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Thread: The Pro's and Con's of a rumour.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Default The Pro's and Con's of a rumour.

    Now, as most fans in the NBA are sure (most specifically Laker, and Raptor fans) of the rumoured deal going on between the two organizations.

    The original deal was:





    Now, remember, there was also speculation that BC was not interested in dealing Andrea Bargnani, but that being said, we should continually be reminded to take whatever Coach Casey, or GM Bryan Colangelo say like a grain of salt.

    Now, back to the original topic, the consensus pieces of the trade (from what I've read) was Pau Gasol & Steve Blake for Jose Calderon, Andrea Bargnani, and Linas Kleiza.

    IF this were to happen, and that is a HUGE IF (considering the front-office promised Nash not to trade Gasol until the return, and BC's 'said-to-be' unwillingness to deal Bargnani), there would be a number of pros & cons for both teams.

    Los Angeles Lakers:
    Pros:

    - Andrea Bargnani is a stretch four. Under Mike D'antoni's system, he's proven to make very good use of big men with the ability to stretch the floor.

    - With Toronto being so tired of him being a #1 option, he can now be the very #3-#4 option on offense where he is better suited. He would be able to play under little pressure, for he will get his shots under a system that runs on a point guard and his ability to find guys shots.

    - With Bargnani's defensive deficiencies, a guy like Dwight compared to JV isn't much of a large liability, for Dwight is a proven NBA anchor, and is able to cover much up of a team's defensive woes. This goes same for rebounding. Now, this may or may not be a pro, but I believe it is, for Bargnani adds a whole new dynamic for the Lakers.

    - Jose Calderon is able to come in, and bring in some very good contribution right out of the gate. Depending on injuries to Nash, you won't get top notch production out of Duhon and Morris from that spot. That's where Calderon is able to come in, and be an important piece down the road, especially come Spring time if (can't believe that's a question) the Lakers make the playoffs.

    - Linas Kleiza. Not a huge trade name, but I believe he adds to that dynamic change for the Lakers. A 3-man who can play inside, and outside. Post-offense is very good, and is a solid bench scorer. Inconsistent though, but LA is also a team that (not as desperately needed) requires some more production from the 3-spot.

    - Expiring contract at the end of the 2012-2013 season (current season), with nearly 10-11$ million dollars coming off the books. Kleiza and Bargnani not working? They become trade chips/assets in any trades going out to try and acquire younger players and picks if they're trying to develop for the future.

    Cons:

    - Bargnani's deficiencies could prove to hurt the team more than it does the Raptors, and he continues to struggle and put up inefficient scoring for his team. Unlikely though under a change of scenery, and in a role where asked to do limited tasks.

    - Calderon is also an older point guard, who experiences injuries basically every season (posted in the past by Matt52, as history shows it), if he goes down, it's back to trying to get production from Morris and Duhon.

    - Calderon and Bargnani just end up being 15 minute 'take-a-breather type players'. For this only happens if Calderon and Bargnani just don't fit the system and concept D'antoni is trying to run.

    Toronto Raptors:

    Pros:

    - Pau Gasol is a proven winner. He will bring a presence to his team. On, and off the court. He has valuable NBA experience, and is still one of the best finesse big men in the league, probably one of the best big men in the league in general (when healthy).

    - Pau Gasol would possibly push Coach Casey to instill the slow down, 'grind-it-out' game, where he would be able to flourish, and have a huge impact on the game. The high post, or the low block. His game allows not only himself to have good scoring opportunities, but for his teammates being one of the best passing big men in the game.

    - Pau Gasol is an excellent rebounder, and a solid defender. Known to be quite soft, but compared to Bargnani, he doesn't have the one-dimensional outlook Bargnani has.

    - Pau Gasol also becomes a type of teacher towards Jonas Valanciunas. JV could be able to learn post-offense, the overall big-man game, and the different parts of the NBA game from a proven NBA big man. This is where - in my opinion - is the best pro throughout this whole process.

    - With Calderon gone, Toronto would've had to be forced to play JL3 as the back-up point, which quite frankly he's doing a terrible job of playing the 3rd stringer. Yikes! Blake comes in, and is your prototypical NBA back-up. Scrappy player, changes game tempo, and is able to provide some type of scoring punch (3-point threat specifically).

    - Well, Bargnani would be gone. So, I guess that's a pro.

    Cons:

    - Health is HUGE. Pau Gasol has tendinitis in both knees, and Blake has some weird injury as well. Whatever the situation, if both were acquired, there wouldn't be much knowledge on when either guy could make their debut... Thus, if both are injured, could set this team back a little bit. Although, that means Ed gets some minutes!

    - Pau and Steve may not fit. Depending on how things continually are run (especially with Casey and his weird coaching this year), there might not be a romance to start with, or even end with.

    - Hurts the financial flexibility this team has been raving about all off-season long. Pau Gasol nearly eats up 20$ million dollars, but depending on how he performs, that's going to effect this team moving forward.

    Two questions for the readers are, do you believe a trade like this is a quick fix, where BC is desperately trying to create something left of the season? Or a move that could bring this team forward, going on without a piece many believe is hurting the progression of this team?

    Add pros and cons if you like as well, and argue mine if you would like! Would love to hear others' feed-back on this certain rumour. Please do note that these pros and cons are just my opinions.

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    The only thing that scares me about the trade is John Lucas III playing the backup, he does not know how to run a team. And if Pau is injured we play ED more (which is better than playing Bargnani for 40 motherfucking minutes)

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    The only thing that scares me about the trade is John Lucas III playing the backup, he does not know how to run a team. And if Pau is injured we play ED more (which is better than playing Bargnani for 40 motherfucking minutes)

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    The biggest issue I have with Toronto landing Gasol is that Gasol could not be part of this core, which we still have to establish. Gasol would add wins which would hurt our draft. We need super-stars and once Gasol's contract expires (or he retires) we will have to rebuild again.

    I was thinking about this last night and even though I want Bargnani off this team, my priority would be to get rid of Colangelo. The biggest obstacle in removing Colangelo is the win/loss column, IMO. You bring in Gasol and we could end up 9th/10th. That is great for the OKC pick but then it leaves the franchise no where in a couple of years when Gasol is gone.

    I'd rather continue to lose and hope for a top 3 pick; fire Colangelo; then trade (or amensty) Bargnani.

    I have lost complete trust in Bryan. The fact that there are rumours that Toronto is interested in Gasol bugs me. These trade rumours don't happen with good General Managers. Trade rumours like this make it difficult for Bryan to have any kind of leverage in getting a good deal done.

    As for JV learning from Gasol.. that's what coaches are for. No reason to invest in a coach for $20M a year. Just hire Hakeem in the off season then as he'd be worth much less, and it wouldn't tie up a roster spot.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    The biggest issue I have with Toronto landing Gasol is that Gasol could not be part of this core, which we still have to establish. Gasol would add wins which would hurt our draft. We need super-stars and once Gasol's contract expires (or he retires) we will have to rebuild again.

    I was thinking about this last night and even though I want Bargnani off this team, my priority would be to get rid of Colangelo. The biggest obstacle in removing Colangelo is the win/loss column, IMO. You bring in Gasol and we could end up 9th/10th. That is great for the OKC pick but then it leaves the franchise no where in a couple of years when Gasol is gone.

    I'd rather continue to lose and hope for a top 3 pick; fire Colangelo; then trade (or amensty) Bargnani.

    I have lost complete trust in Bryan. The fact that there are rumours that Toronto is interested in Gasol bugs me. These trade rumours don't happen with good General Managers. Trade rumours like this make it difficult for Bryan to have any kind of leverage in getting a good deal done.

    As for JV learning from Gasol.. that's what coaches are for. No reason to invest in a coach for $20M a year. Just hire Hakeem in the off season then as he'd be worth much less, and it wouldn't tie up a roster spot.
    IMO, it will be good for the franchise. To finally land an all star will be huge. It's not like Gasol is in the same stage as when Hakeem came to the Raps. Pau should be good for one more contract. And i dont really expect him to re-sign. He's a rental plain and simple, but id rather have that and get his salary off the books in 2014 than a lackadaisical Bargnani for 2 more years.

    Im with you on Colangelo. I think he's exhausted all his efforts here in Toronto. Time for a change.

    I think sometimes its all propaganda. Much like when cops are trying to look for a killer, they leak information to the media to see if it can stir the pot, so to speak. Maybe GMs do this type of thing to get it out there that hey, my guys are on the block, any offers? Of course stupid GMs would just take any offers that they can get, i dont think BC is like that. Gathering from his trades in the past, he makes the most of what he is given.

    I agree with getting Hakeem, but being side by side, watching up close and in game, nothing beats that type of mentorship. JV makes a mistake, right there and then Gasol can pull him aside and say, dude, wrong move, do this instead.

    I dont want BC to force a Pau for Bargnani trade, but if thats the only option he can get then so be it. Im not worried about tendinitis, everybody has it. IMO, it's not going to be much of an issue, its not like Pau plays above the rim, its not like he's running fastbreaks, its not like the Raptors are a running team anyways. Its pretty much the same situation as Nash, if you can get an all star here, hopefully it will entice other all stars to play too. Who knows, maybe when Jose's contract expires, Pau can entice him to come back. Or get Marc here. We also need to look at the off-court possibilities and not just on-court.

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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Default Stay the course.

    The problem I have with this trade scenario is that is divests the team of its 2 big trading chips (Jose's expiring and Bargs) without addressing the need at the SF position. So I am not entirely sure how this is supposed to help the team in the long run. Does BC think he can flip Gasol's expiring in the offseason for the SF? This reeks to me of a GM trying desperately to save his job by making a short-term fix and making a late run in the season. This pattern has played itself out far too often for my liking. Just stick with the youth/flexibility movement. I can handle another season of disappointment if I can see the greater purpose. Which, despite the current record, I do.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    the prob. with rumours is it gives time for owners like MJ to nix potential deals LOL

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    Where does this rumor come from? One hand article says BC is after Gasol but not willing to give up Bargnani. Then this Bargs, Calderon and Kleiza for Gasol. Desperate move!!!! Taking on a big contract of aging player with bad knees?????

    Get real. Perhaps Calderon, Kleiza & Amir for Gasol and Morris or better still look at reality . How many games did we lose in the final minutes of the 4th quarter and OT. Our record is worse than how the team has played.

    Raptors need big inside presence that can score. Raps should have gone after Al Jefferson with money freed up after Bosh left.
    He is free agent after this year may be available later this year. If you move Bargnani go after #1 SF.

    While Valanciunas is a fine young player he needs time to mature. We need a tough veteran presence like a Jefferson.

    Please no more trades for the sake of making a trade.

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    Nice thread, I'd like to add one more con for the Raptors though.

    If Gasol was acquired, we'd have 2 "slim" starting big men. Will this play a factor in the team defense even though both of them are good defenders? Maybe. But one thing is certain, expect a LOT of cheap fouls to be called against us.

    Regardless, I fully support this potential trade.

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    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    Just wanna say, everyone is saying Linas/AB/JC for Pau... Ya know that doesn't work roster wise or cap wise right? LAL would need to throw in Blake for cap reasons and it'd also clear up that needed spot.
    LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote minks77 wrote: View Post
    Just wanna say, everyone is saying Linas/AB/JC for Pau... Ya know that doesn't work roster wise or cap wise right? LAL would need to throw in Blake for cap reasons and it'd also clear up that needed spot.
    Blake or Duhon most likely, though the trade would even work with Earl Clark coming to the Raps. I'm sure they could either waive or trade away one of their min-wage players to free up the needed roster spot (or add a 3rd player to the deal).

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    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    The biggest issue I have with Toronto landing Gasol is that Gasol could not be part of this core, which we still have to establish. Gasol would add wins which would hurt our draft. We need super-stars and once Gasol's contract expires (or he retires) we will have to rebuild again.
    I'm totally with you on this one. But, like 'TheGloveinRapsUniform' said, it's a rental. He's going to being a type of presence to the team, and the organization by having, a WINNER. Depending on how he performs post-injury, maybe he could be part of our core? Early 30's, if he performs well, and is willing to take a smaller contract (most likely due to age), he could be a keeper. Gasol is one of those guys who no matter the age, will have that skill. You see guys like Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki. I put Gasol in that level of skill, and while they're all slowing down, they are huge parts of their team regardless of age.

    Also, think, the free agency class once Gasol's contract expires, will be a fairly strong one. (Lowry's contract expires as well). Nearly $20 million dollars off the books, and that's SIGNIFICANT money to be able to pay a sum of money on a type of 'stud' player, or two very good, proven NBA players.

    I don't think rebuilding would be a needed option, because after Gasol's contract expires, you already (assuming Lowry re-signs), a point guard for the future, Demar Derozan who continually improves - whether he is going to be our shooting guard for the future, is yet to be seen - Jonas Valanciunas, drafted 5th, possibly to be our key piece as a franchise moving forward, and Ed Davis, who is an NBA big man with some good tools, and could be our first big off the bench for years to come, or even possibly our 4.

    I think adding Gasol now, would allow us to start building an identity, to make Toronto appealing to other players to join this team, and without any guaranteed pick for the next couple years, might as well do it now.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Sig wrote: View Post
    Nice thread, I'd like to add one more con for the Raptors though.

    If Gasol was acquired, we'd have 2 "slim" starting big men. Will this play a factor in the team defense even though both of them are good defenders? Maybe. But one thing is certain, expect a LOT of cheap fouls to be called against us.

    Regardless, I fully support this potential trade.
    That's a good point, no much bulk and banging in the paint - JV is a banger though - which could result in some easy baskets. BUT, what may, or may not make up for the lack of bulk, is the length. Two 7-footers, with crazy wing-spans? It'd be pretty hard to score in the paint when there are contested shots everywhere.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Blake or Duhon most likely, though the trade would even work with Earl Clark coming to the Raps. I'm sure they could either waive or trade away one of their min-wage players to free up the needed roster spot (or add a 3rd player to the deal).
    I would rather keep one of our players, than waive to bring in another player off of the Lakers' roster. It's not a very strong team. Earl Clark isn't your most productive 3 either.

    I'm sticking with the original Gasol & Blake for Bargnani, Calderon, & Kleiza. I believe best way to gain another player, would be to add the 3rd team.

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    Raptors would have to waive some players, but how about this?
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=aedzjf4

    Raptors:
    PG: Lowry / Barea / Lucas
    SG: Derozan / Ross / Fields / Anderson
    SF: Pietrus / Budinger / Kleiza
    PF: Davis / Williams / Johnson
    C: Pekovic / Valanciunas / Gray

    Wolves
    Rubio / Ridnour
    Roy / Shved / Lee
    Kirelenko / Howard
    Love / Cunningham / Amundson
    Gasol /Stiesma

    Lakers get their mercurial floor spacer and steady backup.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Zewo wrote: View Post
    Raptors would have to waive some players, but how about this?
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=aedzjf4

    Raptors:
    PG: Lowry / Barea / Lucas
    SG: Derozan / Ross / Fields / Anderson
    SF: Pietrus / Budinger / Kleiza
    PF: Davis / Williams / Johnson
    C: Pekovic / Valanciunas / Gray

    Wolves
    Rubio / Ridnour
    Roy / Shved / Lee
    Kirelenko / Howard
    Love / Cunningham / Amundson
    Gasol /Stiesma

    Lakers get their mercurial floor spacer and steady backup.
    I like it, but I think it would be better if we included Kleiza or Anderson to go to Minnesota, we can't have 16 players, and they probably aren't looking to have only 11-12 players.

    My opinion though on the lineup:

    PG: Lowry/Barea/Lucas
    SG: Derozan/Fields/Ross
    SF: Pietrus/Bundinger (Kleiza & Anderson sent to Minnesota/Los Angeles)
    PF: Pekovic/Davis/Johnson/Acy
    C: Valanciunas/Gray

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    BC doesn't want to get younger. His in win now mode.

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    Quote Zewo wrote: View Post
    Raptors would have to waive some players, but how about this?
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=aedzjf4

    Raptors:
    PG: Lowry / Barea / Lucas
    SG: Derozan / Ross / Fields / Anderson
    SF: Pietrus / Budinger / Kleiza
    PF: Davis / Williams / Johnson
    C: Pekovic / Valanciunas / Gray

    Wolves
    Rubio / Ridnour
    Roy / Shved / Lee
    Kirelenko / Howard
    Love / Cunningham / Amundson
    Gasol /Stiesma

    Lakers get their mercurial floor spacer and steady backup.
    A little optimistic...

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    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    BC doesn't want to get younger. His in win now mode.
    Agreed.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Sig wrote: View Post
    A little optimistic...
    Minny could be giving up too much, but maybe if they acquire Kleiza and Gasol, it could help them. They become a better team, and in win-now situation as well.

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