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  • #61
    Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Whether it's the 4th pick, or the 15th pick, I'm fine with giving OKC the pick.
    you are a bigger man than most of the people in this town. The collective psyche of the basketball loving crowd in this city will explode if we go through another terrible losing season only to wind up giving up pick #4 (or even 5 or 6). That stench will last a long time (somewhere between the vince trade and Araujo)

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    • #62
      Jclaw wrote: View Post
      you are a bigger man than most of the people in this town. The collective psyche of the basketball loving crowd in this city will explode if we go through another terrible losing season only to wind up giving up pick #4 (or even 5 or 6). That stench will last a long time (somewhere between the vince trade and Araujo)
      My reasoning is that, at some point over the next 5 years, we owe OKC a lottery pick. That's an inevitability. So it makes the most sense to lose that pick in what's expected to be a weak draft.

      We can then set our sights on the Andrew Wiggins Sweepstakes of 2014

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      • #63
        Matt52 wrote: View Post
        Recent success with this theory:

        Irving to CLE was through Baron Davis trade and Clipper's pick.
        Lillard to POR was through Wallace to NJ/Brooklyn.
        I want to believe your theory but I agree that no one is lining up to give us high draft picks for any or all of AB, JC, Kleiza and Amir. Sure, we gave up an ok pick for Lowry (no pun intended). But, one, none of those players are perceived to be as good as lowry and, two, that was Colangelo making the deal.

        You give to examples. One is based on a pick coming through on a 2.8% chance to win the lottery. I'll even grant you there is a 10% chance to get into the top three. Are those solid odds for building a team? The next example was not a salary dump..the Nets resigned Wallace (they wanted him). It was also the exceptional circumstance of a basement dwelling team being moved and bought by a gazillionaire. That won't happen too often.

        There may be better examples out there, so find them if they are. Otherwise, I can't advocate the plan of trying to succeed by buying your lottery ticket at the corner store that just sold the last winning one.

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        • #64
          Jclaw wrote: View Post
          It was also the exceptional circumstance of a basement dwelling team being moved and bought by a gazillionaire. That won't happen too often.
          At this point, wouldn't you be willing to trade our Italian Millionaire to the Russion Billionaire for the PF they seem to be marginalizing (Kris Humphries) who's deal expires after next year? I know that deal can't happen until Jan when recent contract movement restrictions are lifted, but wouldn't K-Hump be a better fit stylistically for this team and would give us a nice expiring deal next year to trade. Plus, there were people interested in K-Hump last off-season, but the Nets simply out-bid them. Perhaps those teams are still interested and are willing to give us a first rounder along with their own salary dump.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • #65
            Jclaw wrote: View Post
            I want to believe your theory but I agree that no one is lining up to give us high draft picks for any or all of AB, JC, Kleiza and Amir. Sure, we gave up an ok pick for Lowry (no pun intended). But, one, none of those players are perceived to be as good as lowry and, two, that was Colangelo making the deal.

            You give to examples. One is based on a pick coming through on a 2.8% chance to win the lottery. I'll even grant you there is a 10% chance to get into the top three. Are those solid odds for building a team? The next example was not a salary dump..the Nets resigned Wallace (they wanted him). It was also the exceptional circumstance of a basement dwelling team being moved and bought by a gazillionaire. That won't happen too often.

            There may be better examples out there, so find them if they are. Otherwise, I can't advocate the plan of trying to succeed by buying your lottery ticket at the corner store that just sold the last winning one.
            And what is the alternative? Stay on the same path and be horrible?

            The Raptors are already going to be a horrible team for the forseeable future. They might as well take on bad contracts and get more picks to increase their odds. 4-18. 2nd worst team in the league. bottom 10 on O. Bottom 5 on D.


            One path has no chance. The other path has a small chance. I take small chance over no chance any day. Also, there is generally more than 1 great talent in a draft and that talent is not always selected #1. More draft picks that are likely to be lottery increases opportunities to land a top talent via the draft.

            I know the circumstances how Wallace was obtained. The point was the Blazers got a pick and it turned in to Lillard.

            The Raptors are already ahead in the game with 4 decent young players on the roster.

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            • #66
              The bottom line is that I'd rather have Cleveland's roster than Toronto's. Both have similar records, but Cleveland has stock piled draft picks and cap space. They already have a franchise player in Irving as well.

              They haven't done a good job in drafting, in my opinion, but have gone about rebuilding the right way. That's the type of model that I would have liked to seen in Toronto once Bosh left. It's not too late to try again though. It just has to be done with a better GM.

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              • #67
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                The Raptors are already going to be a horrible team for the forseeable future.
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                One path has no chance. The other path has a small chance. I take small chance over no chance any day.
                But these are both 100% speculation and completely your opinion; neither has any real proof to back it up besides our slow/shitty start to the season. Which has, don't get me wrong, been excrutiatingly slow & shitty.

                The signs have not been promising, no, but I don't believe 21 games make an entire season; a season that I wasn't even expecting to make the playoffs in anyway.

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                • #68
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  And what is the alternative? Stay on the same path and be horrible?

                  The Raptors are already going to be a horrible team for the forseeable future. They might as well take on bad contracts and get more picks to increase their odds. 4-18. 2nd worst team in the league. bottom 10 on O. Bottom 5 on D.


                  One path has no chance. The other path has a small chance. I take small chance over no chance any day. Also, there is generally more than 1 great talent in a draft and that talent is not always selected #1. More draft picks that are likely to be lottery increases opportunities to land a top talent via the draft.

                  I know the circumstances how Wallace was obtained. The point was the Blazers got a pick and it turned in to Lillard.

                  The Raptors are already ahead in the game with 4 decent young players on the roster.
                  +1

                  It's being afraid of drastic change that kept us from trading Bosh and hoping that AB would someday turning into an All Star. Cut your loses and move on, but just don't stand still. You have to respect a GM like Morey whom doesn't rely on hope to get his team ahead. He looks at the situation, evaluates and then does what is necessary to give his team the best chance. The slow death BC is putting us through isn't part of any grand plan that he has to turn this team around. It's based on him not wanting to take chances.

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                  • #69
                    joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                    But these are both 100% speculation and completely your opinion; neither has any real proof to back it up besides our slow/shitty start to the season. Which has, don't get me wrong, been excrutiatingly slow & shitty.

                    The signs have not been promising, no, but I don't believe 21 games make an entire season; a season that I wasn't even expecting to make the playoffs in anyway.
                    I'm sorry.

                    In my opinion the Raptors are already going to be a horrible team for the forseeable future because they have the same management making decisions that has lead to a 5 year playoff drought and are currently in 2nd last place in the entire league with a bottom 10 offense and a bottom 5 defense.

                    In my opinion, 22 games does in fact make a season when the record is 4-18, the playoffs are out of the question, and there is no sign of change on the horizon.

                    The season can be salvaged, in my opinion, but it is going to take drastic changes starting with #tradeBargnani and Colangelo's departure.

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                    • #70
                      Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                      +1

                      It's being afraid of drastic change that kept us from trading Bosh and hoping that AB would someday turning into an All Star. Cut your loses and move on, but just don't stand still. You have to respect a GM like Morey whom doesn't rely on hope to get his team ahead. He looks at the situation, evaluates and then does what is necessary to give his team the best chance. The slow death BC is putting us through isn't part of any grand plan that he has to turn this team around. It's based on him not wanting to take chances.
                      So much truth to this. People tend to fear change.

                      Colangelo has been fighting the inevitable for years, and has simply wasted time in the process.

                      Time to tear down and rebuild.

                      Perfect situation right now would be to get a first round pick for Bargnani (anywhere in the first round), keep Jose and let him expire (can then resign cheap next year or not, doesn't matter.). Don't worry about whether we win or lose games this year, play the young guys (start Jonas and Ross) hope the team is atleast good enough so that the pick is sent to OKC and is out of our hair. See what else can be moved to free up cap space (Demar!) so the team can add bad contracts and high picks.

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                      • #71
                        joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                        But these are both 100% speculation and completely your opinion; neither has any real proof to back it up besides our slow/shitty start to the season. Which has, don't get me wrong, been excrutiatingly slow & shitty.

                        The signs have not been promising, no, but I don't believe 21 games make an entire season; a season that I wasn't even expecting to make the playoffs in anyway.
                        It isn't speculation. This team was awful two years ago and awful last year. They have been awful this year. Like it or not, most of the same players are around. It isn't just about these past 22 games, it's about the games over the last three years. The team is awful, not getting any better, and they still do not have one young player who projects as a superstar.

                        This is about an awful roster, a team in disarray, a failed plan, and a coaching system that seems to have run its course in 80 games. There are no positive signs.

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                        • #72
                          slaw wrote: View Post
                          It isn't speculation. This team was awful two years ago and awful last year. They have been awful this year. Like it or not, most of the same players are around. It isn't just about these past 22 games, it's about the games over the last three years. The team is awful, not getting any better, and they still do not have one young player who projects as a superstar.

                          This is about an awful roster, a team in disarray, a failed plan, and a coaching system that seems to have run its course in 80 games. There are no positive signs.
                          + infinity and beyond.

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                          • #73
                            Nilanka wrote: View Post
                            Whether it's the 4th pick, or the 15th pick, I'm fine with giving OKC the pick.
                            Fair. Emotionally it is painful, but the reality is the pick is gone, time to move on.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              I'm not frustrated or upset - anymore. Those stages of grief posts that were on the main page are hilariously funny because they are true.

                              The fact Toronto picked DD or TR at 9 and 8 is irrelevant. Top talent is not always drafted in the top 3, 4, 5, lottery, or even first round.
                              Toronto's assets aren't going to bring back lottery picks - good heaven's no. But other teams with really bad assets might give up desirable assets to rid their problem. Detroit sending Gordon to Charlotte for Maggette and a 1st round pick comes immediately to mind.

                              Also, the accumulation of assets - desirable assets - might also lead to a situation where Toronto can land a top talent. Houston's acquisition of Harden comes immediately to mind.

                              At this point in time in the Raptors history, I can think of no better plan especially considering they already have young talent on board with DeRozan, Ross, JV, and ED (although Davis is a career backup big, imo, but a good one).
                              Your bolded statement is what scares me about taking the approach of blowing it all up and starting a completely new 3-5 year rebuild from scratch, by taking on bad contracts to accumulate assets (ie: picks and youngsters). Regardless who the GM is, even if a solid pick is made (based on consensus at time of pick), there is absolutely no guarantee that the team will be any better in 3-5 years than it is now (or projected to be in 1-3 years from now with the current core).

                              I argued this all of last year and have reiterated it in a few posts recently, that the only problem with BC's post-Bosh rebuild is that he rushed it. DeRozan, Davis and Valanciunas were all pretty decent picks for where they were picked. The problem is that after drafting Valanciunas, BC rushed from rebuilding into building. Valanciunas was going to stay in Europe for at least one season, a new head coach was hired and it was a lockout-shortened season with no training camp... it was a perfect storm to go into full-tank mode: trade away high priced, veteran, expiring and non-core players for assets (picks and youngsters), while aiming for a top-5 (at least) pick in a loaded draft.

                              After adding a top-5 pick from the past draft (instead of Ross) and stockpiling other picks and young assets, who knows what subsequent moves BC could have made (ie: Harden??) this past offseason (as opposed to going all-in on a geriatric Nash and the overpaying for Fields in an at least semi-related move). This season should have been the first 'building' season, with playoffs not becoming a realistic goal until next season at the very earliest, which would have gone a long way towards tempering fan expectations.

                              I do 100% agree that this team's biggest problem is a lack of talent. IMO, this team only has 1 legitimate starter on the roster, and he's an increasingly selfish shoot-first PG who's overrated defensively (Lowry). Valanciunas will no doubt become a legit starter, but he's at least 2 seasons away from becoming that. Bargnani & DeRozan are this team's 2 'go to' players (offensively), but both of them have such inefficient one-dimensional games that they are best suited for backup roles on a legit contending team. Davis/Amir, Fields (if he returns to form after returning to injury) and Ross (2 seasons away) are all solid bench players as well. The rest of this roster (Gray, Acy, Kleiza, Pietrus, Anderson, Calderon, Lucas) are not in the future plans for this team, for various/multiple reasons.

                              I don't think a blow-it-up full blown rebuild is necessarily required, nor would I be opposed to it (in which case Valanciunas is the only player on the roster I'd worry about keeping). Whether it's a re-tooling type of rebuild or a complete rebuild, I just want it to be properly done without being rushed, with the long-term future in mind and with a goal/model for success to be sustainable.


                              ---

                              On a related note, one thing that irks me is that I was in a very small minority last year when I was openly promoting tanking, for the reasons outlined above. This minority of RR posters was chastised for not believing in our great young players and for underestimating the intangible benefit that useless wins provides to team chemistry and building a winning culture. Yet here we are this season, having won all those useless games last season and having stuck with the same primary core, and suddenly an overwhelming majority of RR posters is voting to "Blow it up"... what happened to developing a winning culture and sticking with our young core through the learning experience in the name of team chemistry??? Sometimes there's a method to the madness of the tank commanders...
                              Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Dec 11, 2012, 01:54 PM.

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                              • #75
                                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                Your bolded statement is what scares me about taking the approach of blowing it all up and starting a completely new 3-5 year rebuild from scratch, by taking on bad contracts to accumulate assets (ie: picks and youngsters). Regardless who the GM is, even if a solid pick is made (based on consensus at time of pick), there is absolutely no guarantee that the team will be any better in 3-5 years than it is now (or projected to be in 1-3 years from now with the current core).

                                I argued this all of last year and have reiterated it in a few posts recently, that the only problem with BC's post-Bosh rebuild is that he rushed it. DeRozan, Davis and Valanciunas were all pretty decent picks for where they were picked. The problem is that after drafting Valanciunas, BC rushed from rebuilding into building. Valanciunas was going to stay in Europe for at least one season, a new head coach was hired and it was a lockout-shortened season with no training camp... it was a perfect storm to go into full-tank mode: trade away high priced, veteran, expiring and non-core players for assets (picks and youngsters), while aiming for a top-5 (at least) pick in a loaded draft.

                                After adding a top-5 pick from the past draft (instead of Ross) and stockpiling other picks and young assets, who knows what subsequent moves BC could have made (ie: Harden??) this past offseason (as opposed to going all-in on a geriatric Nash and the overpaying for Fields in an at least semi-related move). This season should have been the first 'building' season, with playoffs not becoming a realistic goal until next season at the very earliest, which would have gone a long way towards tempering fan expectations.

                                I do 100% agree that this team's biggest problem is a lack of talent. IMO, this team only has 1 legitimate starter on the roster, and he's an increasingly selfish shoot-first PG who's overrated defensively (Lowry). Valanciunas will no doubt become a legit starter, but he's at least 2 seasons away from becoming that. Bargnani & DeRozan are this team's 2 'go to' players (offensively), but both of them have such inefficient one-dimensional games that they are best suited for backup roles on a legit contending team. Davis/Amir, Fields (if he returns to form after returning to injury) and Ross (2 seasons away) are all solid bench players as well. The rest of this roster (Gray, Acy, Kleiza, Pietrus, Anderson, Calderon, Lucas) are not in the future plans for this team, for various/multiple reasons.

                                I don't think a blow-it-up full blown rebuild is necessarily required, nor would I be opposed to it (in which case Valanciunas is the only player on the roster I'd worry about keeping). Whether it's a re-tooling type of rebuild or a complete rebuild, I just want it to be properly done without being rushed, with the long-term future in mind and with a goal/model for success to be sustainable.


                                ---

                                On a related note, one thing that irks me is that how I was in a very small minority last year when I was openly promoting tanking, for the reasons outlined above. This minority of RR posters was chastised for not believing in our great young players and for underestimating the intangible benefit that useless wins provides to team chemistry and building a winning culture. Yet here we are this season, having won all those useless games last season and having stuck with the same primary core, and suddenly an overwhelming majority of RR posters is voting to "Blow it up"... what happened to developing a winning culture and sticking with our young core as learning experience in the name of team chemistry??? Sometimes there's a method to the madness of the tank commanders...

                                First bold section: more draft picks equals higher opportunity in the lottery and more chances to find the elusive 'talent'.

                                The middle section is coulda, shoulda, woulda. Past doesn't matter. We didn't get a top pick.

                                Second bold section: You were right. So were the others. I, like many, were wrong. The problem with last year is that none of those lessons learned have stuck. This is the 2nd worst team in the league who has lost in a variety of ways to a variety of different talent. The only constants are a horrible offense/defense and losing.

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