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Thread: The Toronto Media advises us not to panic. Are the Raptors where they need to be?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    I can't believe how many people in this thread are saying they're matching their expectations to what the organization stated theirs were. I'm about to get rude here, so forgive me because this is just venting.

    Do you guys take all of your opinions from press releases? Are you fucking kidding me?

    It's BC's fucking job to hype the team, sell tickets and get you to watch games and buy merchandise. HIS FUCKING JOB. What in the fuck did you expect them to do, tell you this season was probably gonna be rough and not worth watching? What kind of message would it send to the players if they WEREN'T aiming for the playoffs? I don't doubt that if BC had've declared this another building year or something, you'd be complaining about that too. Christ it's amazing how impossible to please you guys are.

    I'm genuinely sorry if you drank the kool-aid and now you want something a little tastier, but it's your own fucking fault for being completely blind to the realities of the team. I want BC gone as badly as the next guy, but it has everything to do with his performance and NOTHING to do with the 'expectations' he sets up for the team. Literally nothing that comes from that man's mouth should be trusted or taken without a mountain of salt. After 7 years with the team, how anyone can not realize that is completely beyond me.
    You are completely misconstruing the point that others and I are making. You are either being intentionally obtuse or not paying attention.

    It's not about "drinking the kool-aid" or getting my opinions from press releases. If the organization states its goals publicly at the start of each season and, each season, fails miserably to achieve those goals, then they are not living up to their own standards. They should be judged accordingly for that failure.

    Again, I knew this team was going to be garbage. They added one legit NBA vet to a 20-win team. But, that's not the point. The point is Colangelo and company purposefully changed course - "accelerated the rebuild" - for the purpose of achieving wins and being competitive this season. That was their plan. Not mine. Their plan has failed.

    It has failed just like the "Phoenix North" plan, the Jermaine O'Neal plan (the best team Colangelo had "ever assembled"), the Turkoglu plan, and the death march plan of last year ("I wish I could go on a year long scouting trip" season). It has failed just like all the trade exceptions and everything else under this regime. When a CEO constantly fails to achieve his stated goals you don't go, "well, I knew it wouldn't work anyway, so who cares", you go, "why can't this go do anything right?" and you fire him.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    You are completely misconstruing the point that others and I are making. You are either being intentionally obtuse or not paying attention.

    It's not about "drinking the kool-aid" or getting my opinions from press releases. If the organization states its goals publicly at the start of each season and, each season, fails miserably to achieve those goals, then they are not living up to their own standards. They should be judged accordingly for that failure.

    Again, I knew this team was going to be garbage. They added one legit NBA vet to a 20-win team. But, that's not the point. The point is Colangelo and company purposefully changed course - "accelerated the rebuild" - for the purpose of achieving wins and being competitive this season. That was their plan. Not mine. Their plan has failed.

    It has failed just like the "Phoenix North" plan, the Jermaine O'Neal plan (the best team Colangelo had "ever assembled"), the Turkoglu plan, and the death march plan of last year ("I wish I could go on a year long scouting trip" season). It has failed just like all the trade exceptions and everything else under this regime. When a CEO constantly fails to achieve his stated goals you don't go, "well, I knew it wouldn't work anyway, so who cares", you go, "why can't this go do anything right?" and you fire him.
    I have to agree.

    The accelerated rebuild did not have to mean a playoff team but it should have been at least competitive.

    BC has yet again failed.... miserably.

    I always thought the 3 years extension (final year team option) was fair. I thought the final option should be picked up. Now, I am undecided as it is still early but I would strongly lean against not picking up the final year. After 7 years and what is likely to be 5 seasons of no playoffs, enough is enough.

    I think we have reached the point of where the excuses have run out. You can only blame others or circumstance for so long.

    For the record, I don't think BC is a bad GM. I think he'll be hired fairly soon after his stay in Toronto runs its course. I just think there comes a point in time when it is best for everyone to go their own way. Toronto and BC appear to be reaching that point - faster than I thought.
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  3. #43
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    lets bring the attention back to doug smith bashing. Everyone should write in their thoughts on BC/AB to his weekend mail bag.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Turbozone's Avatar
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    At least we have Jonas!

    THE COMPLETE TURBOZONE COLLECTION: www.turbozone.ca

  5. #45
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    You are completely misconstruing the point that others and I are making. You are either being intentionally obtuse or not paying attention.

    It's not about "drinking the kool-aid" or getting my opinions from press releases. If the organization states its goals publicly at the start of each season and, each season, fails miserably to achieve those goals, then they are not living up to their own standards. They should be judged accordingly for that failure.
    No, I fully understand your point. I just don't agree with the way you're making it.

    To me, expectations or goals set by the organization are irrelevant, and I think that framing this season's failure as an inability to meet those expectations is silly. You stated yourself that you didn't think the team would be that good, so I fail to see why you'd want to hold BC accountable to a standard you yourself disagree with.

    Just because BC called it an 'accelerated rebuild' doesn't mean that it is. This is still just a regular rebuild and if you take a step back and look at this season with that framework, things aren't nearly as bleak. It's unfair to judge the rebuilding efforts of the past two years 16 games into this season. Especially when Fields has barely played (and was apparently injured when he was), Lowry has either been hurt or playing hurt more often than not, and the team is handing out the bulk of it's minutes to inexperienced players, including starting a rookie center. You're essentially pre-judging the result without letting it play out because the GM got people's hopes up when he shouldn't have.

    edit: Let me put it another way. If BC had've made the exact same moves he did this offseason but had've simply told fans that the playoffs were a hope but not an expectation, then we'd just be talking about how the rookies are developing and speculating as to whether the team would be playing better when healthy.
    Last edited by Lark Benson; Thu Nov 29th, 2012 at 10:27 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    No, I fully understand your point. I just don't agree with the way you're making it.

    To me, expectations or goals set by the organization are irrelevant, and I think that framing this season's failure as an inability to meet those expectations is silly. You stated yourself that you didn't think the team would be that good, so I fail to see why you'd want to hold BC accountable to a standard you yourself disagree with.

    Just because BC called it an 'accelerated rebuild' doesn't mean that it is. This is still just a regular rebuild and if you take a step back and look at this season with that framework, things aren't nearly as bleak. It's unfair to judge the rebuilding efforts of the past two years 16 games into this season. Especially when Fields has barely played (and was apparently injured when he was), Lowry has either been hurt or playing hurt more often than not, and the team is handing out the bulk of it's minutes to inexperienced players, including starting a rookie center. You're essentially pre-judging the result without letting it play out because the GM got people's hopes up when he shouldn't have.
    what is wrong with you man?

  7. #47
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    what is wrong with you man?
    Lots, just like you. Care to elaborate?

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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Lots, just like you. Care to elaborate?
    indeed.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    No, I fully understand your point. I just don't agree with the way you're making it.

    To me, expectations or goals set by the organization are irrelevant, and I think that framing this season's failure as an inability to meet those expectations is silly. You stated yourself that you didn't think the team would be that good, so I fail to see why you'd want to hold BC accountable to a standard you yourself disagree with.

    Just because BC called it an 'accelerated rebuild' doesn't mean that it is. This is still just a regular rebuild and if you take a step back and look at this season with that framework, things aren't nearly as bleak. It's unfair to judge the rebuilding efforts of the past two years 16 games into this season. Especially when Fields has barely played (and was apparently injured when he was), Lowry has either been hurt or playing hurt more often than not, and the team is handing out the bulk of it's minutes to inexperienced players, including starting a rookie center. You're essentially pre-judging the result without letting it play out because the GM got people's hopes up when he shouldn't have.

    edit: Let me put it another way. If BC had've made the exact same moves he did this offseason but had've simply told fans that the playoffs were a hope but not an expectation, then we'd just be talking about how the rookies are developing and speculating as to whether the team would be playing better when healthy.

    +1 how i feel too. Although i don't think it would take the sting out of the losses.

    Further to this, and this isn't an excuse for the losing more a reason for my continued optimism, is our schedule has been brutal for a young team. The travel strain mixed with the hard fought losses are taking a mental toll on our team that has no leaders. Our kids are being left to figure this out without guidance. Comparing our schedule to what a team like miami gets is disheartening.

    It is all on management to help these kids groa but they are being left to sink or swim on their own.

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    No, I fully understand your point. I just don't agree with the way you're making it.

    To me, expectations or goals set by the organization are irrelevant, and I think that framing this season's failure as an inability to meet those expectations is silly. You stated yourself that you didn't think the team would be that good, so I fail to see why you'd want to hold BC accountable to a standard you yourself disagree with.

    Just because BC called it an 'accelerated rebuild' doesn't mean that it is. This is still just a regular rebuild and if you take a step back and look at this season with that framework, things aren't nearly as bleak. It's unfair to judge the rebuilding efforts of the past two years 16 games into this season. Especially when Fields has barely played (and was apparently injured when he was), Lowry has either been hurt or playing hurt more often than not, and the team is handing out the bulk of it's minutes to inexperienced players, including starting a rookie center. You're essentially pre-judging the result without letting it play out because the GM got people's hopes up when he shouldn't have.

    edit: Let me put it another way. If BC had've made the exact same moves he did this offseason but had've simply told fans that the playoffs were a hope but not an expectation, then we'd just be talking about how the rookies are developing and speculating as to whether the team would be playing better when healthy.
    Accelerated building, rebuilding, building .... However you twist the concept, the fact is, this year's team has not performed remotely close to the expectations set out for this team. No one in that locker room and front office should sit and say "Yeah, we're pretty much on pace this year; yeee buddy." No one here should be saying "yeah, this is what I expected of the Raptors."

    Expectations set out by the organization ARE relevant, I'm sorry. I don't know how you can even twist that. The tone used to describe expectations last year were completely different. These expectations are also reflected on the moves they make. Last year, the signings included Aaron Gray, Rasual Butler and Anthony Carter. C'mon man. That itself basically tells you what to expect.

    This year was different. They gave up a future pick to acquire a starting point guard, pretty much tied up our cap with Landry Fields, got every "core player" back from last season, Valanciunas finally coming, 2 more rookies and a full training camp. The situation leads people to believe that this year should only be better than last year's.

    WE ARE ON PACE TO WIN 15 GAMES THIS SEASON. No one in their right mind can claim that this is what we should be expecting of the Raptors. We're not even on pace to beat last season's record. Can you really justify the frustrations?

    People's expectations are generated from what other people perceive, what the "experts" say, what the media says and especially from what the organization places. How exactly do you generate your opinion?
    “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

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  11. #51
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    Accelerated building, rebuilding, building .... However you twist the concept, the fact is, this year's team has not performed remotely close to the expectations set out for this team. No one in that locker room and front office should sit and say "Yeah, we're pretty much on pace this year; yeee buddy." No one here should be saying "yeah, this is what I expected of the Raptors."

    Expectations set out by the organization ARE relevant, I'm sorry. I don't know how you can even twist that.
    he isn't twisting it. he is saying that the team is doing how he figured they would do. another poster also said he thought they would be bad but the team placed higher expectations on itself then he did, so in his eyes are failing even though they are playing how he expected before the season.

    players and management have both stated this year was for continued growth and to fight for the final playoff spot. if you didn't think the team would meet those goals before the season started and still don't how can you criticize them for playing how you thought they would play.

    no team is going to say their goals are not to make the playoffs. what does that tell their fans.

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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    no team is going to say their goals are not to make the playoffs. what does that tell their fans.
    Exactly.

    Here's what the 'expectations and/or goals' for every team starting out the year sound like:

    Teams in the cellar: Our goal is to compete for the playoffs
    Fringe playoff teams: Our goal is to make the playoffs
    Last year's first round exits: Our goal is to advance in the playoffs
    Last year's second round exits and above: Our goal is to win the championship

    So if you're holding the team accountable relative to their stated goals, then by definition every team in the NBA that doesn't either overachieve or win a championship has failed that season.

    This goes for players too. Every year guys say they want to make the all-star team, they want to average a double double, they want to be the best in the game, etc etc etc. It goes on and on.

    Most importantly, it's all just bullshit. None of it means a damn thing, it's all talk. Just like the old saying 'everyone is undefeated in preseason', it's all just optimism and sunshine until the season starts. I'll say it again, any objective look at the team before the season started (and just about every single season preview, whether from sports media, bloggers of forum posters) said the same thing: IF everything breaks exactly right AND the players all stay healthy AND Bargs can regain his form from last year's stretch AND the kids improve, the Raps MIGHT fight for a playoff spot. Well, Bargs hasn't regained his form, and there have been injuries, so the team has been crap.

    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    People's expectations are generated from what other people perceive, what the "experts" say, what the media says and especially from what the organization places. How exactly do you generate your opinion?
    Pretty simple: I looked at the roster, saw we'd be starting a rookie defensive anchor, and giving minutes to players I had little faith in. If you're the type of person who actually listens to and believes what BC (or any GM/president/higher-up) says then frankly you either haven't been following sports for very long or you're just a sucker. Maybe try forming your own opinion instead of relying on what others tell you.

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    I advise the Toronto media to keep spinning. Maybe enroll in a spinning class or two. Eat your lunch while you do 360's in your swivel chair, spin, spin, spin... the more spinning the better the reality mixes.

    What the hell do these fans expect? Filling the ACC and buying the product entitles them to question??? Blasphemy, a little spin on the fork with a 50 loss season and tastes like a playoff season. Only one team can make it anyway, just sell them spin and when they got tired of it, spin it some more.


    I hear in Soviet Russia they are basing their National Basketball program on 3pt shooting centers. Guys are getting beaten when they rebound the ball too much. Word on the street is that the Soviets are going to be flooding the league with imitation Bargnani's soon. They are even teaching them to catch flies with their mouths while they watch the other team executing their offensive sets.
    Last edited by BasketballCrush; Fri Nov 30th, 2012 at 01:45 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Most importantly, it's all just bullshit. None of it means a damn thing, it's all talk. Just like the old saying 'everyone is undefeated in preseason', it's all just optimism and sunshine until the season starts. I'll say it again, any objective look at the team before the season started (and just about every single season preview, whether from sports media, bloggers of forum posters) said the same thing: IF everything breaks exactly right AND the players all stay healthy AND Bargs can regain his form from last year's stretch AND the kids improve, the Raps MIGHT fight for a playoff spot. Well, Bargs hasn't regained his form, and there have been injuries, so the team has been crap.

    Pretty simple: I looked at the roster, saw we'd be starting a rookie defensive anchor, and giving minutes to players I had little faith in. If you're the type of person who actually listens to and believes what BC (or any GM/president/higher-up) says then frankly you either haven't been following sports for very long or you're just a sucker. Maybe try forming your own opinion instead of relying on what others tell you.
    This will be my last post on this subject because it seems pointless but - one last shot:

    Competing for the playoffs was THE PLAN. It wasn't just words. It wasn't just bullshit. Colangelo traded a first round pick. That wasn't bullshit or a figment of my imagination or some marketing spin. It actually happened. Why did it happen? Because Colangelo wanted to "accelerate the rebuild" and "compete for the playoffs". It wasn't just spin. It was an ACTUAL PLAN. Jebus dude, he tried to sign Steve Nash. You think he wanted Nash to come here to finish in 12th place? Get real.

    Why sign Fields? To bring in someone to man the SF spot. If he wasn't serious about competing he could have gifted the job to Ross. And if it "was all just bullshit" and Colangelo knew the team would suck, then why not just use AA and McGuire. Better for tanking purposes.

    Again, his PLAN - not words. Put into action. Plan is failing. The fact you and I knew it would fail is a testament to how bad the PLAN was but it doesn't absolve Colangelo of responsibility for his PLAN. If you don't want to hold Colangelo responsible for his crappy agenda and instead get mad at fans for wanting to hold the GM, the architect of our current dilemna, accountable, then that's your call. But don't get mad at those of us pointing out the emperor has no clothes.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    This will be my last post on this subject because it seems pointless but - one last shot:

    Competing for the playoffs was THE PLAN. It wasn't just words. It wasn't just bullshit. Colangelo traded a first round pick. That wasn't bullshit or a figment of my imagination or some marketing spin. It actually happened. Why did it happen? Because Colangelo wanted to "accelerate the rebuild" and "compete for the playoffs". It wasn't just spin. It was an ACTUAL PLAN. Jebus dude, he tried to sign Steve Nash. You think he wanted Nash to come here to finish in 12th place? Get real.

    Why sign Fields? To bring in someone to man the SF spot. If he wasn't serious about competing he could have gifted the job to Ross. And if it "was all just bullshit" and Colangelo knew the team would suck, then why not just use AA and McGuire. Better for tanking purposes.

    Again, his PLAN - not words. Put into action. Plan is failing. The fact you and I knew it would fail is a testament to how bad the PLAN was but it doesn't absolve Colangelo of responsibility for his PLAN. If you don't want to hold Colangelo responsible for his crappy agenda and instead get mad at fans for wanting to hold the GM, the architect of our current dilemna, accountable, then that's your call. But don't get mad at those of us pointing out the emperor has no clothes.
    You're right, we're going to have to agree to disagree if you keep insisting on judging how the season will end after 16 games. Apparently you can see the future and I can't.

    I guess the Lakers have failed this season too huh? And the T-Wolves since their players keep getting hurt, their plan has obviously failed too. And on and on.

    This team could very easily turn it around and finish 10th in the conference, just outside a playoff spot. But I guess that'd be a failure too right, certainly reason enough to fire the GM?

    One more thing on the 'accelerated rebuild' too. BC didn't trade his youth for vets, he didn't mortgage the future. All he did was trade one shitty pick for one of the best contracts in basketball and overpay to bring in a free agent to fill a position of glaring need. He made two moves and his plan 'failed' due to injuries? Are you shitting me? You can't even judge the contribution of these acquisitions because they've barely played. All you're doing is jumping to conclusion and damning the man before the evidence is in.

    I dislike him as a GM as much as you do, but at least I'm fair and objective about it. Even if I concede that his plan failed, an objective look at the team shows that he didn't fuck the team over long-term in pursuit of the playoffs. I'd much rather have Lowry than this year's pick (he easily has more flipping value than that pick), and they're still stocked with young talent. By focussing on a goal that's irrelevant to the long-term future of the team, all you're doing is ignoring where the team really stands and what's actually important about the composition of the team in favour of judging it based on an arbitrary goal that's still 66 games down the road.

    Basically you're ignoring the forest and just focussing on the trees in front of you.

  16. #56
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    I totally agree with Doug Smith

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    I really don't understand this. DD is a much better player than he was, even a year ago. Ross now looks promising. Lowry is a very solid pg adjusting to a new team. Ed looks much better and V is the real deal.

    Some of the losses have been infuriating. The rotations have boggled the mind, bargs is completely selfish and infuriating. But... Teams do need to learn how to win close games. Particularly young teams. My expectations for this team was to win 30-40 games and hopefully challenge for the 8th spot. I also think that is still possible, and really I'll settle for them PLAYING like a playoff team by year end, even if they don't make it, as long as they grow.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Turbozone wrote: View Post
    At least we have Jonas!

    The amount of Love I have for this video knows no bounds.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  19. #59
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    Yes .

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    Doug Smith is a defacto employee for MLSE.

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