View Poll Results: What do you think?

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  • Take other teams sh!t for prospects & picks

    29 69.05%
  • Keep doing what we are doing. We already have talent!

    5 11.90%
  • Other (please tell in comments)

    8 19.05%
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Thread: Blow it up..... seriously

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Blow it up..... seriously

    Along the lines of this thread in the trade proposal forum, Dump your sh!t for prospects & picks!, I really think it is time to go the route I so often argued against.

    Lets face reality, even though BC refuses to acknowledge it, a lack of talent is a major problem in Toronto. There is not an all-star on the roster.

    There are 3 routes to get an all-star calibre talent:
    1. Free Agency
    2. Trade
    3. Draft


    Let look at each:

    Free agency: "I have decided to bring my talents to north of the 49th parallel." Ummm no. Not happening. The only shot Toronto has at anything in free agency is by overpaying role players.

    Trade: And what exactly is Toronto's assets going to return? Pau Gasol 5 years ago would have been phenomenal. Today he is just a huge improvement over Bargnani with a short shelf life remaining.

    Draft: Well now. Looky here. I think this is the answer. Luckily for Toronto they are already bad without trying. The problem of course is 2013 is a weak draft and they might not even have a pick. So it is time to be the receiver of other teams sh!t for prospects and picks. Guys who have come through the San Antonio system (Presti, Ferry) or in OKC under Presti (Cho, Hennigan) have been taking this route. It really is the way to go.

    Toronto is pretty lucky to be honest. They already have some young talent - it is just no killer elite talent. This is no big deal though, keep playing and developing that talent in a defense, rebound, work your ass off, accountible 4-way-tie-for-first-priority culture. Get back as many assets (1st ROUND DRAFT PICKS) as possible for other teams junk that has an expiration of no later than 2015-16. Go through the next 3 drafts (2.5 years) looking for as much TALENT as possible. Go in to the 2015 trade deadline with serious expiring contracts and/or 2015 free agency period with as much cap space as possible before extensions are needed for your own guys.

    The catch to all of this is the Raps may never draft that all-star/franchise talent, but you know what? Wouldn't you at least like to have the hope and promise of the draft and possible greatness year in and year out while watching crappy basketball versus what we are watching now (which is crappy basketball with no draft promise or greatness)??

    I'm not advocating tank, lets be clear on that. The Raptors are already bad, they don't need to tank. I'm advocating using the only means available over the next 2.5 years to get legitimate, young all-star talent on the roster.

    What do you think?

    **EDIT**

    Just to clarify (and this will be put in the original post as well):

    What do I mean by blow it up?


    1. fire management
    2. trade current veterans (Bargnani, Calderon, Kleiza, Amir) for worse contracts, like the worse of the worst in the league, for draft picks
    3. realize the current building process of the team is a giant FAIL and its ceiling is mediocrity if all goes according to plan.... for the love of sweet baby jesus the Raptors are the 2nd worst team in the league 21 games in!
    4. play the youth (DD, ED, TR, JV)


    The Raptors are actually ahead of the game on this process. They already have 3-4 decent young players. Another 2-3 drafts with multiple draft picks should do it. And if it does not, well, they'll be no worse off than they currently are: 2nd worst team in the league.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon Dec 10th, 2012 at 03:42 PM.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic Rookie Garbo's Avatar
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    Get a new GM in here, and build this team the right way. I am more than ready to blow this thing up

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    white wash the whole thing
    @jerboat

  4. #4
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What do you think?
    I thin you're frustrated and upset.

    We picked DeMar DeRozan and Terrence Ross with 9th overall picks. Do you think they will minor stars?

    Lottery picks are aptly named with very few sure things. And that's not even considering most of our assets will not bring a lottery pick in return, or whether there is a market for players like Landry Fields at the moment.

    I am not saying I have a better strategy, just that I believe what you suggest is the answer.

  5. #5
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I've been advocating for going the draft route for a while now, as it's the only way to have a solid chance at acquiring elite level talent for shall we say less attractive destinations for American players.

    You could say that this year is a weak draft crop, but we did get JV in what was considered a weak draft and we could have had Aldridge in a weak draft when BC took Bargnani instead.

    So first thing we have to do is get our pick back from OKC. Can anyone think of anyone on this team that OKC might want?

  6. #6
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I really wanted to vote "blow it up", but under the wrong GM that could seriously backfire. I have no faith that the Raptors would let go of Bryan. I see him as President continuing to make the calls to all the "yes men" that he ends up hiring.

    Blowing it up the wrong way can turn the team into the LA Clippers of the 80's and 90's. Yes we have been bad for a long time, but continuing to be very bad can be catastrophic.

    If we had a new GM then yes, blowing it up makes sense. But under the current regime, I would be too scared if that took place, especially since our GM thinks we have talented players already, and has a history of not buying draft picks.

  7. #7
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    I think any fix here is at least 3-4 years away. This is why I thought they should have went in a different direction with a new GM after Bosh left: it isn't just about 1 year or 2 years to give a guy a chance cause if you don't make any progress you are losing those seasons and extending your rebuilding timeline not just by those years but additional time you need to clean up the new mess. Too many wasted years.

    Now, you're looking at another rebuild that will take 3-5 years. You can argue, as I would, that it will be a new regime and you need to give it time but the larger context matters. Can MLSE sell another rebuild to season ticket holders, suite buyers, advertisers, etc.? You could be looking at another 3 or 4 seasons (after this one) with no playoffs. That's close to 10 years. And, has as long been discussed, there are no guarantees such a rebuild would work.

    I think the one piece I would like to see is acquiring players through non-traditional means. This team has never had a productive second round pick (that I can remember). The last Euro free agent we signed that was any good was Garbajosa even though there are more foreign players in the NBA than ever before. If you can't sign free agents then you need to acquire talent elsewhere and this organization hasn't ever been successful at doing that.

  8. #8
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    So first thing we have to do is get our pick back from OKC. Can anyone think of anyone on this team that OKC might want?
    Valanciunas.

  9. #9
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I've been advocating for going the draft route for a while now, as it's the only way to have a solid chance at acquiring elite level talent for shall we say less attractive destinations for American players.

    You could say that this year is a weak draft crop, but we did get JV in what was considered a weak draft and we could have had Aldridge in a weak draft when BC took Bargnani instead.

    So first thing we have to do is get our pick back from OKC. Can anyone think of anyone on this team that OKC might want?
    OKC is in win now, but also doesn't want to go into luxury tax. Only guy I could think of is Davis. He's on a cheap (ie, rookie contract). Has 3 years of experience now, and the Thunder gave up Aldrich in the Harden deal so could use a backup big. But they can't just take Davis without giving a player back, and that might be too much for them to also give up a potential first rounder. Otherwise we may have to take their worst contract (Perkins) and give them somebody good in return.

    Perkins has been a big disappointment but they could use him for Howard in the playoffs. If they want to give him up then we may be able to get the pick back if we traded Davis + Jose for Perkins + Maynor and our pick back. However we'd then be stuck with Perkins contract for 2 more years after this one.

    I don't see us getting it back without getting a turd of a contract back with it. I just hope the pick we give back to OKC doesn't end up becoming an all-star.

  10. #10
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    We picked DeMar DeRozan and Terrence Ross with 9th overall picks. Do you think they will minor stars?

    Lottery picks are aptly named with very few sure things. And that's not even considering most of our assets will not bring a lottery pick in return, or whether there is a market for players like Landry Fields at the moment.

    I am not saying I have a better strategy, just that I believe what you suggest is the answer.
    I'm with Hugmenot on this one.
    **Hugs, did you mean to put "Not the answer" at the end there?

    Too many things could wrong while blowing it up, and end up leaving us with an even more talent-depleted team then we currently have.

    I'd rather continue to root for these guys, then send them all out for scraps and HOPE something down the line turns out to be an All-Star.

    With guys like Lowry, Derozan and JV (and Bargs when he's on; Calderon when he's healthy), we have guys who are proven talents, and proven to be effective players in the league. Perhaps not effective on the same team all at the same time, but they are proven assets. While none are All-Stars; Lowry, Derozan and JV all have the potential to play at a VERY high level for a LONG time. Are these not the types of players we'd hope to get back with these acquired Draft picks?

    I mean, I guess technically we're hoping for a "Kevin Durant" type player ... but what team isn't not named Miami/OKC/LA?
    Last edited by Joey; Mon Dec 10th, 2012 at 02:39 PM.
    In Masai we Trust.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I thin you're frustrated and upset.

    We picked DeMar DeRozan and Terrence Ross with 9th overall picks. Do you think they will minor stars?

    Lottery picks are aptly named with very few sure things. And that's not even considering most of our assets will not bring a lottery pick in return, or whether there is a market for players like Landry Fields at the moment.

    I am not saying I have a better strategy, just that I believe what you suggest is the answer.
    I'm not frustrated or upset - anymore. Those stages of grief posts that were on the main page are hilariously funny because they are true.

    The fact Toronto picked DD or TR at 9 and 8 is irrelevant. Top talent is not always drafted in the top 3, 4, 5, lottery, or even first round.

    Toronto's assets aren't going to bring back lottery picks - good heaven's no. But other teams with really bad assets might give up desirable assets to rid their problem. Detroit sending Gordon to Charlotte for Maggette and a 1st round pick comes immediately to mind.

    Also, the accumulation of assets - desirable assets - might also lead to a situation where Toronto can land a top talent. Houston's acquisition of Harden comes immediately to mind.

    At this point in time in the Raptors history, I can think of no better plan especially considering they already have young talent on board with DeRozan, Ross, JV, and ED (although Davis is a career backup big, imo, but a good one).
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  12. #12
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I'm with Hugmenot on this one.
    Too many things could wrong while blowing it up, and end up leaving us with an even more talent-depleted team then we currently have.

    I'd rather continue to root for these guys, then send them all out for scraps and HOPE something down the line turns out to be an All-Star.

    With guys like Lowry, Derozan and JV (and Bargs when he's on; Calderon when he's healthy), we have guys who are proven talents, and proven to be effective players in the league. Perhaps not effective on the same team all at the same time, but they are proven assets. While none are All-Stars; Lowry, Derozan and JV all have the potential to play at a VERY high level for a LONG time. Are these not the types of players we'd hope to get back with these acquired Draft picks?
    What like:

    going 4-17?

    having no all-star talent?

    calling a close game a good game?

    ending up with a roster of overpaid role players?

    watching the continued excuse of, well, they played well for 3 quarters but that one quarter really did them in?


    I probably should have clarified that blowing it up meant sending out veteran players who have contributed to nothing but losing in Toronto: Bargnani, Calderon, Amir, and Kleiza.

    I would very much keep JV, DD, TR, and ED unless their inclusion in a deal brought back more desirable assets. Everyone else is expendable.

    Actually, no, I don't hope to get back these types of players with the picks. The goal would be to get much better players because, yet again, that is the problem.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  13. #13
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I really wanted to vote "blow it up", but under the wrong GM that could seriously backfire. I have no faith that the Raptors would let go of Bryan. I see him as President continuing to make the calls to all the "yes men" that he ends up hiring.

    Blowing it up the wrong way can turn the team into the LA Clippers of the 80's and 90's. Yes we have been bad for a long time, but continuing to be very bad can be catastrophic.

    If we had a new GM then yes, blowing it up makes sense. But under the current regime, I would be too scared if that took place, especially since our GM thinks we have talented players already, and has a history of not buying draft picks.
    Oh yeah. I've already packed his bags.

    BC is as good as gone in my mind.

    And you are right, BC in charge of another rebuild effort is the wrong position to take.

    Cleveland, Charlotte, NOH, Atlanta to name a couple of recent teams to 'blow it up' have all brought in new management to get it started.

    BC's underhanded jabs at DC and Ross while saying there is enough talent on the team is the last straw. He needs to GTFO Toronto.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    OKC is in win now, but also doesn't want to go into luxury tax. Only guy I could think of is Davis. He's on a cheap (ie, rookie contract). Has 3 years of experience now, and the Thunder gave up Aldrich in the Harden deal so could use a backup big. But they can't just take Davis without giving a player back, and that might be too much for them to also give up a potential first rounder. Otherwise we may have to take their worst contract (Perkins) and give them somebody good in return.

    Perkins has been a big disappointment but they could use him for Howard in the playoffs. If they want to give him up then we may be able to get the pick back if we traded Davis + Jose for Perkins + Maynor and our pick back. However we'd then be stuck with Perkins contract for 2 more years after this one.

    I don't see us getting it back without getting a turd of a contract back with it. I just hope the pick we give back to OKC doesn't end up becoming an all-star.
    Actually I don't think pairing JV with Perkins is bad at all. Perkins is tough, gritty, a bully and is one of the few players in the league that can guard D. Howard with out needing a double team. Also he'a s complete asshole that you hate to play against but love if he's on your team. He may not have the stats of Al Jefferson, but he can hold his own with scoring around the rim and rebounding. Only problem is that OKC needs him in the playoffs. ED isn't strong enough or battle tested in the playoffs. Really, the only player I could see OKC biting on to get our draft pick back would be on JV whom for obvious reasons isn't an option.

    I would think either Washington or Clevland would make better trading partners. Both teams have been in the lottery for several years now and want to start making a run at the playoffs. They would likely need more veteran players like Calderon, Kleiza and please oh please take Bargnani.

  15. #15
    Raptors Republic All-Star
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    This years draft might not have any 'superstars' but there are many good players in college right now.

    Kentucky alone will have a few prospects that could declare(Poyethess, Goodwin) and KU kids can typically play in the NBA. I will get into specific prospects later on in the year but the startegy should be to add another young piece in this draft which will ensure you are adding young talen but it won't be an immediate impact guy so you also won't be that good next year and will give yourself a chance in the Wiggins sweepstakes.

    I am convinced that Stern will give us the kid to bolster his international nba vision. A Canadian playing in Canada and this kid has all of the tools to be a mega star in the league. One last piece of meddling for the greatest commissioner of all time!

  16. #16
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Durant! Lebron! Davis! Great! Thabeet...Morrison...Oden...almost all of AB's draft year...hmmm. It's a sucker's bet. You win, awesome. You lose, you may lose the franchise. Our PG situation? It'll do. SG? improving. Centre? He'll get there. PF...jury's split (well, it used to be split). Sf? Gotta find one of those. So keep playing, keep trying to win. Remember that most of these respected draft planned teams are successful because of luck.

  17. #17
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    This years draft might not have any 'superstars' but there are many good players in college right now.

    Kentucky alone will have a few prospects that could declare(Poyethess, Goodwin) and KU kids can typically play in the NBA. I will get into specific prospects later on in the year but the startegy should be to add another young piece in this draft which will ensure you are adding young talen but it won't be an immediate impact guy so you also won't be that good next year and will give yourself a chance in the Wiggins sweepstakes.

    I am convinced that Stern will give us the kid to bolster his international nba vision. A Canadian playing in Canada and this kid has all of the tools to be a mega star in the league. One last piece of meddling for the greatest commissioner of all time!
    Sadly Stern retires in February and the draft lottery is no until May 2014.

    Wiggins has been called the type of player who comes once every 10-20 years by a scout (can't remember the quote). But it is not all about Wiggins though. There will be other talents. The hard part is being in position to draft them and identifying them. The more picks the more chances hence "Dump you sh!t for prospects & picks!"
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #18
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    Durant! Lebron! Davis! Great! Thabeet...Morrison...Oden...almost all of AB's draft year...hmmm. It's a sucker's bet. You win, awesome. You lose, you may lose the franchise. Our PG situation? It'll do. SG? improving. Centre? He'll get there. PF...jury's split (well, it used to be split). Sf? Gotta find one of those. So keep playing, keep trying to win. Remember that most of these respected draft planned teams are successful because of luck.
    I support this message.
    In Masai we Trust.

  19. #19
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    Durant! Lebron! Davis! Great! Thabeet...Morrison...Oden...almost all of AB's draft year...hmmm. It's a sucker's bet. You win, awesome. You lose, you may lose the franchise. Our PG situation? It'll do. SG? improving. Centre? He'll get there. PF...jury's split (well, it used to be split). Sf? Gotta find one of those. So keep playing, keep trying to win. Remember that most of these respected draft planned teams are successful because of luck.
    And the Raptors disrespected team is unsuccessful because they suck.

    They need talent.

    I have yet to find a response that addresses a lack of talent and:

    1) removes the Raptors from having a ceiling of a first round exit, and
    2) lands talent in Toronto - free agency? History says no. Trade? With what assets and history says no.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  20. #20
    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    I think I would rather have a perennially competitive team that is not dependent upon a single star. My dream is to have a team like Denver. Lots of cogs in the wheel, well-coached basketball. I would rather not have to wait 5 years (past + future "rebuilding") in the hopes of landing a single player that may or may not turn into the player that we need, who may or may not stick with the Raps after getting out of the "rebuilding" phase. I don't think this team is that far away, despite its record. So descending further into the rebuild seems crazy to me at this point in the season. Maybe my tune will change after the all-star break.

    Trade Bargs. Its gotta happen. See what we get back. Maybe it is a draft pick. Maybe we get back an expiring. I dunno what's out there. But I think this has to be the first chip to fall before other more drastic changes are considered.

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