View Poll Results: With missing the playoffs a near certainly, what should be focus of rest of season?

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  • No way, man! We are totally going to make the playoffs!

    3 6.52%
  • Tank! Tank! Tank some more!

    5 10.87%
  • Focus on addition by subtraction (#tradeBagnani)

    17 36.96%
  • Bring back the culture change!

    15 32.61%
  • Other (post in comments)

    6 13.04%
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Thread: With playoffs nearly out of the question, what should be focus for remainder of year?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    calderon,bargnani, and derozan need to go. We have 4 capable starers in lowry,ross,jv and ed.
    And DeRozan? have you been watching his play lately? lets place blame where its deserved you may not like DeRozan but hes playing real solid lately. I guess people are just dammed if they don't dammed if they do right? "***"

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    And DeRozan? have you been watching his play lately? lets place blame where its deserved you may not like DeRozan but hes playing real solid lately. I guess people are just dammed if they don't dammed if they do right? "***"
    He has been playing solid lately (for DeRozan's standards), but he's still a below average shooter, ball-handler and defender.

    If a SG is to be labelled as part of our "core" going forward (who isn't a lights-out scorer), I would ideally like someone who contributes more across the board. Otherwise, I see DeRozan as an expendable piece.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I would agree with giving the young guys more minutes, but that's not our coaches m.o. Casey loves his vets, and will give his vets more playing time. Since that appears to be inevitable I would prefer for him to go back to the way they played last season. It also seemed to inspire Bargnani more and that alone might net us some wins to help us move down the draft ladder so that OKC gets a crappier pick.
    This is the definition of the problem!! Its not our coaches m.o.? What the hell should any raptors fan care about our coaches m.o.? If "his" way of "positive experiences" for the young guys was getting us wins, then I might have a little more sympathy for it. But it has failed miserably. Its time for DC to adapt to the situation that is in front of him or get the hell outa here.

    TRoss, Ed Davis and JV should be gettnig major minutes. It doesnt mean we shouldnt hold them accountable when they arent working hard or playing well .. but it does mean we should be giving them every opportunity to succeed (or fail as the case may be).

    Casey's old school "vets" mentaility is garbage. Its totally fine if you are coaching the Knicks this year or Dallas when he was there .. but makes absolutely no sense for the raps.

  4. #44
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    He has been playing solid lately (for DeRozan's standards), but he's still a below average shooter, ball-handler and defender.

    If a SG is to be labelled as part of our "core" going forward (who isn't a lights-out scorer), I would ideally like someone who contributes more across the board. Otherwise, I see DeRozan as an expendable piece.
    I don't understand... I believe his ball-handling, defense, and shooting OVERALL has improved this season. Not to mention he's been rebounding the ball at a good rate, expanded his game to finding the open man, getting out defensively in the passing lanes. Derozan standards? Is that some sort of rating for a player you think is poor? I definitely feel he is one of the better wing players this season, and key word, is he's been CONSISTENT. Much more consistent than last year by far.

    He's been contributing pretty damn well across the board this season. I don't think picking one-by-one their weaknesses would make any player look appealing... You can basically do it to every, single player on this roster. Key things for Derozan this season has been consistency, improving daily, aggressive, and he sure as hell hasn't been one-dimensional all season.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I like his rebounding (so far), and his passing out of traffic, but he's still nowhere near an elite shooting guard. Is he a better ball-handler than Dominc McGuire? I can't say with certainty. How far does DeRozan's game need to develop before he reaches Joe Johnson's level of polish? His jumper (outside of 16 feet) isn't just bad, it's awful. His man defense still leaves a lot to be desired.

    He's a decent piece, but not someone I feel like we need to "build" around. Consistency is great, but it's not the be-all-and-end-all.

    As for picking apart the rest of the roster, you're right....this roster is a very weak one. Very few players are worthy of building around. Lowry and Jonas maybe, but that's it.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  6. #46
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I like his rebounding (so far), and his passing out of traffic, but he's still nowhere near an elite shooting guard. Is he a better ball-handler than Dominc McGuire? I can't say with certainty. How far does DeRozan's game need to develop before he reaches Joe Johnson's level of polish? His jumper (outside of 16 feet) isn't just bad, it's awful. His man defense still leaves a lot to be desired.

    He's a decent piece, but not someone I feel like we need to "build" around. Consistency is great, but it's not the be-all-and-end-all.

    As for picking apart the rest of the roster, you're right....this roster is a very weak one. Very few players are worthy of building around. Lowry and Jonas maybe, but that's it.
    Fully agree about DeRozan and overall weakness of the roster. It doesn't help when our top-3 scorers are all inefficient (DeRozan: 44.9% / 32.1%; Bargnani: 40.4% / 34.6%; Lowry: 42.4% / 37.5%), yet they're combining to take a little over half the team's shot attempts.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Dec 5th, 2012 at 01:49 PM.

  7. #47
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I like his rebounding (so far), and his passing out of traffic, but he's still nowhere near an elite shooting guard. Is he a better ball-handler than Dominc McGuire? I can't say with certainty. How far does DeRozan's game need to develop before he reaches Joe Johnson's level of polish? His jumper (outside of 16 feet) isn't just bad, it's awful. His man defense still leaves a lot to be desired.

    He's a decent piece, but not someone I feel like we need to "build" around. Consistency is great, but it's not the be-all-and-end-all.

    As for picking apart the rest of the roster, you're right....this roster is a very weak one. Very few players are worthy of building around. Lowry and Jonas maybe, but that's it.
    Derozan is in his fourth year, still trying to add, develop, and improve his overall game. In my eye, he's farther than what I expected. Sure, his handle is a little spotty, but it's improved and you can't take away from that. Derozan's jumper outside of 16 feet? It's also a bit cringe-worthy depending on the situation he shoots it, but it's a shot he has very capable of hitting.

    Look at his strengths this season though. Rebounding, passing out of traffic (which in the above you've mentioned), disrupting passing lanes, his post-up game has passed the eye test of 'elite' in my opinion, his aggressiveness and mentality to get to the basket has been impressive - call, or no call - and he's become a smarter, more informed player of the game. He's slowing down, and starting to read the situation, and the way the defenses are playing him. From last year to this year, he's become a much better player, and no doubt scoring WITH impact on the game.

    Consistency is a huge factor for any great player. Bargnani hasn't been consistent one bit all season, look where he's at? Derozan was basically Bargnani this season; last season! Pick apart his weaknesses you will, but can't deny he's a much improved basketball player, and I believe any team would like to INCLUDE (not build around) in their core.

  8. #48
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Fully agree about DeRozan and overall weakness of the roster. It doesn't help when our top-3 scorers are all inefficient (DeRozan: 44.9% / 32.1%; Bargnani: 40.4% / 34.6%; Lowry: 42.4% / 37.5%), yet they're combining to take a little over half the team's shot attempts.
    My initial reply was to state that he's a much better overall player. No doubt our top-3 scorers have been inefficient, and they are combining to take a little over half the shots, but other than those 3, who are you relying to get baskets? Goes back to talent, but I believe if guys like Lowry, and Bargnani are being fairly inconsistent, the burden on another player becomes bigger and bigger.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    DeRozan's D is still bad but he does seem to be more alert in the passing lanes. Getting over screens and off ball defense is bad.

    His handle has improved. Still not great but noticeable improvement in my opinion.

    Rebounding has been great. An absolute pleasure this year to be honest.

    No wait, the absolute pleasure has been watching him in the post on smaller guards.

    Biggest concern still: his continual pushing the ball on shot release driving to the hoop while releasing the ball on the way down. He is easy to stop at the rim because he is trying to literally hang with bigger and longer guys..... shoot the ball at the height of your jump. If he was getting the benefit of the whistle it would be another matter, but he is not, and likely never will because the position he puts himself in makes it look like a bailout call regardless of the rules, sadly.

    Last 5 games:

    37.0 mins
    19.6 points
    7.4-15.8 fg
    .468 fg%
    0.6-1.6 3pt
    .375 3pt%
    4.2-5.0 ft
    .840 ft%
    5.8 reb
    2.2 ast
    0.2 blk
    1.8 stl
    1.8 to


    Those are nearly Rudy Gay numbers (better in some areas - shooting percentages; not quite in others - blocks in particular).
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #50
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    DeRozan's D is still bad but he does seem to be more alert in the passing lanes. Getting over screens and off ball defense is bad.

    His handle has improved. Still not great but noticeable improvement in my opinion.

    Rebounding has been great. An absolute pleasure this year to be honest.

    No wait, the absolute pleasure has been watching him in the post on smaller guards.

    Biggest concern still: his continual pushing the ball on shot release driving to the hoop while releasing the ball on the way down. He is easy to stop at the rim because he is trying to literally hang with bigger and longer guys..... shoot the ball at the height of your jump. If he was getting the benefit of the whistle it would be another matter, but he is not, and likely never will because the position he puts himself in makes it look like a bailout call regardless of the rules, sadly.

    Last 5 games:

    37.0 mins
    19.6 points
    7.4-15.8 fg
    .468 fg%
    0.6-1.6 3pt
    .375 3pt%
    4.2-5.0 ft
    .840 ft%
    5.8 reb
    2.2 ast
    0.2 blk
    1.8 stl
    1.8 to


    Those are nearly Rudy Gay numbers (better in some areas - shooting percentages; not quite in others - blocks in particular).
    Long story short. Much better than last season.

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Long story short. Much better than last season.
    Demar is clearly MUCH better than he was last season .... Anyone saying the opposite is just a hater (Nilanka). I'm not sure what else DD would need to do to earn your respect, but for me he's further along than i expected him to be. Considering Joe Johnson (who Nilanka mentions in comparison) makes over 18 million a year - i'm pretty happy with DD's progress in his 4th year. He can still get better IMO.

    P.s. Nilanka.....check out Joe Johnson's stats below - 15.6 ppg, 3.8 assists, 2.8 rebounds.... ummm i'll stick with demar for now!

    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/joe_johnson/

    Demar is arguably our best player and is a good piece to have on our team.

    I like Andrea but he's NOT as efficient and i'd rather get rid of him or even Lowry before i get rid of Demar. Right now Demar is a borderline all-star...... he played on the USA Select team this summer (which shows that he's being noticed around the league).

    We've watched him IMPROVE before our eyes and i'm excited to watch Demar, JV, Ross and ED play together as the core of our team moving forward. I'm honestly not sure if Lowry will want to stay with our team after next year. I know Demar does want to stay and thats enough for me!

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Reading comprehension dude. My comparison was to emphasize DeRozan's and Johnson's skill level at shooting guard. Nothing more, nothing less. There's isn't a stat that measures one's ability to dribble.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  13. #53
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Reading comprehension dude. My comparison was to emphasize DeRozan's and Johnson's skill level at shooting guard. Nothing more, nothing less. There's isn't a stat that measures one's ability to dribble.
    I think it's a bad comparison, for Joe Johnson and Derozan are two different shooting guards. Derozan is an athletic slasher, who can get out and run, and put pressure on defenses, not to mention a very good post-player. Johnson is a skilled shooting guard, who has the capability to hit the outside shot, and take defenses off the dribble. Johnson has skills and ability to pass over Derozan, but as of now, Derozan is a better defender, and a better rebounder than Johnson.

    Two different style shooting guards, it's hard when they barely have any similarities other than them being bigger NBA shooting guards.

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Johnson's skillset represents a prototypical shooting guard, IMO. He can put the ball on the floor, he can post up, he's a legit outside threat, and he's got the ball-handling/passing ability of a point guard. Rebounding isn't the biggest concern from one of the smallest members of one's lineup.

    The comparison wasn't an attempt to say DeRozan and Johnson are alike, but was instead to highlight what I expect a SG to bring to the table.

    A shooting guard who is a below average shooter/passer/dribbler is just as (in)valuable to me as a power forward who doesn't rebound, rotate, or boxout. Everything else they do well doesn't make up for their lack of basic skills.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  15. #55
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Johnson's skillset represents a prototypical shooting guard, IMO. He can put the ball on the floor, he can post up, he's a legit outside threat, and he's got the ball-handling/passing ability of a point guard. Rebounding isn't the biggest concern from one of the smallest members of one's lineup.

    The comparison wasn't an attempt to say DeRozan and Johnson are alike, but was instead to highlight what I expect a SG to bring to the table.

    A shooting guard who is a below average shooter/passer/dribbler is just as (in)valuable to me as a power forward who doesn't rebound, rotate, or boxout. Everything else they do well doesn't make up for their lack of basic skills.
    Once again, I totally agree.

    It's the same reason I personally prefer a pass-first PG and shot blocking/altering defensive anchor type of C.

    While I think DeRozan has improved significantly this season, I think he has only now achieved the status of 'borderline starter on most NBA teams'. DeRozan is younger, been the league fewer years and is more outwardly emotional than Bargnani (hence love for one and hate for another), but I think they are quite similar in that they both have serious flaws in their game that leave them better served as backups on a good/contending team. And this is honestly not a knock against DeRozan or Bargnani. I just think they've been elevated beyond fair expectations by the Raptors organization, undeservedly.

  16. #56
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Alex Kennedy at HoopsWorld.com is down with #1!


    Nick

    Are the Raptors good enough to go on a run and get back into the hunt for the 8th seed? The schedule hasnt done them any favors early on however it gets much easier later on.

    Alex Kennedy

    I think the Raptors have a lot of talent and I wouldn’t be surprised if they managed to sneak into the eighth seed in the East. They have had a tough schedule and have been limited by injuries. I think their best basketball is ahead of them.

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-chat-w...kennedy-12512/
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  17. #57
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Johnson's skillset represents a prototypical shooting guard, IMO. He can put the ball on the floor, he can post up, he's a legit outside threat, and he's got the ball-handling/passing ability of a point guard. Rebounding isn't the biggest concern from one of the smallest members of one's lineup.

    The comparison wasn't an attempt to say DeRozan and Johnson are alike, but was instead to highlight what I expect a SG to bring to the table.

    A shooting guard who is a below average shooter/passer/dribbler is just as (in)valuable to me as a power forward who doesn't rebound, rotate, or boxout. Everything else they do well doesn't make up for their lack of basic skills.
    Well, in the NBA, how many shooting guards can you name who are the talent Joe Johnson is, and are prototypical shooting guards? I can name Ginobili, Harden, Wade, and Bryant. The rest to me are prospects, like Derozan is (although seriously improving at every facet of the game in dribbling/shooting/passing.) I see your initial comparison on what a prototypical shooting guard should be, but I think overall talent wise, it's hard to find that comparison for basically any player in the league, specifically Derozan.

    Now, I won't go and say Derozan is a below-average player in general. Of course strengths don't make up for basic skills, but some players strengths are well enough to be able to get them somewhere. Like Demar, he relies sorely on his athleticism, size, penetration, and post-game to be successful (again, with improved basic skills), he in my eye is a starting caliber player. Now, what if Derozan had at the very least, average dribbling/shooting/passing, would he be an all-star? No doubt he COULD be.

    I feel he is a valuable piece, for only in his fourth year, showing great strides and playing well on either end of the court. Remember, he came into the league very, very raw. It's not an excuse, it's just how it was. I feel he is a couple inches away from being your prototypical shooting guard.

  18. #58
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    For the sake of the Raptors, let's hope you're right.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  19. #59
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    For the sake of the Raptors, let's hope you're right.
    Demar Derozan is Desmond Mason, and unfortunately thats not likely to be good enough.

    At this point there are bigger fish to fry. But when that fish is done the frying pan is free and is unlikely to go unused.

  20. #60
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Demar Derozan is Desmond Mason, and unfortunately thats not likely to be good enough.

    At this point there are bigger fish to fry. But when that fish is done the frying pan is free and is unlikely to go unused.
    Correction: Desmond Mason with a higher usage rate, making his numbers look "good"
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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