core) negatively.

    Bargnani is still being coddled and that relationship between GM/player or coach/player has to make others on the team question what's going on. Trading him now would most likely improve the culture of the team which is probably more important at this point then trying to win the 'lets trade for a superstar sweepstakes'.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    The only advantage that I can see of Colangelo being the one who trades Bargnani is that Colangelo loves Bargnani, and when you love something you won't just trade it for Alonzo Mourning, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams and be done with it. A new GM might come in here and just cut Bargnani loose on the first offer he gets.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    The only advantage that I can see of Colangelo being the one who trades Bargnani is that Colangelo loves Bargnani, and when you love something you won't just trade it for Alonzo Mourning, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams and be done with it. A new GM might come in here and just cut Bargnani loose on the first offer he gets.
    It's scary to think of who Bryan values in the league though. Bryan loves nice guys and not necessarily talented ones. And my guess is that Stefanski ends up being our next GM - don't forget, he's the one that fleeced the Raptors in that Carter trade.

  8. #28
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    keeping Bargnani could impact guys like JV, Lowry and DeMar (assuming they remain as the core) negatively.

    Bargnani is still being coddled and that relationship between GM/player or coach/player has to make others on the team question what's going on. Trading him now would most likely improve the culture of the team which is probably more important at this point then trying to win the 'lets trade for a superstar sweepstakes'.
    This is an attitue that I don't really understand. You don't develop a 'winning culture' unless you actually, you know, win games. And you don't win games in the NBA without talent. The team's 'culture' is just a tired sports cliche rehashed by writers to fill their quotas. The only way to improve the 'culture' of the team is to start winning games, and the Raps need more talent on their roster to facilitate that. There are sooo many examples of this.

    the raps before VC.
    The clips before griffin.
    OKC/Seattle before Durant.
    Minny before Love.
    Brooklyn/Jersey before Williams.

    It goes on and on. These teams didn't turn around because of a 'culture change', they turned around because they got some players that began winning them games. I mean the Clips have the worst owner in the game and their coach is considered one of the worst in the league, but as soon as Griffin started doing his thing and Chris Paul was acquired, suddenly the team is attracting free agents who otherwise wouldn't have considered the Clips in the slightest. On the flip side, the Bucks are one of the hardest working teams in the league, Skiles gets them to play solid D every year and I haven't heard anything about their having a 'losing culture' despite years of playoff misses and first round exits. Ditto pistons, they problems relate to their roster and their GM's inability to hand out a reasonable contract, not their 'culture'.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    This is an attitue that I don't really understand. You don't develop a 'winning culture' unless you actually, you know, win games. And you don't win games in the NBA without talent. The team's 'culture' is just a tired sports cliche rehashed by writers to fill their quotas. The only way to improve the 'culture' of the team is to start winning games, and the Raps need more talent on their roster to facilitate that. There are sooo many examples of this.

    the raps before VC.
    The clips before griffin.
    OKC/Seattle before Durant.
    Minny before Love.
    Brooklyn/Jersey before Williams.

    It goes on and on. These teams didn't turn around because of a 'culture change', they turned around because they got some players that began winning them games. I mean the Clips have the worst owner in the game and their coach is considered one of the worst in the league, but as soon as Griffin started doing his thing and Chris Paul was acquired, suddenly the team is attracting free agents who otherwise wouldn't have considered the Clips in the slightest. On the flip side, the Bucks are one of the hardest working teams in the league, Skiles gets them to play solid D every year and I haven't heard anything about their having a 'losing culture' despite years of playoff misses and first round exits. Ditto pistons, they problems relate to their roster and their GM's inability to hand out a reasonable contract, not their 'culture'.
    I agree, but what I'm saying is that I believe that Bargnani brings out a negative energy to the team, and by eliminating him now we would be a better team. I may be wrong here but if I was a player and I saw the type of treatment a guy like Bargnani got then I would be pissed, and I might start playing poorly since that's what the franchise values.

    At least that's how it typically works in a regular office environment. When an employee who slacks off gets promoted it really brings morale down for the rest of the employees. Once that employee leaves/quits/gets fired, the morale improves and the team works better.

    I'm just an outsider though. I have no idea if this is how the players feel, and if they don't then your plan makes sense. However as a fan I hate what Bargnani represents, and want him gone sooner than later.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    The only advantage that I can see of Colangelo being the one who trades Bargnani is that Colangelo loves Bargnani, and when you love something you won't just trade it for Alonzo Mourning, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams and be done with it. A new GM might come in here and just cut Bargnani loose on the first offer he gets.
    A new GM would not want to start his mandate by doing a Carter-like deal for Bargs. And again, given that you're going to have to take back significant salary to unload Bargs, I don't want Colangelo tying the team to a big commitment. We don't need another $10 million/year replacement level player. We already have Bargs and Derozan. No need to replace one of them with another guy who is the same.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I was referring to guys like Calderon, Lowry, DeRozan, Kleiza, even Lucas. Each of these guys are capable of going off for 20+ points while having a fairly efficient ball game.
    Sometimes I wonder if people here even watch basketball. In what world is Linas Kleiza, and ESPECIALLY John Lucas, capable of going off for an efficient 20? John Lucas has ALWAYS been a fringe NBA player and basically every team in the league has 5-8 guys who can score better than him. So if he is indeed part of our great offense, than every team in the league must be on the verge of a dynasty.

  12. #32
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    i dislike how BC has been thrown under the bus. In a lot of situations i believe he's made excellent decisions mainly being the draft. He has had his "mistakes" as being a gm but at the time we all thought jermaine oneal was going to workout for us, turk i think we thought he would help (minus the crazy contract.) Being where we are located we have to over pay for free agents and will continue to have to until we are a championship contending team where players want to be here to win. As for his draft record i'd say he's done a pretty good job with all of our picks as of late (demar, ed, JV) its too soon to say but i would say he's made the best decisions considering our drafting position.

    Bargs is terrible i believe we are all aware of that i even question his offence, some of the shots he take are just ugly and forced, there's no reading the defence its "I'm going to dribble and pull up and see what happens." I don't know what we could get for him but i would be happy if he was a part or main part of a josh smith or amare deal. also i would not be opposed to getting some picks even if we didn't keep them they are (bryans favorite word) assets.

  13. #33
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Didn't get a chance to respond last night, so I'll try to tackle a bunch of objections at once here. But let me just state that the reason I included the (probably) in the title was because we, as fans, of course have no idea what BC could get for Bargs right now just as we have no idea what he could get for him a year from now. It's simply my personal opinion that dumping him for spare parts isn't going to help the club long term.



    I agree that trading the team's youth would be a step backwards, but that's exactly why including Bargs in any such deal is essential: it minimizes the amount of youth going the other way. If the team traded Bargs at next year's deadline for example, they could easilly include their 2015 first rounder, a young guy like Ross, Bargs and maybe Ed Davis (depending entirely on what calibre of player is being traded for and what position they play, etc). That would keep a Val/DD/Lowry combo intact while adding a potential franchise player.

    As for the ability to resign the player, I think it depends far more on the quality of the team than it does on the city. If a player gets here, is surrounded by enough talent that complements them and sees they have a chance to compete for a deep playoff run, there's a very good chance they'll resign. I'm not worried about that aspect of it.

    And yes, the odds of the one of these deals coming up ARE slim, there's no denying that. But are they worse than hoping DD or JV develop into a franchise guy in 2-3 years? Worse than praying a free agent will sign here, or that the team will win the lottery? How else do you see the team landing a franchise guy?




    The key thing here is that by no means is Bargs the key piece being traded by the Raps, so his trade value declining is essentially irrelevant. Bargs would be the throw-in, filler contract that evens out the contract values being exchanged and helps fill the void left by a likely 20ppg type scorer while the young guys develop, not the centre-piece of the trade. What teams really want is flexibility (which Barg' deal gives, with likely 1.5-2 years left on it when traded), and a bunch of youth they can develop.

    I say have him come off the bench, start Ed Davis. Bargs can jack up shots with the second unit, his defense will be less of an issue there, and you keep his contract in your back pocket in case you need it. And if nothing comes up, you can dump him as easilly then for spare parts as now.

    I understand the 'losing culture' argument, but personally I think that's one of those bullshit sports cliches that needs to die. Skilled players win games, nothing else matters nearly as much. It's only a 'losing culture' until a player comes along that can drag a franchise out of irrelevance. We've already seen it once with VC in Toronto, but there are countless other examples of franchises that didn't matter until they landed a superstar.




    I just wanted to include this because I saw this response popped up a few times.

    Let me be clear: Bargs is NOT the main attraction of any such future trade. As I said above, he's the cap filler / temporary attraction that the other GM uses to defend his trade. The youth and flexibility of a soon-to-be-expiring deal are what matters. Any trade for a franchise player would have to likely include Ross, a future first rounder, and possibly more. My point is that I don't see such a trade being completed without Bargnani's deal because the Raps don't have any other contracts on their books that would be appealing to another GM who needs to have all-star type money coming back his way to complete a deal (unless you want to give up Lowry or DeRozan, which you'd only want to do if you're getting a top-5 player at their respective positions).

    As for what kind of deals BC can swing, yes he could probably get something semi-useful for Bargs, but again what's the point? Unless you believe that Lowry/DD/Val is a deep playoff core down the road, then all you're doing by dumping Bargs is treading water. On top of that, you could just as easilly dump him for spare parts next year (in fact it'd probably easier since his contract will be shorter the longer you wait). In my opinion dumping him now is just bad asset management.
    you've pretty much convinced me. I can buy that teams will look at bargnani's contract as flexibility in a bit, I still think it is improbable that we will find a trading partner, but hey let's look at what's going on with everyone else before we have that discussion.

    Im just curious? Do you see dwane casey bringing bargnani off the bench, this is infuriating.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Sometimes I wonder if people here even watch basketball. In what world is Linas Kleiza, and ESPECIALLY John Lucas, capable of going off for an efficient 20? John Lucas has ALWAYS been a fringe NBA player and basically every team in the league has 5-8 guys who can score better than him. So if he is indeed part of our great offense, than every team in the league must be on the verge of a dynasty.
    You've got an interesting imagination, but unfortunately no one actually said these guys will average 20 points per night. The Raptors are still the bad team you see before us. After all I did project this team to win their 5th game in January.

    What would you say is an efficient night of scoring? A 50%+ shooting night? I'd say 50% is super efficient.. 45% is probably enough but I did a query for 50%+.

    John Lucas III (3): http://bkref.com/tiny/F6yky
    Linas Kleiza (23): http://bkref.com/tiny/LhWcq
    Jose Calderon (29): http://bkref.com/tiny/QqJWk
    Kyle Lowry (20): http://bkref.com/tiny/TjE5D
    DeMar DeRozan (42): http://bkref.com/tiny/3uiTk
    Andrea Bargnani (83): http://bkref.com/tiny/2b2tF

    For arguments sake I've added Bargnani in there, but the 5 are above and we still have JV and Ross. JV's already done it once, Ross had a 19 point game two nights ago on 9 of 17 shooting. Give each of these guys 2-3 years and check their occurrences again.

    Btw, awesome tool I just found. I've always known about the game finder at B-R.com but not the ability to pull up specific players and run queries on every game they've each played. Pretty awesome..
    your pal,
    ebrian

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