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Thread: The Toronto Media advises us not to panic. Are the Raptors where they need to be?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Just because fans have higher expectations for the season doesn't mean that those expectations are realistic or should set the bar.

    I'd like to point out that oddsmakers (who, despite what you may think, know a shitload more about professional sports and about the NBA than any of us posting here do) put the Raps between about 32 and 34 wins across many books.

    So who do you think had the more realistic expectations, the people who make billions of dollars taking money from people with high expectations, or the fans?

    http://www.beyondthebets.com/odds-co...s-sportsbooks/

    It's early in the season, the schedule has been rough and the team isn't performing up to par, but so what? Why does this season matter aside from development? Let things play out, if they're still in the basement at the all-star break and haven't shown signs of improving, then you can argue for drastic changes. Until then, any knee-jerk reactions are just going to set the team back further.
    wow you sound like bc. every season is a god damn rebuilding and development season. this year will be bargs year. etc, etc. fuck that.

    losing sucks. constant ridicule, watching a team play so badly. 4 years running. 5 years if you count being blown out by orlando.

    people say as a fan of the team you should always back them. but what if the team shows you no respect by constantly signing and overpaying bad players, never making the needed big changes to get back to playoffs and a winning record.

    and with the above replies, yea, BC hyped us up so much.

  2. #22
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    I don't know how much to put into Hollinger's Power Rankings, but I've found by the end of the season (in the past) they usually pan out to reflect the final standings with relative accuracy. That said, I've noticed he currently has the Raptors ranked #23 in the league, a sliver behind the 76ers who are over .500, and firmly ahead of Dallas. Not saying #23 is great, but I think it reflects that the Raps are certainly not as bad as their record reflects. Aside from the game against Houston, and playing Memphis who is currently the best team in the league (and on the second night of a back to back) the Raps have been in pretty much every game. That's respectable in my books. I'm not thrilled about their record or their recent efforts, but I'm guessing morale is low right now after so many heartbreaking losses in the final minutes of a number of their games this season. As the team develops together in the coming months, I suspect they'll learn to close-out those close games and the wins will improve. Will they make the playoffs? I doubt it. But by the end of the season they'll give us all just enough hope to look forward to next year so they can subject us to the same experience all over again. The Raps aren't a horrible team, but they aren't a great team either. They are mediocre. And that's really the problem because one of the hardest things to do in the NBA is convince a difference maker to join a team with a history of mediocrity (and in the Raps case a team located in different country to boot). In summation? I'm not going to 'panic', I'm just going to continue expecting this team to be what they are: mediocre. That doesn't mean I can't be entertained though. As heartbreaking as the close losses have been, they were nail-biting, and I was entertained. Jonas has been a thrill to watch, ED has shown flashes of what he's capable of, and I'm curious to see how Ross develops. The wins will come. Maybe not in bunches, but the Raps should end the season where everyone pretty much expected them to be. (Lesson: never expect any more than what's expected)

  3. #23
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    Default Doug Smith

    Doug Smith has zero credibility. He never criticizes the organization, no matter how bad things get. I think he associates a measured reaction with professionalism. Unfortunately, this really gets ridiculous at times.

    I vividly recall him defending the Vince Carter trade when it went down.
    "We can't judge the trade until we see what Babcock gets out of those draft picks" was his reasoning. Only years later, when Babcock is gone, does he admit the Raptors got fleeced.

    If the Raptors traded Valanciunas for Darko tomorrow, Dough Smith would defend Colangelo.
    "Let's wait and see" he would say. "You can't judge the trade for at least 20 games."

    I don't even have to read his blog to know what his reaction will be to even the most blatant mistakes on the part of management.
    "Fans need to calm down. Lets wait and see."
    Only in retrospect, when the guilty party has been fired, will he point out any failings.

    The facts that he spouts this stuff in an arrogant and patronizing tone just makes him even more unreadable.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    lol, the Doug making the koolaid instead of drinking it, nice one Craiger.



    The facts are that Bryan traded away this years pick, and protected it in such a way that he SHOWED to ALL that he intended on being 8th seed.


    ...or he is an imbecile. (which of course is possible at this point)

  5. #25
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    I can't believe how many people in this thread are saying they're matching their expectations to what the organization stated theirs were. I'm about to get rude here, so forgive me because this is just venting.

    Do you guys take all of your opinions from press releases? Are you fucking kidding me?

    It's BC's fucking job to hype the team, sell tickets and get you to watch games and buy merchandise. HIS FUCKING JOB. What in the fuck did you expect them to do, tell you this season was probably gonna be rough and not worth watching? What kind of message would it send to the players if they WEREN'T aiming for the playoffs? I don't doubt that if BC had've declared this another building year or something, you'd be complaining about that too. Christ it's amazing how impossible to please you guys are.

    I'm genuinely sorry if you drank the kool-aid and now you want something a little tastier, but it's your own fucking fault for being completely blind to the realities of the team. I want BC gone as badly as the next guy, but it has everything to do with his performance and NOTHING to do with the 'expectations' he sets up for the team. Literally nothing that comes from that man's mouth should be trusted or taken without a mountain of salt. After 7 years with the team, how anyone can not realize that is completely beyond me.

    As an aside:
    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    As for the odds maker I think its important to remember their job isn't to get it right. Its to try and predict how wrong the public is willing to be. In gambling the house never needs to be right and they don't try to be. Now I don't think there is anything wrong with using their over-unders or spreads to get an unbias opinion of roughly what others think of the team, but its not a statement. Its a prediction of where they can draw the most bets.
    Exactly right. And since the numbers they post are clearly designed to entrap people who believe the team will be better than 32-34 wins, that means most books think that they'll actually perform worse.

  6. #26
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    Sorry Lark. But Bryan Colangelo actually came out last season and flat out told the media that this was not going to be a good team and didn't expect them to make the playoffs. So no, he didn't hype the team one bit.

    After this off-season, he said the goal this season was to make the playoffs. He traded our first-round pick away as well which clearly indicates he was doing whatever it takes to win. So far he has failed.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quotes

    If last season was about developing, Bryan Colangelo says this season is about winning.

    The Toronto Raptors held its annual media day Monday to kick off training camp in what the team’s general manager called a “completely different atmosphere” from last season.

    “You go into a season excited about what the prospects are,” Colangelo said. “I cannot say that I went into last season excited about what the prospects were.”

    http://o.canada.com/2012/10/01/toron...about-winning/

    I can dig up more quotes if you like.

    “(Last season) knowing that Jonas wasn’t coming over, knowing that it was going to be a struggle to win games, knowing it was part of the long grind of letting the young players play and learn and develop. . .,” Colangelo said.


    The GM said this year’s new-look roster reminds him of the team he assembled in his first full season in Toronto in 2006-07. Andrea Bargnani was a rookie on that squad that went on to win the Atlantic Division and play New Jersey in the first round of the playoffs.

    “This team seems to have a lot of those same characteristics,” Colangelo said. “It just seems to me, with the newness of the group and the chemistry we’ve seen, the commitment of the players all coming together, spending a lot of time in Toronto. . . there’s that feeling there could be something special abut this group but time will tell.”
    Last edited by BD12; Thu Nov 29th, 2012 at 12:31 PM.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    It's hard to say it wasn't me, when the pick is no longer in your right pocket.


    (for someone who has conglomerated so many assets, funny that the only thing worth anything are the unused picks)

  8. #28
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    Quote BD12 wrote: View Post
    Sorry Lark. But Bryan Colangelo actually came out last season and flat out told the media that this was not going to be a good team and didn't expect them to make the playoffs. So no, he didn't hype the team one bit.

    After this off-season, he said the goal this season was to make the playoffs. He traded our first-round pick away as well which clearly indicates he was doing whatever it takes to win. So far he has failed.
    /facepalm

    He traded away what was expected to be a mid lottery pick in a terrible draft for one of the best contracts in the NBA. Even if the goal wasn't to make the playoffs, that's still a good move.

    And once again, OF COURSE HE SAID THE GOAL WAS TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. On paper, this team should be fighting for a spot at the end of the year. Hilariously, the majority of fans on these very forums believed that to be true. But sometimes players get hurt, your 'franchise guy' doesn't perform, shit happens. It happens to a bunch of teams every year, and just about every fringe playoff team in the sport talks about making the playoffs, because again, IT'S THEIR JOB, not only to get fans in the seats but to set the bar high for the players and get them motivated.

    You can bash the man all you want for his performance as a GM, but I can't believe people will throw him under the bus for stating the team should be fighting for the playoffs when, on paper and if everything had broken right, they should be. That's just insane.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    At this point, I think its fair for fans to go by the record. We don't seem to have one player that has a shot at the allstar game. Not one after Bryan took over a team with a player that was a perennial allstar. After 7 years. Not a pick, not an allstar.


    At what point do you admit that this guy sells used cars?

  10. #30
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    /facepalm

    He traded away what was expected to be a mid lottery pick in a terrible draft for one of the best contracts in the NBA. Even if the goal wasn't to make the playoffs, that's still a good move.

    And once again, OF COURSE HE SAID THE GOAL WAS TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. On paper, this team should be fighting for a spot at the end of the year. Hilariously, the majority of fans on these very forums believed that to be true. But sometimes players get hurt, your 'franchise guy' doesn't perform, shit happens. It happens to a bunch of teams every year, and just about every fringe playoff team in the sport talks about making the playoffs, because again, IT'S THEIR JOB, not only to get fans in the seats but to set the bar high for the players and get them motivated.

    You can bash the man all you want for his performance as a GM, but I can't believe people will throw him under the bus for stating the team should be fighting for the playoffs when, on paper and if everything had broken right, they should be. That's just insane.
    Where exactly did I say he was wrong for saying that? He can say whatever he wants to be honest. I'm more upset that he accelerated the rebuild. But facepalm all you want. Trading away a first-round pick for a player that isn't even an all-star is never a good move for a franchise that lacks talent and has trouble attracting decent players in free agency.

    This team is in a much worse position now. 2nd last in the conference with a west coast trip coming up and without a draft pick.

    And I just copied and pasted some quotes where BC actually said the team was going to struggle last season. So yes, he did say last year the team was going to more or less suck.

    And to add -- I'm sorry but even on paper this team looked nothing like a playoff team especially with Landry Fields starting and a project centre in Val.
    Last edited by BD12; Thu Nov 29th, 2012 at 12:49 PM.

  11. #31
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    The team has played much better with Bargnani than without. Conversely, the team has played worse with Derozan on the floor than without him. The problem with this team is its wings. It has solid point guards and solid bigs, but its wings are terrible. Losing Anderson has actually really hurt the Raptors: he was playing reasonably well, as oppose to the awfulness that has been Fields, DeRozan, Kleiza, and Dominic McGuire.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote BD12 wrote: View Post
    Where exactly did I say he was wrong for saying that? He can say whatever he wants to be honest. I'm more upset that he accelerated the rebuild. But facepalm all you want. Trading away a first-round pick for a player that isn't even an all-star is never a good move for a franchise that lacks talent and has trouble attracting decent players in free agency.

    This team is in a much worse position now. 2nd last in the conference with a west coast trip coming up and without a draft pick.

    And I just copied and pasted some quotes where BC actually said the team was going to struggle last season. So yes, he did say last year the team was going to more or less suck.

    And to add -- I'm sorry but even on paper this team looked nothing like a playoff team especially with Landry Fields starting and a project centre in Val.
    Getting Lowry was a steal. Draft picks rarely turn out to be borderline all stars **Derozan, Eddy, Bargs, the list goes on

  13. #33
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    Getting Lowry was a steal. Draft picks rarely turn out to be borderline all stars **Derozan, Eddy, Bargs, the list goes on
    Is it a steal though? I mean the Raptors are 3-13 and have lost five straight with Lowry back in the lineup. That draft pick if the Raptors stay where they are could possibly land a potential franchise player in Shabazz Muhammed.

    Don't get me wrong. Lowry is a good player but he's not an all-star. If he was, this team would not be ten games under .500. He fought with McHale last season and has dealt with injuries throughout his career too.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote BD12 wrote: View Post
    Is it a steal though? I mean the Raptors are 3-13 and have lost five straight with Lowry back in the lineup. That draft pick if the Raptors stay where they are could possibly land a potential franchise player in Shabazz Muhammed.

    Don't get me wrong. Lowry is a good player but he's not an all-star. If he was, this team would not be ten games under .500. He fought with McHale last season and has dealt with injuries throughout his career too.
    Draft picks are LARGE investments that take YEARS. Lowry is a steal for that draft pick, yes.
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  15. #35
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    If Lowry doesn't sign an extension next year, it's no longer a steal.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  16. #36
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    Quote BD12 wrote: View Post
    Where exactly did I say he was wrong for saying that? He can say whatever he wants to be honest. I'm more upset that he accelerated the rebuild. But facepalm all you want. Trading away a first-round pick for a player that isn't even an all-star is never a good move for a franchise that lacks talent and has trouble attracting decent players in free agency.

    This team is in a much worse position now. 2nd last in the conference with a west coast trip coming up and without a draft pick.

    And I just copied and pasted some quotes where BC actually said the team was going to struggle last season. So yes, he did say last year the team was going to more or less suck.

    And to add -- I'm sorry but even on paper this team looked nothing like a playoff team especially with Landry Fields starting and a project centre in Val.
    Ok, first off, I never said a word about what he told fans before last season, I was talking only about how he hyped the team up this season and how it's his job to do so. He's not going to say every year's goal is to make the playoffs, especially when there's no chance of that happening, because that greatly diminishes his ability to be taken seriously. What the raps DID do the season before was push the Jonas angle really hard as well as the youth development angle. There's always some form of snake-oil to peddle. The man might be a bad GM, but he's not an idiot when it comes to manipulating a fan base, that's for sure.

    As for trading for Lowry being a bad move, I completely disagree. Look at our current players. Are Bargs, DD, or Davis better than lowry (too early to tell for Ross and JV obviously)? I would say no, so how is taking a sure-fire good player on a superb contract a worse option than gambling on yet another lottery pick in a draft that experts are declaring weak and devoid of franchise talent? Even if you wanted to make a trade for an all-star PG, sending Lowry back would be a FAR more valuable chip than a 1st round pick.

    Lastly, I fully agree that the team (to me anyway) didn't look like a playoff team on paper. But just about every season preview you could find said the same thing about the raps: they could squeak in if everything broke right. And that's the same at the start of every season: 24 teams or so look like a playoff team 'on paper', because on paper essentially means if everything goes according to plan. The reality sets in once the season starts. Shockingly, (and I'm not directing this at you), some people ignore these previews, and the opinions of those posting on these forums, and chose instead of base their expectations on what the team's GM told them. Blows my mind.

  17. #37
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    If Lowry doesn't sign an extension next year, it's no longer a steal.
    I think if the raps are lottery-bound next year at the deadline, Lowry gets dealt. That contract would be a cakewalk to unload for a solid asset. If they're headed for the playoffs and things are looking up, good chance he resigns. But you're right, they can't let him walk for nothing.

    What I worry about more is handing him a max contract to get him to say. In a league full of amazing point guards, he's not worth it (though it's early to be making any snap judgements on his value obviously).

  18. #38
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I would have no problem with giving the "interim GM" title back to Embry. Remember how much cap space he cleared in preparation for Colangelo to take over?

    This team needs to clean house (players and management), collect draft picks, and completely start over. Embry's the perfect person for the job and is already on staff!
    The problem is that if they were going to that, they should have:

    1. tanked outright last year, especially in a lockout shortened season with their #1 pick playing overseas

    2. traded away every old and/or expiring asset who won't be part of the future core of this team in 3-5 years (either last trade deadline or this past offseason)

    3. never have even considered Nash

    4. never signed Fields to such a bad contract that hurts flexibility (especially in light of #3)

    5. kept their 2013 1st round pick and not bothered with Lowry (especially if he proves to be an overemotional hero-ball head case)

    6. last year and this year would still be part of the RE-building process, with all the young players expected to be part of the long-term core being spoonfed playing time to develop individually and together as a core

    7. next season would have been the first BUILDING season (BC essentially tried to fast-track the otherwise perfectly good process by about 2 seasons)


    I assume that MLSE fears the reaction of the casual / fair-weather fans, should they decide to totally blow it up and let BC, Gherardini, Casey and the old-regime players go (ie: Bargnani, Calderon), to do yet another complete rebuild... not that it wouldn't be a good thing...
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Nov 29th, 2012 at 03:41 PM.

  19. #39
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    If Lowry doesn't sign an extension next year, it's no longer a steal.
    The conditions on the pick also handcuff BC (or a replacement) from using a 1st round pick in potential trades for quite possibly the next 6 years! That is one less significant asset (or multiple assets, since he could have traded 2013, 2015 and 2017 1st round picks, theoretically) he has to work with to reshape this team, either this season or anytime between now and 2018 (depending when they actually lose their pick). The opportunity cost needs to be factored into the pro/cons evalutation of the trade, especially with all the uncertainty around what/when the opportunity cost(s) will actually be felt.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Nov 29th, 2012 at 03:42 PM.

  20. #40
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I assume that MLSE fears the reaction of the casual / fair-weather fans, should they decide to totally blow it up and let BC, Gherardini, Casey and the old-regime players go (ie: Bargnani, Calderon), to do yet another complete rebuild... not that it wouldn't be a good thing...
    With the way this season is unfolding, MLSE might be forced into a complete rebuild next summer.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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