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Thread: Jose looks off Bargnani - Video

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    Default Jose looks off Bargnani - Video

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    A couple weeks ago in the “raps” section, somebody pointed out that Jose Calderon looks off Andrea Bargnani, I disagreed with them at the time but today saw an instance where Bargnani had sealed off a shorter defender and begged Jose for the ball only to see him go the other way, I would’ve liked to seen him call to space the floor and work that mismatch.

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    We have two solid backup PGs masquerading as starters. Turk's playmaking has been underrated by us, I think.

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    I signed up for the forum just to respond to this. I'm sick of people blaming Calderon for "looking off" Bargnani. First of all, Bargnani is posting up 15 feet from the basket, not a place he's ever been comfortable with the ball. Secondly, Roy Hibbert is hedging on him on one side, and Dunleavy on the other side. It's not a good pass to make.

    And maybe he's scared that it' a stupid pass. And he's right.

    I will concede that Calderon is not a good defender, but it's a ridiculous notion to say he's not good at running an offense. For all his weaknesses, he's one of the best players in the league at running an offense. It's a talent very few PG's have and one that most fans don't seem to be able to understand.

    And Ripp, the Raptors actually have two PGs that some people don't seem to understand would start for many teams in the league. I think both guys are being underrated by you.

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    Quote TIm W. wrote: View Post
    I signed up for the forum just to respond to this. I'm sick of people blaming Calderon for "looking off" Bargnani. First of all, Bargnani is posting up 15 feet from the basket, not a place he's ever been comfortable with the ball. Secondly, Roy Hibbert is hedging on him on one side, and Dunleavy on the other side. It's not a good pass to make.

    And maybe he's scared that it' a stupid pass. And he's right.

    I will concede that Calderon is not a good defender, but it's a ridiculous notion to say he's not good at running an offense. For all his weaknesses, he's one of the best players in the league at running an offense. It's a talent very few PG's have and one that most fans don't seem to be able to understand.

    And Ripp, the Raptors actually have two PGs that some people don't seem to understand would start for many teams in the league. I think both guys are being underrated by you.
    Nice first post. Making an entry past into the post from over 30 feet from the basket is pretty risky. Jose might of been able to get it in there, but it is a risky pass. If Bargs managed to get his defender a little deeper, I bet Jose would of swung the ball Wright, who could of fed Bargs easily. I really don't think this is anything worth discussing. Jose is very good at making the correct decision on the offensive end.
    I Am Shutup

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    It's the same spot guys like dirk and Bosh like to catch the ball in the high post. Calderon is good at running the offense but I think this has more to do with him not trusting Bargnani to finish the play. Bargs has a bit of a turn around jumper now and he was he had a good position on Hibbert to shoot or to do that running hook he likes to do so I think the positioning is good and that at the beginning of the play there was no one around who could come over to steal the pass.

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    Quote TIm W. wrote: View Post
    I signed up for the forum just to respond to this. I'm sick of people blaming Calderon for "looking off" Bargnani. First of all, Bargnani is posting up 15 feet from the basket, not a place he's ever been comfortable with the ball. Secondly, Roy Hibbert is hedging on him on one side, and Dunleavy on the other side. It's not a good pass to make.

    And maybe he's scared that it' a stupid pass. And he's right.

    I will concede that Calderon is not a good defender, but it's a ridiculous notion to say he's not good at running an offense. For all his weaknesses, he's one of the best players in the league at running an offense. It's a talent very few PG's have and one that most fans don't seem to be able to understand.

    And Ripp, the Raptors actually have two PGs that some people don't seem to understand would start for many teams in the league. I think both guys are being underrated by you.
    Read the main blog entry which is accompanying this video. Didn't say Calderon was looking off Bargnani, if anything, I'm saying the opposite, that he wasn't.

    And he is a poor post-passer, just because he's 15 feet away doesn't mean you make the pass from 15 feet away. He should work the mismatch, dribble to the wing, tell his mates to space out and exploit the, you know, mismatch.

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    Quote TIm W. wrote: View Post
    I signed up for the forum just to respond to this. I'm sick of people blaming Calderon for "looking off" Bargnani. First of all, Bargnani is posting up 15 feet from the basket, not a place he's ever been comfortable with the ball. Secondly, Roy Hibbert is hedging on him on one side, and Dunleavy on the other side. It's not a good pass to make.

    And maybe he's scared that it' a stupid pass. And he's right.

    I will concede that Calderon is not a good defender, but it's a ridiculous notion to say he's not good at running an offense. For all his weaknesses, he's one of the best players in the league at running an offense. It's a talent very few PG's have and one that most fans don't seem to be able to understand.

    And Ripp, the Raptors actually have two PGs that some people don't seem to understand would start for many teams in the league. I think both guys are being underrated by you.
    What are you talking about ??Andrea hasn't been uncomfortable at the post all year it's because Jose hasn't been passing the ball down low to him ! He's got a baby hook and a turn around shot from that post position . Plus if Calderon makes that pass than like you said Hibbert and Dunleavy are there that breaks down the D and all Andrea has to do is pass it to the open man because he attracted the double team.

    You're acting like that pass is impossible, Jose looks one person down low and thats Bosh, i've actually been suprised that he has been finding Amir on the PnR and Alley oops because he usually doesn't show that CREATIVITY.
    Last edited by rdiaz101; Wed Feb 3rd, 2010 at 10:19 AM.

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    "t's the same spot guys like dirk and Bosh like to catch the ball in the high post. Calderon is good at running the offense but I think this has more to do with him not trusting Bargnani to finish the play."

    Exactly. Bargnani is not Dirk or Bosh. He doesn't have a move there.

    "What are you talking about ??Andrea hasn't been uncomfortable at the post all year it's because Jose hasn't been passing the ball down low to him ! He's got a baby hook and a turn around shot from that post position ."

    Well, first of all, Bargnani isn't down low. He's 15 feet from the basket. And you've got to be kidding to blame Calderon for Bargnani not feeling comfortable in the post. Talk about excuses! Care to blame him for the war in Iraq, too?

    I think the main thing that you guys aren't getting is that the worst place to make a post pass is from the top of the key. That's basic fundamental basketball. It's the easiest way to get the ball taken away, especially with Bargnani not having the greatest hands AND him being 15 feet away from the basket. It's amazing. You guys act as if he's in scoring position with a little man on him. He's not. What exactly is Bargnani going to do with the ball IF he is able to catch it cleanly? The spacing is not good enough that a pass to him is going to create an opening in the defense. It's simply not a productive pass and I wouldn't make it either.

    Let's review...

    1) A post pass from the top of the key is not a good place to pass from.
    2) Bargnani is 15 feet away from the basket, where he is not good with the ball.
    3) Because of the way the defense is spaced, a post pass could be easily picked off, especially with Bargnani not great at catching the ball in traffic.
    4) A pass to him would result in very little.

    Gee, seems like the right decision to me.

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Read the main blog entry which is accompanying this video. Didn't say Calderon was looking off Bargnani, if anything, I'm saying the opposite, that he wasn't.

    And he is a poor post-passer, just because he's 15 feet away doesn't mean you make the pass from 15 feet away. He should work the mismatch, dribble to the wing, tell his mates to space out and exploit the, you know, mismatch.

    I agree he is at times a poor post-passer, and he should have been able to get the ball into Bargnani on that play. Now in regards to the possible misunderstanding of this post in relation to the blog entry, might I suggest quoting your blog entry in the thread so anyone who hasn't read it yet will have a better understanding. I read the article after the fact and I understand what you were saying.

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    Quote TIm W. wrote: View Post
    Let's review...

    1) A post pass from the top of the key is not a good place to pass from.
    2) Bargnani is 15 feet away from the basket, where he is not good with the ball.
    3) Because of the way the defense is spaced, a post pass could be easily picked off, especially with Bargnani not great at catching the ball in traffic.
    4) A pass to him would result in very little.

    Gee, seems like the right decision to me.
    I agree with points (1) and (3)... but (2) is questionable. Bargnani has continued to improve, and a mismatch at that range isn't such a bad option.

    Does Jose look him off regularly? Probably not, or at least not enough to be concerned about. Should Jose have made that pass directly? Probably not, as I also didn't like the spacing or angles.

    But that doesn't justify the final decision or make it the "right" choice to dribble away and take a poor shot over Hibbert instead of rewarding one of your most skilled offensive players who is aggressively working for position and calling for the ball. Clearing the side and then dumping the ball in would've been a smarter move in my opinion.


    (Oh, and point (4) is mostly moot. Would he have been doubled if a pass was thrown in? Would it have resulted in an easy shot? The only thing we can say for sure is that the final decision to ignore the mismatch and shoot off the dribble was poor.)

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    skeptical,

    Bargnani is much better close to the basket, and is good when getting the ball behind the three point line, but he's never shown an acumen to doing much in the high post. He doesn't create much, and at that position, when someone is right on you, you need to create. And because of this, there's little chance of him being doubled. Once he gets the ball, any defender hedging on him would back off.

    Does it excuse Jose taking the shot he did? No, but it's one play, and considering Jose's shooting percentage and how rarely he makes a bad play, it's completely forgivable.

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    Raptors Republic Starter rdiaz101's Avatar
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    Quote TIm W. wrote: View Post
    "t's the same spot guys like dirk and Bosh like to catch the ball in the high post. Calderon is good at running the offense but I think this has more to do with him not trusting Bargnani to finish the play."

    Exactly. Bargnani is not Dirk or Bosh. He doesn't have a move there.

    "What are you talking about ??Andrea hasn't been uncomfortable at the post all year it's because Jose hasn't been passing the ball down low to him ! He's got a baby hook and a turn around shot from that post position ."

    Well, first of all, Bargnani isn't down low. He's 15 feet from the basket. And you've got to be kidding to blame Calderon for Bargnani not feeling comfortable in the post. Talk about excuses! Care to blame him for the war in Iraq, too?

    I think the main thing that you guys aren't getting is that the worst place to make a post pass is from the top of the key. That's basic fundamental basketball. It's the easiest way to get the ball taken away, especially with Bargnani not having the greatest hands AND him being 15 feet away from the basket. It's amazing. You guys act as if he's in scoring position with a little man on him. He's not. What exactly is Bargnani going to do with the ball IF he is able to catch it cleanly? The spacing is not good enough that a pass to him is going to create an opening in the defense. It's simply not a productive pass and I wouldn't make it either.

    Let's review...

    1) A post pass from the top of the key is not a good place to pass from.
    2) Bargnani is 15 feet away from the basket, where he is not good with the ball.
    3) Because of the way the defense is spaced, a post pass could be easily picked off, especially with Bargnani not great at catching the ball in traffic.
    4) A pass to him would result in very little.

    Gee, seems like the right decision to me.
    yeah a pass from the key is not a good place to pass from , BUT Jose should still look for Bargniani because of the MISMATCH he can turn Hibbert into a pilon just like he has been doing all year for fucks sake. Points 2 just dont make sense Bargs can either atractt a double team, shoot a mid range shot (he was on fire in this game BTW)or drive and go to the line.Point 3 the way thei D is spaced with hibbert and dunleavy arent quick enough to get that pass if it's Granger or Rush in Dunleavy's spot than maybe. Point 4 just go back to my explanation for Point 2.

    Look im not bashing Jose but his job as a PG is to get his teamates involved and Bargniani is the second option so he has to look for him especially when he has it going like had last night.

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    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    yeah a pass from the key is not a good place to pass from , BUT Jose should still look for Bargniani because of the MISMATCH he can turn Hibbert into a pilon just like he has been doing all year for fucks sake. Points 2 just dont make sense Bargs can either atractt a double team, shoot a mid range shot (he was on fire in this game BTW)or drive and go to the line.Point 3 the way thei D is spaced with hibbert and dunleavy arent quick enough to get that pass if it's Granger or Rush in Dunleavy's spot than maybe. Point 4 just go back to my explanation for Point 2.

    Look im not bashing Jose but his job as a PG is to get his teamates involved and Bargniani is the second option so he has to look for him especially when he has it going like had last night.
    Well, first of all, Hibbert wasn't guarding Bargnani. He was guarding Bosh, who then set a pick for Calderon.

    And Bargnani is not going to attract a double team 15 feet away from the basket.

    Look, you guys are overanalyzing ONE PLAY the same way a lot of people overanalyze one game.

    I could make a reel of every single players miscues in a game, including Kobe and LeBron. If this were a regular problem, not giving the ball to Bargnani, then you guys might have a point. But the guy is getting nearly as many shots a game as Bosh. Him getting the ball isn't a problem. So I ask you, what is the point of this?

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    Quote TIm W. wrote: View Post
    Well, first of all, Hibbert wasn't guarding Bargnani. He was guarding Bosh, who then set a pick for Calderon.

    And Bargnani is not going to attract a double team 15 feet away from the basket.

    Look, you guys are overanalyzing ONE PLAY the same way a lot of people overanalyze one game.

    I could make a reel of every single players miscues in a game, including Kobe and LeBron. If this were a regular problem, not giving the ball to Bargnani, then you guys might have a point. But the guy is getting nearly as many shots a game as Bosh. Him getting the ball isn't a problem. So I ask you, what is the point of this?
    My point is get him the ball in the mismatch, whats yours? that you can't get off Jose's nuts ?

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    ^ That could even have been an alley oop dunk.

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