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  • #76
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    First bold section: more draft picks equals higher opportunity in the lottery and more chances to find the elusive 'talent'.

    The middle section is coulda, shoulda, woulda. Past doesn't matter. We didn't get a top pick.

    Second bold section: You were right. So were the others. I, like many, were wrong. The problem with last year is that none of those lessons learned have stuck. This is the 2nd worst team in the league who has lost in a variety of ways to a variety of different talent. The only constants are a horrible offense/defense and losing.
    Fair enough about the first bold part. I guess it all depends on the 'bad' contract the team is considering bringing in, both in terms of amount and length, as well as the quality of pick(s) being acquired.

    As for the second bold part, that's exactly why I talked about the past, so that we don't repeat the same mistakes (ie: rushing a true rebuilding process).

    As frustrated as I am getting with BC (and most posters have been far more frustrated for way longer than I), I wonder whether it was him or ownership that pushed for an accelerated transition from 'rebuilding' to 'building' and then from 'building' to 'targeting playoffs'? I'm certainly not defending BC, I'm honestly just wondering aloud. I worry that the better than expected record last year got fans, management and ownership all too excited, which caused the rebuild to be even further rushed.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:11 PM.

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    • #77
      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
      Fair enough about the first bold part. I guess it all depends on the 'bad' contract the team is considering bringing in, both in terms of amount and length, as well as the quality of pick(s) being acquired.

      As for the second bold part, that's exactly why I talked about the past, so that we don't repeat the same mistakes (ie: rushing a true rebuilding process).

      As frustrated as I am getting with BC (and most posters have been far more frustrated for way longer than I), I wonder whether it was him or ownership that pushed for an accelerated transition from 'rebuilding' to 'building' and then from 'building' to 'targeting playoffs'? I'm certainly not defending BC, I'm honestly just wondering aloud. I worry that the better than expected record last year got fans, management and ownership all too excited, which caused the rebuild to be even further rushed.
      I am 100% serious when I ask this: does it matter what 'bad' contract comes back? The Raps are awful. That is not opinion. That is 5 years of fact combined with a regression this season leading to the 2nd worst record in the league past the 1/4 mark of the season and a bad offensive team and an atrocious defensive team.

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      • #78
        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
        As frustrated as I am getting with BC (and most posters have been far more frustrated for way longer than I), I wonder whether it was him or ownership that pushed for an accelerated transition from 'rebuilding' to 'building' and then from 'building' to 'targeting playoffs'?
        The fact that he got a 2 yr. deal with a 3rd yr. team option clearly tells us that the owners gave him a certain amount of time to get the job done i.e. make the play-offs. Owners(MLSE) do not look at it from a basketball point of view and understandably so. They simply look at it from a business point of view. Not that BC is a bad basketball man but the fact is that he simply hasn't delivered. Unless something drastic happens his days are numbered and he knows it. In the limited time that he has, convincing ownership to take on long term contracts thereby accumulating draft picks, is a luxury he does not have. Among a few things that ownership may allow him to do could be firing the coach and maybe promote an assistant to be interim head coach.
        Attitude Is A Choice.

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        • #79
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          I am 100% serious when I ask this: does it matter what 'bad' contract comes back? The Raps are awful. That is not opinion. That is 5 years of fact combined with a regression this season leading to the 2nd worst record in the league past the 1/4 mark of the season and a bad offensive team and an atrocious defensive team.
          I would say that it does. Getting a bad contract with 1-2 years remaining wouldn't be bad and I could even live with 3 years remaining, if the pick(s) were high enough in their respective draft class(es). However, I wouldn't want to completely cripple the franchise's financial flexibility for the next 3-5 years, just to land a couple picks that may or may not pan out. Even if the Raps aren't likely to be major players in free agency, having no cap space for multiple seasons also severely limits their ability to make trades or even get in as minor players to help facilitate larger trades.

          I was all for the trade that Cleveland made with the Clippers 2 years ago, which saw them land a top-5 pick for taking on Baron Davis' contract. Even if they didn't amnesty him, I think he only had another year left on it anyway. Had he had 3+ seaons remaining (without amnesty option), suddenly that trade looks much less appealing.

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          • #80
            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
            I would say that it does. Getting a bad contract with 1-2 years remaining wouldn't be bad and I could even live with 3 years remaining, if the pick(s) were high enough in their respective draft class(es). However, I wouldn't want to completely cripple the franchise's financial flexibility for the next 3-5 years, just to land a couple picks that may or may not pan out. Even if the Raps aren't likely to be major players in free agency, having no cap space for multiple seasons also severely limits their ability to make trades or even get in as minor players to help facilitate larger trades.

            I was all for the trade that Cleveland made with the Clippers 2 years ago, which saw them land a top-5 pick for taking on Baron Davis' contract. Even if they didn't amnesty him, I think he only had another year left on it anyway. Had he had 3+ seaons remaining (without amnesty option), suddenly that trade looks much less appealing.
            I've been talking about deals with 3 years remaining - 2 after this season.

            As the current Raps are constructed, there is no flexibility anyways.

            The Raps are not going to land any All-Star or near All-STar talent with their current assets even combined with flexibility. They had financial flexibility for the last 2-3 seasons and it brought jack shit. I know this because I was talking about it non-stop and it became nothing.


            The Raptors are bad and show no signs of changing that trend. To maximize on that they should, in my opinion, acquire as many assets as possible that reward being bad. In 2-3 years time is the time to be flaunting financial flexibility to sign a star, veteran free agent or make a James Harden-style trade. Taking on a bunch of bad contracts that expire in the next 2-3 seasons would be a good way to start that off - while accumulating draft picks in the process.

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            • #81
              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              I would say that it does. Getting a bad contract with 1-2 years remaining wouldn't be bad and I could even live with 3 years remaining, if the pick(s) were high enough in their respective draft class(es). However, I wouldn't want to completely cripple the franchise's financial flexibility for the next 3-5 years, just to land a couple picks that may or may not pan out. Even if the Raps aren't likely to be major players in free agency, having no cap space for multiple seasons also severely limits their ability to make trades or even get in as minor players to help facilitate larger trades.

              I was all for the trade that Cleveland made with the Clippers 2 years ago, which saw them land a top-5 pick for taking on Baron Davis' contract. Even if they didn't amnesty him, I think he only had another year left on it anyway. Had he had 3+ seaons remaining (without amnesty option), suddenly that trade looks much less appealing.
              There aren't really that many bad contracts in the league right now. I'd say the guys who have more than 3 year contracts that might hurt a franchise are Johnson, Lopez, Gordon, Nene, Batum, McGee, Curry or Gallinari. I'd include Amare as well even though his contract is done in 3 years.

              Brooklyn won't have picks as assets so I don't see how they could shed Johnson or Lopez. Gordon/Curry/Nene are all injury prone and they are on my list simply because of that. And I doubt a team would give away their pick just to unload these contracts - but I could be wrong. Batum and Gallinari are playing poorly this season and I do see them improving but their contracts suck. And McGee is just awful.. although we have JV so I don't see us ever getting him anyway.

              After these guys, I say any other contract is fair game.

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              • #82
                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                IMO, "real" talent is evident from day-1. Guys like LeBron, Durant, Howard, Duncan, Shaq, Vince, etc. don't need 3+ years to learn how to dominate. Their immense skill is on display from the moment they start their NBA careers.

                That's the type of talent this team needs to get out of the cellar, and I can confidently say we don't have anyone that fits this description (including Jonas).
                Thank you. This is exactly what I was driving at back in the day when people were talking about guys like Bargnani, Bayless, Davis, Amir, etc and trying to argue that all they needed was some time on the floor. Either the evidence is there from day 1 (or in some of these cases, there before YEAR 5), or it is simply not there.
                your pal,
                ebrian

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                • #83
                  planetmars wrote: View Post
                  There aren't really that many bad contracts in the league right now. I'd say the guys who have more than 3 year contracts that might hurt a franchise are Johnson, Lopez, Gordon, Nene, Batum, McGee, Curry or Gallinari. I'd include Amare as well even though his contract is done in 3 years.

                  Brooklyn won't have picks as assets so I don't see how they could shed Johnson or Lopez. Gordon/Curry/Nene are all injury prone and they are on my list simply because of that. And I doubt a team would give away their pick just to unload these contracts - but I could be wrong. Batum and Gallinari are playing poorly this season and I do see them improving but their contracts suck. And McGee is just awful.. although we have JV so I don't see us ever getting him anyway.

                  After these guys, I say any other contract is fair game.
                  Okafor - 2 years.
                  Ariza - 2 years.
                  Boozer - 3 years (they have CHarlotte pick).
                  Thomas - 3 years (they have DET and POR picks).
                  Biedrins - 2 years (GSW have no pick to trade due to restrictions though).
                  Jefferson - 2 years (see Biedrins)
                  Charlie V - 2 years (same as GSW issues on pick)
                  Gooden - 3 years
                  Beasley - 3 years
                  Frye - 3 years
                  Salmons - 3 years (but they have pick gone out with restrictions)
                  Hayes - 3 years (restrictions)
                  Marvin Williams - 2 years


                  Those are the stinkiest of the stinky, in my opinion. Did I miss anyone?

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                  • #84
                    KHD wrote: View Post
                    Guys like this are like lottery tickets though. For each of them, there are many incredible players who do take a bit more development time. These late bloomers won't necessarily be superstars, but they can become all-star level talent, and that's a more realistic thing to focus on.

                    Still don't think they should keep the current team together though. I'm advocating going all out for 2014 draft acquisitions. I'd move anyone on this team besides JV. If we have to take on some bad contracts to get 1st round 2014 picks in the lottery range, we should do it. Those bad contracts will disappear before the prospects we could draft in 2014 do.
                    The problem with this mentality is the amount of money and time consumed to find out if they are the real deal or fakers. Waiting and waiting for late bloomers is a waste of the fan's time and the team's money. Developing and paying players that "can" (but not necessarily will) become all-star level talent is a waste of time. Look at Amir Johnson's ridiculous contract. Dude is in his 7th year in the league and will never be anything more than a backup PF in the NBA. He'll be making between 6.5-7.5m over the next 3 seasons. Why? Because earlier in his career he showed some 'flashes' of being the next Ben Wallace. Flashes = franchise death-trap. Andrea has shown flashes. Heck even Araujo showed some flashes. If they're not performing at a pretty high level after their first season, they will never perform at a high level. Ever.
                    your pal,
                    ebrian

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                    • #85
                      TRex wrote: View Post
                      THe only way the Raps can get an all-star calibre type of talent in my opinion is through draft. Not sure i'm willing to watch 2 straight seasons of tanking though just to have a chance to draft Wiggins. And even if we let's say finish with the worst record in 2014, there is NO guarantee that we're going to get the 1st overall pick.

                      The Raps only hope right now is for JV to develop faster and DeRozan to continue to improve his game. Because after those 2, there's not much talent here.
                      What Matt's proposing gives us a higher chance of landing that 1st pick, because we'll be acquiring as many draft picks as we can from this time until then. With the right number of moves and horrible contracts taking in, we could trade our way up to a top pick. For example, let's say the lottery rolls in and we've got the 3rd overall pick. But "back in 2012", we traded for some horribly long and expensive contract for a couple picks that ended up being the 8th and 10th picks. Now we have 3rd, 8th, and 10th picks that might be something you can trade for that #1 pick. Or if we don't get Wiggins, it still means we're bringing in 3 fairly strong prospects.
                      your pal,
                      ebrian

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                      • #86
                        Isaiah Thomas

                        When I saw the name of this thread I was ready to disagree, mainly because its hard to blow up what you don't have. Blowing up generally is a strategy of mediocre teams who want to start fresh. We don't really have any veteran talent of trade-able quality that would enable us to blow it up (blow, maybe).

                        In my opinion there are only three players on this roster that could command a lottery pick in a trade (which says a lot about Colangelo's legacy here). They are Lowry, Demar and Valanciunas. Of the three, two are already quite young and suited to a rebuild. As for Lowry, I think trading him could make sense before his current deal runs out and he wants big raise (and before he kills one of his teammates for playing soft).

                        So other than trading Lowry, it looks as though we would be bringing back late first round picks. This team has shown a startling inability throughout its history to get quality out of the lottery, and I can't recall a non-lottery first rounder besides Mo-Pete that ever had any appreciable impact. So lets be clear. It is absolutely imperative that we bring in an excellent scouting, talent evaluating GM before we commence this rebuild. I know this sounds crazy, but a guy like Isaiah Thomas might be the answer (and would clearly be available). Say what you want about the guy. He has a history of drafting legit talent.

                        Also, I really do like your point about taking on bad contracts for picks. Its not as though we could really be any worse. In fact, the worst contracts in the league would probably amount to a talent upgrade at this point (though this would be bad for our draft position). With that in mind, I think the real ticket is players on massive contracts who are perpetually injured. How about Nene? Would Washington give up a first rounder to get out of his albatross of a deal given the plethora of young talent already on their roster? Here's hoping.

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                        • #87
                          psrs1 wrote: View Post
                          Things make look brighter if AB and JC are gone. These two need to be moved now.
                          In truth we should have seen this coming from the very start. JC should have been traded immediately after acquiring Lowry. We traded away a first round pick for the guy, and we kept a $10m backup point guard? Why? It made absolutely no sense then and it makes no sense right now that he's still here. I don't care that Lowry missed some time. You traded away the 2013 draft pick making the obvious assumption that you assumed this team was good enough to make the playoffs and thus render that draft pick moot, but you held on to a perfectly good trade asset.. for what? A rainy day? And now, we're 4-17 and Jose is still mysteriously on the roster. Makes absolutely no sense at all.
                          your pal,
                          ebrian

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                          • #88
                            *Isiah
                            Yes I googled it and got the wrong one...

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                            • #89
                              Nilanka wrote:
                              IMO, "real" talent is evident from day-1. Guys like LeBron, Durant, Howard, Duncan, Shaq, Vince, etc. don't need 3+ years to learn how to dominate. Their immense skill is on display from the moment they start their NBA careers.
                              ebrian wrote: View Post
                              Either the evidence is there from day 1 (or in some of these cases, there before YEAR 5), or it is simply not there.
                              This theory is flawed in my opinion.

                              The problem with saying this, is that there are only so many players like that to go around.
                              And EVERY team in the league is trying to land one of these types of players.
                              But as Nilanka stated, they can all be counted on one hand.

                              Unless we're talking about players like Rudy Gay and Lamarcus Aldridge and Rajon Rondo... except .. Bargnani must have exhibited more of the 'Day-1 Evidence' in order to Garner 2nd in ROY voting over ALL of them.

                              Or Tyreke Evans must have simply forgotten how to play, and thus his "Extreme amount of Day-1 Evidence" is easily thrown out the window.

                              I don't believe for a second that a Player's future Career can be predicted by "Day-1".
                              Some guys you can tell will be Hall-of-Famers from Day-1, yes, I'll give you that.
                              But not all Hall-of-Famers were pegged to be so from "Day-1".

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                              • #90
                                pcrombeen wrote: View Post
                                *Isiah
                                Yes I googled it and got the wrong one...
                                I'd much rather have Isaiah, he's being wasted on the Kings; they probably got the most confused management and coaching in the the league. He's not an answer to anything though.

                                I'm of the opinion that player development counts at least as much as getting it right in the draft; we've failed terribly at development.

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