View Poll Results: What do you think?

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  • Take other teams sh!t for prospects & picks

    29 69.05%
  • Keep doing what we are doing. We already have talent!

    5 11.90%
  • Other (please tell in comments)

    8 19.05%
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Thread: Blow it up..... seriously

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  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Blow it up..... seriously

    Along the lines of this thread in the trade proposal forum, Dump your sh!t for prospects & picks!, I really think it is time to go the route I so often argued against.

    Lets face reality, even though BC refuses to acknowledge it, a lack of talent is a major problem in Toronto. There is not an all-star on the roster.

    There are 3 routes to get an all-star calibre talent:
    1. Free Agency
    2. Trade
    3. Draft


    Let look at each:

    Free agency: "I have decided to bring my talents to north of the 49th parallel." Ummm no. Not happening. The only shot Toronto has at anything in free agency is by overpaying role players.

    Trade: And what exactly is Toronto's assets going to return? Pau Gasol 5 years ago would have been phenomenal. Today he is just a huge improvement over Bargnani with a short shelf life remaining.

    Draft: Well now. Looky here. I think this is the answer. Luckily for Toronto they are already bad without trying. The problem of course is 2013 is a weak draft and they might not even have a pick. So it is time to be the receiver of other teams sh!t for prospects and picks. Guys who have come through the San Antonio system (Presti, Ferry) or in OKC under Presti (Cho, Hennigan) have been taking this route. It really is the way to go.

    Toronto is pretty lucky to be honest. They already have some young talent - it is just no killer elite talent. This is no big deal though, keep playing and developing that talent in a defense, rebound, work your ass off, accountible 4-way-tie-for-first-priority culture. Get back as many assets (1st ROUND DRAFT PICKS) as possible for other teams junk that has an expiration of no later than 2015-16. Go through the next 3 drafts (2.5 years) looking for as much TALENT as possible. Go in to the 2015 trade deadline with serious expiring contracts and/or 2015 free agency period with as much cap space as possible before extensions are needed for your own guys.

    The catch to all of this is the Raps may never draft that all-star/franchise talent, but you know what? Wouldn't you at least like to have the hope and promise of the draft and possible greatness year in and year out while watching crappy basketball versus what we are watching now (which is crappy basketball with no draft promise or greatness)??

    I'm not advocating tank, lets be clear on that. The Raptors are already bad, they don't need to tank. I'm advocating using the only means available over the next 2.5 years to get legitimate, young all-star talent on the roster.

    What do you think?

    **EDIT**

    Just to clarify (and this will be put in the original post as well):

    What do I mean by blow it up?


    1. fire management
    2. trade current veterans (Bargnani, Calderon, Kleiza, Amir) for worse contracts, like the worse of the worst in the league, for draft picks
    3. realize the current building process of the team is a giant FAIL and its ceiling is mediocrity if all goes according to plan.... for the love of sweet baby jesus the Raptors are the 2nd worst team in the league 21 games in!
    4. play the youth (DD, ED, TR, JV)


    The Raptors are actually ahead of the game on this process. They already have 3-4 decent young players. Another 2-3 drafts with multiple draft picks should do it. And if it does not, well, they'll be no worse off than they currently are: 2nd worst team in the league.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon Dec 10th, 2012 at 03:42 PM.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic Rookie Garbo's Avatar
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    Get a new GM in here, and build this team the right way. I am more than ready to blow this thing up

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    white wash the whole thing
    @jerboat

  4. #4
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I've been advocating for going the draft route for a while now, as it's the only way to have a solid chance at acquiring elite level talent for shall we say less attractive destinations for American players.

    You could say that this year is a weak draft crop, but we did get JV in what was considered a weak draft and we could have had Aldridge in a weak draft when BC took Bargnani instead.

    So first thing we have to do is get our pick back from OKC. Can anyone think of anyone on this team that OKC might want?

  5. #5
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    So first thing we have to do is get our pick back from OKC. Can anyone think of anyone on this team that OKC might want?
    Valanciunas.

  6. #6
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I've been advocating for going the draft route for a while now, as it's the only way to have a solid chance at acquiring elite level talent for shall we say less attractive destinations for American players.

    You could say that this year is a weak draft crop, but we did get JV in what was considered a weak draft and we could have had Aldridge in a weak draft when BC took Bargnani instead.

    So first thing we have to do is get our pick back from OKC. Can anyone think of anyone on this team that OKC might want?
    OKC is in win now, but also doesn't want to go into luxury tax. Only guy I could think of is Davis. He's on a cheap (ie, rookie contract). Has 3 years of experience now, and the Thunder gave up Aldrich in the Harden deal so could use a backup big. But they can't just take Davis without giving a player back, and that might be too much for them to also give up a potential first rounder. Otherwise we may have to take their worst contract (Perkins) and give them somebody good in return.

    Perkins has been a big disappointment but they could use him for Howard in the playoffs. If they want to give him up then we may be able to get the pick back if we traded Davis + Jose for Perkins + Maynor and our pick back. However we'd then be stuck with Perkins contract for 2 more years after this one.

    I don't see us getting it back without getting a turd of a contract back with it. I just hope the pick we give back to OKC doesn't end up becoming an all-star.

  7. #7
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    OKC is in win now, but also doesn't want to go into luxury tax. Only guy I could think of is Davis. He's on a cheap (ie, rookie contract). Has 3 years of experience now, and the Thunder gave up Aldrich in the Harden deal so could use a backup big. But they can't just take Davis without giving a player back, and that might be too much for them to also give up a potential first rounder. Otherwise we may have to take their worst contract (Perkins) and give them somebody good in return.

    Perkins has been a big disappointment but they could use him for Howard in the playoffs. If they want to give him up then we may be able to get the pick back if we traded Davis + Jose for Perkins + Maynor and our pick back. However we'd then be stuck with Perkins contract for 2 more years after this one.

    I don't see us getting it back without getting a turd of a contract back with it. I just hope the pick we give back to OKC doesn't end up becoming an all-star.
    Actually I don't think pairing JV with Perkins is bad at all. Perkins is tough, gritty, a bully and is one of the few players in the league that can guard D. Howard with out needing a double team. Also he'a s complete asshole that you hate to play against but love if he's on your team. He may not have the stats of Al Jefferson, but he can hold his own with scoring around the rim and rebounding. Only problem is that OKC needs him in the playoffs. ED isn't strong enough or battle tested in the playoffs. Really, the only player I could see OKC biting on to get our draft pick back would be on JV whom for obvious reasons isn't an option.

    I would think either Washington or Clevland would make better trading partners. Both teams have been in the lottery for several years now and want to start making a run at the playoffs. They would likely need more veteran players like Calderon, Kleiza and please oh please take Bargnani.

  8. #8
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I've been advocating for going the draft route for a while now, as it's the only way to have a solid chance at acquiring elite level talent for shall we say less attractive destinations for American players.

    You could say that this year is a weak draft crop, but we did get JV in what was considered a weak draft and we could have had Aldridge in a weak draft when BC took Bargnani instead.

    So first thing we have to do is get our pick back from OKC. Can anyone think of anyone on this team that OKC might want?
    Good point. A "weak" draft can still produce an impact player.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  9. #9
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Good point. A "weak" draft can still produce an impact player.
    Yup.

    Bargs draft class: Gay at 9. Rondo 21. Alridge 4. Roy (extreme example but was a 3x All-Star) 5.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #10
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What do you think?
    I thin you're frustrated and upset.

    We picked DeMar DeRozan and Terrence Ross with 9th overall picks. Do you think they will minor stars?

    Lottery picks are aptly named with very few sure things. And that's not even considering most of our assets will not bring a lottery pick in return, or whether there is a market for players like Landry Fields at the moment.

    I am not saying I have a better strategy, just that I believe what you suggest is the answer.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    We picked DeMar DeRozan and Terrence Ross with 9th overall picks. Do you think they will minor stars?

    Lottery picks are aptly named with very few sure things. And that's not even considering most of our assets will not bring a lottery pick in return, or whether there is a market for players like Landry Fields at the moment.

    I am not saying I have a better strategy, just that I believe what you suggest is the answer.
    I'm with Hugmenot on this one.
    **Hugs, did you mean to put "Not the answer" at the end there?

    Too many things could wrong while blowing it up, and end up leaving us with an even more talent-depleted team then we currently have.

    I'd rather continue to root for these guys, then send them all out for scraps and HOPE something down the line turns out to be an All-Star.

    With guys like Lowry, Derozan and JV (and Bargs when he's on; Calderon when he's healthy), we have guys who are proven talents, and proven to be effective players in the league. Perhaps not effective on the same team all at the same time, but they are proven assets. While none are All-Stars; Lowry, Derozan and JV all have the potential to play at a VERY high level for a LONG time. Are these not the types of players we'd hope to get back with these acquired Draft picks?

    I mean, I guess technically we're hoping for a "Kevin Durant" type player ... but what team isn't not named Miami/OKC/LA?
    Last edited by Joey; Mon Dec 10th, 2012 at 02:39 PM.
    In Masai we Trust.

  12. #12
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I'm with Hugmenot on this one.
    Too many things could wrong while blowing it up, and end up leaving us with an even more talent-depleted team then we currently have.

    I'd rather continue to root for these guys, then send them all out for scraps and HOPE something down the line turns out to be an All-Star.

    With guys like Lowry, Derozan and JV (and Bargs when he's on; Calderon when he's healthy), we have guys who are proven talents, and proven to be effective players in the league. Perhaps not effective on the same team all at the same time, but they are proven assets. While none are All-Stars; Lowry, Derozan and JV all have the potential to play at a VERY high level for a LONG time. Are these not the types of players we'd hope to get back with these acquired Draft picks?
    What like:

    going 4-17?

    having no all-star talent?

    calling a close game a good game?

    ending up with a roster of overpaid role players?

    watching the continued excuse of, well, they played well for 3 quarters but that one quarter really did them in?


    I probably should have clarified that blowing it up meant sending out veteran players who have contributed to nothing but losing in Toronto: Bargnani, Calderon, Amir, and Kleiza.

    I would very much keep JV, DD, TR, and ED unless their inclusion in a deal brought back more desirable assets. Everyone else is expendable.

    Actually, no, I don't hope to get back these types of players with the picks. The goal would be to get much better players because, yet again, that is the problem.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would very much keep JV, DD, TR, and ED unless their inclusion in a deal brought back more desirable assets. Everyone else is expendable.
    Okay, this minor clarification makes a huge difference in my response. Lol
    Although, I wouldn't be against keeping Amir.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    They need talent.
    I'm not completely sold that Talent is the big problem here.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    removes the Raptors from having a ceiling of a first round exit,
    At this point, I'm not sure we've seen enough from this roster to speculate what their ceiling is. In my opinion.
    We have some very talented players on this roster, who have not been playing the way it is known they can play.
    Whether or not they ever will, I'm not sure. But I'm not ready to speculate on that yet.
    In Masai we Trust.

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    At this point, I'm not sure we've seen enough from this roster to speculate what their ceiling is. In my opinion.
    We have some very talented players on this roster, who have not been playing the way it is known they can play.
    Whether or not they ever will, I'm not sure. But I'm not ready to speculate on that yet.
    IMO, "real" talent is evident from day-1. Guys like LeBron, Durant, Howard, Duncan, Shaq, Vince, etc. don't need 3+ years to learn how to dominate. Their immense skill is on display from the moment they start their NBA careers.

    That's the type of talent this team needs to get out of the cellar, and I can confidently say we don't have anyone that fits this description (including Jonas).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  15. #15
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What like:

    going 4-17?

    having no all-star talent?

    calling a close game a good game?

    ending up with a roster of overpaid role players?

    watching the continued excuse of, well, they played well for 3 quarters but that one quarter really did them in?


    I probably should have clarified that blowing it up meant sending out veteran players who have contributed to nothing but losing in Toronto: Bargnani, Calderon, Amir, and Kleiza.

    I would very much keep JV, DD, TR, and ED unless their inclusion in a deal brought back more desirable assets. Everyone else is expendable.

    Actually, no, I don't hope to get back these types of players with the picks. The goal would be to get much better players because, yet again, that is the problem.
    Things make look brighter if AB and JC are gone. These two need to be moved now.

  16. #16
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Things make look brighter if AB and JC are gone. These two need to be moved now.
    In truth we should have seen this coming from the very start. JC should have been traded immediately after acquiring Lowry. We traded away a first round pick for the guy, and we kept a $10m backup point guard? Why? It made absolutely no sense then and it makes no sense right now that he's still here. I don't care that Lowry missed some time. You traded away the 2013 draft pick making the obvious assumption that you assumed this team was good enough to make the playoffs and thus render that draft pick moot, but you held on to a perfectly good trade asset.. for what? A rainy day? And now, we're 4-17 and Jose is still mysteriously on the roster. Makes absolutely no sense at all.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  17. #17
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I'm with Hugmenot on this one.
    **Hugs, did you mean to put "Not the answer" at the end there?
    Yes; that will teach me to write posts while attending boring Go Live/No Go meetings. The decision was already made but like most large corporations, we like to make sure everyone agrees so that no one is accountable for the decision.

  18. #18
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I thin you're frustrated and upset.

    We picked DeMar DeRozan and Terrence Ross with 9th overall picks. Do you think they will minor stars?

    Lottery picks are aptly named with very few sure things. And that's not even considering most of our assets will not bring a lottery pick in return, or whether there is a market for players like Landry Fields at the moment.

    I am not saying I have a better strategy, just that I believe what you suggest is the answer.
    I'm not frustrated or upset - anymore. Those stages of grief posts that were on the main page are hilariously funny because they are true.

    The fact Toronto picked DD or TR at 9 and 8 is irrelevant. Top talent is not always drafted in the top 3, 4, 5, lottery, or even first round.

    Toronto's assets aren't going to bring back lottery picks - good heaven's no. But other teams with really bad assets might give up desirable assets to rid their problem. Detroit sending Gordon to Charlotte for Maggette and a 1st round pick comes immediately to mind.

    Also, the accumulation of assets - desirable assets - might also lead to a situation where Toronto can land a top talent. Houston's acquisition of Harden comes immediately to mind.

    At this point in time in the Raptors history, I can think of no better plan especially considering they already have young talent on board with DeRozan, Ross, JV, and ED (although Davis is a career backup big, imo, but a good one).
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #19
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm not frustrated or upset - anymore. Those stages of grief posts that were on the main page are hilariously funny because they are true.

    The fact Toronto picked DD or TR at 9 and 8 is irrelevant. Top talent is not always drafted in the top 3, 4, 5, lottery, or even first round.
    Toronto's assets aren't going to bring back lottery picks - good heaven's no. But other teams with really bad assets might give up desirable assets to rid their problem. Detroit sending Gordon to Charlotte for Maggette and a 1st round pick comes immediately to mind.

    Also, the accumulation of assets - desirable assets - might also lead to a situation where Toronto can land a top talent. Houston's acquisition of Harden comes immediately to mind.

    At this point in time in the Raptors history, I can think of no better plan especially considering they already have young talent on board with DeRozan, Ross, JV, and ED (although Davis is a career backup big, imo, but a good one).
    Your bolded statement is what scares me about taking the approach of blowing it all up and starting a completely new 3-5 year rebuild from scratch, by taking on bad contracts to accumulate assets (ie: picks and youngsters). Regardless who the GM is, even if a solid pick is made (based on consensus at time of pick), there is absolutely no guarantee that the team will be any better in 3-5 years than it is now (or projected to be in 1-3 years from now with the current core).

    I argued this all of last year and have reiterated it in a few posts recently, that the only problem with BC's post-Bosh rebuild is that he rushed it. DeRozan, Davis and Valanciunas were all pretty decent picks for where they were picked. The problem is that after drafting Valanciunas, BC rushed from rebuilding into building. Valanciunas was going to stay in Europe for at least one season, a new head coach was hired and it was a lockout-shortened season with no training camp... it was a perfect storm to go into full-tank mode: trade away high priced, veteran, expiring and non-core players for assets (picks and youngsters), while aiming for a top-5 (at least) pick in a loaded draft.

    After adding a top-5 pick from the past draft (instead of Ross) and stockpiling other picks and young assets, who knows what subsequent moves BC could have made (ie: Harden??) this past offseason (as opposed to going all-in on a geriatric Nash and the overpaying for Fields in an at least semi-related move). This season should have been the first 'building' season, with playoffs not becoming a realistic goal until next season at the very earliest, which would have gone a long way towards tempering fan expectations.

    I do 100% agree that this team's biggest problem is a lack of talent. IMO, this team only has 1 legitimate starter on the roster, and he's an increasingly selfish shoot-first PG who's overrated defensively (Lowry). Valanciunas will no doubt become a legit starter, but he's at least 2 seasons away from becoming that. Bargnani & DeRozan are this team's 2 'go to' players (offensively), but both of them have such inefficient one-dimensional games that they are best suited for backup roles on a legit contending team. Davis/Amir, Fields (if he returns to form after returning to injury) and Ross (2 seasons away) are all solid bench players as well. The rest of this roster (Gray, Acy, Kleiza, Pietrus, Anderson, Calderon, Lucas) are not in the future plans for this team, for various/multiple reasons.

    I don't think a blow-it-up full blown rebuild is necessarily required, nor would I be opposed to it (in which case Valanciunas is the only player on the roster I'd worry about keeping). Whether it's a re-tooling type of rebuild or a complete rebuild, I just want it to be properly done without being rushed, with the long-term future in mind and with a goal/model for success to be sustainable.


    ---

    On a related note, one thing that irks me is that I was in a very small minority last year when I was openly promoting tanking, for the reasons outlined above. This minority of RR posters was chastised for not believing in our great young players and for underestimating the intangible benefit that useless wins provides to team chemistry and building a winning culture. Yet here we are this season, having won all those useless games last season and having stuck with the same primary core, and suddenly an overwhelming majority of RR posters is voting to "Blow it up"... what happened to developing a winning culture and sticking with our young core through the learning experience in the name of team chemistry??? Sometimes there's a method to the madness of the tank commanders...
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Dec 11th, 2012 at 12:54 PM.

  20. #20
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Your bolded statement is what scares me about taking the approach of blowing it all up and starting a completely new 3-5 year rebuild from scratch, by taking on bad contracts to accumulate assets (ie: picks and youngsters). Regardless who the GM is, even if a solid pick is made (based on consensus at time of pick), there is absolutely no guarantee that the team will be any better in 3-5 years than it is now (or projected to be in 1-3 years from now with the current core).

    I argued this all of last year and have reiterated it in a few posts recently, that the only problem with BC's post-Bosh rebuild is that he rushed it. DeRozan, Davis and Valanciunas were all pretty decent picks for where they were picked. The problem is that after drafting Valanciunas, BC rushed from rebuilding into building. Valanciunas was going to stay in Europe for at least one season, a new head coach was hired and it was a lockout-shortened season with no training camp... it was a perfect storm to go into full-tank mode: trade away high priced, veteran, expiring and non-core players for assets (picks and youngsters), while aiming for a top-5 (at least) pick in a loaded draft.

    After adding a top-5 pick from the past draft (instead of Ross) and stockpiling other picks and young assets, who knows what subsequent moves BC could have made (ie: Harden??) this past offseason (as opposed to going all-in on a geriatric Nash and the overpaying for Fields in an at least semi-related move). This season should have been the first 'building' season, with playoffs not becoming a realistic goal until next season at the very earliest, which would have gone a long way towards tempering fan expectations.

    I do 100% agree that this team's biggest problem is a lack of talent. IMO, this team only has 1 legitimate starter on the roster, and he's an increasingly selfish shoot-first PG who's overrated defensively (Lowry). Valanciunas will no doubt become a legit starter, but he's at least 2 seasons away from becoming that. Bargnani & DeRozan are this team's 2 'go to' players (offensively), but both of them have such inefficient one-dimensional games that they are best suited for backup roles on a legit contending team. Davis/Amir, Fields (if he returns to form after returning to injury) and Ross (2 seasons away) are all solid bench players as well. The rest of this roster (Gray, Acy, Kleiza, Pietrus, Anderson, Calderon, Lucas) are not in the future plans for this team, for various/multiple reasons.

    I don't think a blow-it-up full blown rebuild is necessarily required, nor would I be opposed to it (in which case Valanciunas is the only player on the roster I'd worry about keeping). Whether it's a re-tooling type of rebuild or a complete rebuild, I just want it to be properly done without being rushed, with the long-term future in mind and with a goal/model for success to be sustainable.


    ---

    On a related note, one thing that irks me is that how I was in a very small minority last year when I was openly promoting tanking, for the reasons outlined above. This minority of RR posters was chastised for not believing in our great young players and for underestimating the intangible benefit that useless wins provides to team chemistry and building a winning culture. Yet here we are this season, having won all those useless games last season and having stuck with the same primary core, and suddenly an overwhelming majority of RR posters is voting to "Blow it up"... what happened to developing a winning culture and sticking with our young core as learning experience in the name of team chemistry??? Sometimes there's a method to the madness of the tank commanders...

    First bold section: more draft picks equals higher opportunity in the lottery and more chances to find the elusive 'talent'.

    The middle section is coulda, shoulda, woulda. Past doesn't matter. We didn't get a top pick.

    Second bold section: You were right. So were the others. I, like many, were wrong. The problem with last year is that none of those lessons learned have stuck. This is the 2nd worst team in the league who has lost in a variety of ways to a variety of different talent. The only constants are a horrible offense/defense and losing.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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