View Poll Results: What do you think?

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  • Take other teams sh!t for prospects & picks

    29 69.05%
  • Keep doing what we are doing. We already have talent!

    5 11.90%
  • Other (please tell in comments)

    8 19.05%
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Thread: Blow it up..... seriously

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    Guys like this are like lottery tickets though. For each of them, there are many incredible players who do take a bit more development time. These late bloomers won't necessarily be superstars, but they can become all-star level talent, and that's a more realistic thing to focus on.

    Still don't think they should keep the current team together though. I'm advocating going all out for 2014 draft acquisitions. I'd move anyone on this team besides JV. If we have to take on some bad contracts to get 1st round 2014 picks in the lottery range, we should do it. Those bad contracts will disappear before the prospects we could draft in 2014 do.
    I hesitantly agree, depending on your definition of "all out". This whole blowing it up idea is worrisome. Less so now with the clarification of the definition of "blow it up". I'm not ready to make a move now for a draft pick 2 seasons away. That could end up biting us in the butt.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Hahahaha I never said that!!
    I guess in the end, ultimately, we all want the same thing: A team we can be proud of.
    How we get there doesn't really matter. As long as we do.
    Well, I am a whiney little bitch of late.

    Not much a fan can do.

    Oh to own the Raptors. Hey. Is that the ultimate life goal I've been seeking now that I have a wonderful family?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    I hesitantly agree, depending on your definition of "all out". This whole blowing it up idea is worrisome. Less so now with the clarification of the definition of "blow it up". I'm not ready to make a move now for a draft pick 2 seasons away. That could end up biting us in the butt.

    I would be worried putting all your coin on one bet too - the bet in this case is one draft pick. I would be looking for multiple first round draft picks over the next 2-3 drafts ('13, '14, '15).

    Would Chicago give up Charlotte's pick to take on Boozer?

    Would Charlotte give up Detroit and/or Portland to shed Thomas or receive another asset?

    Would Minnesota give up picks in any (please pray God) deal with LA for Bargnani?

    Would Washington give up a, just thinking out loud, 1st round pick top 3 protected in 2013 and unprotected in 2014 to shed Okafor (gives them $15M in cap space this summer with an already young roster)? Okafor is really bad now given his contract.

    What about Milwaukee? They are dying to move Gooden.

    Phoenix has some undesirable contracts (although I would not touch Beasley).


    Obviously you can't do it all but there are opportunities there, I would think, to take on some undesirable contracts now for young talent later (draft picks). I mean, what is the worse thing that happens? The Raptors slip to last place? lol (a very cynical lol).
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Well, I am a whiney little bitch of late.
    This is the worst I have seen you react, and it is not without reason. There were a select few of us on this site that watched almost every game last season. I think the fact that we had our draft pick made it, a little easier to watch.

    This year, what are we hoping for? Chances of us getting a top three pick are slim. The future of this team looks bleak. I agree, this team should be remodelled. The assets to keep are DeMar, Ross, JV, Ed and Lowry. The only untouchable player is JV. It's time to build a team that represents the coach, and the country, because after all, our fan base loves hard nosed, hard working and gritty players.

    Acquiring assets (draft picks, and young talent) is the way to approach it. We have the pieces that can be traded for bloated contracts, which would yield young prospects and/or draft picks.

    This current roster is flawed and it doesn't take a genius to see that. I don't think we are that far off from having a team that can compete.

    JV
    ????
    ????
    DeMar
    Lowry

    Bench

    Ed
    Ross

    Those are decent building blocks for the future

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote saints91 wrote: View Post
    This is the worst I have seen you react, and it is not without reason. There were a select few of us on this site that watched almost every game last season. I think the fact that we had our draft pick made it, a little easier to watch.

    This year, what are we hoping for? Chances of us getting a top three pick are slim. The future of this team looks bleak. I agree, this team should be remodelled. The assets to keep are DeMar, Ross, JV, Ed and Lowry. The only untouchable player is JV. It's time to build a team that represents the coach, and the country, because after all, our fan base loves hard nosed, hard working and gritty players.

    Acquiring assets (draft picks, and young talent) is the way to approach it. We have the pieces that can be traded for bloated contracts, which would yield young prospects and/or draft picks.

    This current roster is flawed and it doesn't take a genius to see that. I don't think we are that far off from having a team that can compete.

    JV
    ????
    ????
    DeMar
    Lowry

    Bench

    Ed
    Ross

    Those are decent building blocks for the future
    I am Matt52 and one of the founding members of the #tradeBargnani movement and I support this bold statement.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote saints91 wrote: View Post
    This is the worst I have seen you react, and it is not without reason. There were a select few of us on this site that watched almost every game last season. I think the fact that we had our draft pick made it, a little easier to watch.

    This year, what are we hoping for? Chances of us getting a top three pick are slim. The future of this team looks bleak. I agree, this team should be remodelled. The assets to keep are DeMar, Ross, JV, Ed and Lowry. The only untouchable player is JV. It's time to build a team that represents the coach, and the country, because after all, our fan base loves hard nosed, hard working and gritty players.

    Acquiring assets (draft picks, and young talent) is the way to approach it. We have the pieces that can be traded for bloated contracts, which would yield young prospects and/or draft picks.

    This current roster is flawed and it doesn't take a genius to see that. I don't think we are that far off from having a team that can compete.

    JV
    ????
    ????
    DeMar
    Lowry

    Bench

    Ed
    Ross

    Those are decent building blocks for the future
    I'm almost reconsidering putting DeMar on my building block list. He has been very mediocre this season. He has improved his rebounding, but he still has no 3pt shot and never passes. He has a PER of 15.1 which is just average but his defense is still below average. The only reason DeMar seems to get a pass is because Andrea is doing so much worse.

    I wouldn't worry so much about DeMar but he already has his next contract and it's terrible. The only thing that I'm waiting for his how he does next year. Most SG's make a leap when they turn 24. Jordan, Kobe, McGrady, Vince, Penny, Wade made a statistical jump from age 23 to age 24. However saying that, all of those guys had pretty good stats at age 23 unlike DeMar.

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I have found Brotherston's chat at HoopsWorld.com this week to be everything I disagree with - but such is life. He feels Bargnani has value and a lot of Colangelo regurgitation.

    This was a good comment though:



    scrap metal

    Would it be better for tor. To just play jv and the young guns Nd trade the vets while they still have value? I mean its frustrating seing them losing so why not just go and aim for q good draft and trade for picks too? Develop jv now! More minutes!!!

    Stephen Brotherston

    Raps are getting to a crossroads – they have to decide – develop guys – in which case trade some vets for picks & youth. OR try & salvage the season and add some vets = less playing time for their own young guys. Just make a decision already.

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-chat-w...erston-121012/
    Anyone else hoping the underlined DOES NOT happen?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  8. #48
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I'm with Hugmenot on this one.
    **Hugs, did you mean to put "Not the answer" at the end there?
    Yes; that will teach me to write posts while attending boring Go Live/No Go meetings. The decision was already made but like most large corporations, we like to make sure everyone agrees so that no one is accountable for the decision.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Here is the problem I have with the premise, "We have enough talent."

    A big part of this team that was sold to Raptors fans (well, at least those who bought it.... ahem, like me) was Bargnani was a special talent and a matchup nightmare who could and would produce All-Star like numbers. Last season, he did show that ability. All the optimism from last season in to this summer was based on 'that' Bargnani returning. Well 'tha't Bargnani did not come back and we are, incredibly, left with a version of Bargnani that is worse than his previous self. The Raptors have been built from the ground up around a player who is a shell of his abilities. So, blow it up!

    Here is another problem I have with the premise, "We have enough talent."

    If the players we have are 'good enough' then why are we constantly hearing the familiar refrain, "If only more than insert player X name here showed up tonight." Lets get something straight. Everyone in the NBA is talented. They would not get to the best league in the world without talent. The majority of the NBA if given minutes, opportunities, and matchup could put up near 20 points on any given night (there is no statistical evidence to this claim but bear with me). The difference between a talented player and a really good starter/borderline All-Star to All-Star talent is consistency. The really good players bring it almost every single game. They might have a bad game once in a while (say every 10 games) but they still contribute in more way than one. The Raptors lack consistency therefore they lack true talent, in my opinion. So, blow it up!

    Here is yet another problem I have with the premise, "We have enough talent."

    Talent begets talent. What is the Raptors talent going to return via a trade? Are they going to get better? Well, they might if they get Gasol who is actually a great talent. But if they do get Gasol, that means they are on a short window to do anything. And that 'anything' is likely, at this point in the season, an 8th seed at best. After next season, where are they at that point in time? Unless they can trade Gasol (who will be 33) for a young all-star talent, what do they have to show? So, blow it up!

    And finally, another problem I have with the premise, "We have enough talent."

    We really don't. Look at the roster. JV might be a top 10 centre in a few seasons. I think DD might make another jump next season based on the improvements this year (defense is now the biggest culprit) and he might be a fringe top 10 SG. Still no SF. ED will be average at PF at best (I am purposely leaving Bargnani out). Lowry is a fringe top 10 PG. The great depth rose coloured glasses fans (that be me) had for the bench is non-existent. We have maybe 1 top 10 talent right now, possibly 1 in the near future (next year), and possibly another in the distant future (2 years). That is it. Where is the talent that people are so willing to roll with? By blowing it up now and accepting the next 2 years is all about draft, draft, draft the Raptors young talent now (JV, TR, ED, DD) will be entering or near the prime of their careers while the (hopefully) better talent via the next 2 drafts are maturing. In taking on horrible contracts now to get those draft picks, they will also be expiring leaving Toronto with the opportunity to trade for established veteran talent (think AI to Denver) or sign a significant free agent. So blow it up already!




    Just to refresh, what do I mean by blow it up?


    1. fire management
    2. trade current veterans (Bargnani, Calderon, Kleiza, Amir) for worse contracts, like the worse of the worst in the league, for draft picks
    3. realize the current building process of the team is a giant FAIL and its ceiling is mediocrity if all goes according to plan.... for the love of sweet baby jesus the Raptors are the 2nd worst team in the league 21 games in!
    4. play the youth (DD, ED, TR, JV)
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #50
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What like:

    going 4-17?

    having no all-star talent?

    calling a close game a good game?

    ending up with a roster of overpaid role players?

    watching the continued excuse of, well, they played well for 3 quarters but that one quarter really did them in?


    I probably should have clarified that blowing it up meant sending out veteran players who have contributed to nothing but losing in Toronto: Bargnani, Calderon, Amir, and Kleiza.

    I would very much keep JV, DD, TR, and ED unless their inclusion in a deal brought back more desirable assets. Everyone else is expendable.

    Actually, no, I don't hope to get back these types of players with the picks. The goal would be to get much better players because, yet again, that is the problem.
    Things make look brighter if AB and JC are gone. These two need to be moved now.

  11. #51
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    The problem with 'blowing it up' is the possibility of failing again in the end. It is a very risky proposition. Ideally 'blowing it up' is the answer but I'm afraid Raps are not in an 'ideal situation'. I really think that a small thing like making a coaching change can make a difference for the better.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    The problem with 'blowing it up' is the possibility of failing again in the end. It is a very risky proposition. Ideally 'blowing it up' is the answer but I'm afraid Raps are not in an 'ideal situation'. I really think that a small thing like making a coaching change can make a difference for the better.
    The Raps can't get any worse, can they?

    They just lost a game by nearly 20 and the opposing team went 0/20 on 3's.

    Blowing it up means ridding current veterans, playing youth, and taking on horrible contracts that last no longer than 2 seasons after current for picks.

    Given the shortage of talent and the low ceiling this team has, I am more and more in favour with every passing game.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  13. #53
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    The other issue with blowing it up and playing the youth is that this tank (let's call it what it is), may backfire and just give OKC another #4 pick (or is it just 1,2 that are protected?). How painful would that be......

    I promised I wouldn't watch and then have watched the last two. Those bastards have me hooked somehow, but it's starting to hurt my quality of life.....

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote coastal wrote: View Post
    The other issue with blowing it up and playing the youth is that this tank (let's call it what it is), may backfire and just give OKC another #4 pick (or is it just 1,2 that are protected?). How painful would that be......

    I promised I wouldn't watch and then have watched the last two. Those bastards have me hooked somehow, but it's starting to hurt my quality of life.....
    How exactly can the Raptors get worse than 2nd last in the league with a 4-18 record?

    OKC is likely to get #4 keeping things the way they are.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  15. #55
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote coastal wrote: View Post
    The other issue with blowing it up and playing the youth is that this tank (let's call it what it is), may backfire and just give OKC another #4 pick (or is it just 1,2 that are protected?). How painful would that be......

    I promised I wouldn't watch and then have watched the last two. Those bastards have me hooked somehow, but it's starting to hurt my quality of life.....
    Whether it's the 4th pick, or the 15th pick, I'm fine with giving OKC the pick.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  16. #56
    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Matt's premise of blowing it up largely revolves around trading Bargnani, Jose, Kleiza, and Amir (those are the names he has specified). The other involves getting rid of (by omiting them from your core to build around) Fields, Anderson, Gray, Lucas, Acy, and Pietrus.

    Is any of that really a stretch for this team? Aren't most of those moves what Raptors fans have been calling for already?

    Trading Bargnani has been topic #1 for the last couple of weeks. Trading Jose has been part of the plan all along. Kleiza is only getting minutes in certain games, and is obviously not a long-term solution. Amir's name has been thrown around the amnesty talk for a long time now. People have been calling for Fields' head since the day his deal was signed. Has anyone ever considered Anderson, Gray, Lucas or Acy a part of this team beyond their current contract? Pietrus is new in a very old way. People were against the signing and nobody is fooling themselves into thinking he is an answer, let alone the answer.

    So how is it that people are disagreeing with the concept of trading away everyone not named Lowry, Derozan, Valanciunas, Ross and Davis? I wouldn't even consider that a blow-up model, that is natural team management (which is what we have been sorely missing).

    So let's talk about really blowing it up.

    Trade our best chip not named JV - Kyle Lowry

    Lowry is our best player and has the most cap friendly deal of anyone on this team. He is our best bet to trade for a young, yet non-rookie player who can actually play. Enter Utah. We have long dreamed about getting Milsap from Utah, with their impending big dilema and lack of back-court the time is right to peddle Lowry for….Derrick Favors. Utah needs a back-court player today and for the future and they still have the young Enes Kanter to pair with Milsap and Al Jefferson. We'd have to take back another $1M in contract, and would likely target a guard, so the likely player is veteran Jamaal Tinsley, who's in the final year of his deal. Tinsley and Jose, both on expiring deals, we could (and have) do worse at the point. Favors is a beast and would give us a young, physical front court to build around.

    I'm all for blowing it up if we get ourselves into a better position for the future. But trading Barg's, Jose, LK and Amir isn't blowing it up, it's managing a basketball franchise.
    F*ck Brooklyn

  17. #57
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Whether it's the 4th pick, or the 15th pick, I'm fine with giving OKC the pick.
    +1

    I'd rather have OKC get the 2013 pick than the 2014 pick and it doesn't matter if its #4 or #14. I'm just hoping we don't win the lottery this year as then the entire 2014 pick is ours again.

  18. #58
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Matt's premise of blowing it up largely revolves around trading Bargnani, Jose, Kleiza, and Amir (those are the names he has specified). The other involves getting rid of (by omiting them from your core to build around) Fields, Anderson, Gray, Lucas, Acy, and Pietrus.

    Is any of that really a stretch for this team? Aren't most of those moves what Raptors fans have been calling for already?

    Trading Bargnani has been topic #1 for the last couple of weeks. Trading Jose has been part of the plan all along. Kleiza is only getting minutes in certain games, and is obviously not a long-term solution. Amir's name has been thrown around the amnesty talk for a long time now. People have been calling for Fields' head since the day his deal was signed. Has anyone ever considered Anderson, Gray, Lucas or Acy a part of this team beyond their current contract? Pietrus is new in a very old way. People were against the signing and nobody is fooling themselves into thinking he is an answer, let alone the answer.

    So how is it that people are disagreeing with the concept of trading away everyone not named Lowry, Derozan, Valanciunas, Ross and Davis? I wouldn't even consider that a blow-up model, that is natural team management (which is what we have been sorely missing).

    So let's talk about really blowing it up.

    Trade our best chip not named JV - Kyle Lowry

    Lowry is our best player and has the most cap friendly deal of anyone on this team. He is our best bet to trade for a young, yet non-rookie player who can actually play. Enter Utah. We have long dreamed about getting Milsap from Utah, with their impending big dilema and lack of back-court the time is right to peddle Lowry for….Derrick Favors. Utah needs a back-court player today and for the future and they still have the young Enes Kanter to pair with Milsap and Al Jefferson. We'd have to take back another $1M in contract, and would likely target a guard, so the likely player is veteran Jamaal Tinsley, who's in the final year of his deal. Tinsley and Jose, both on expiring deals, we could (and have) do worse at the point. Favors is a beast and would give us a young, physical front court to build around.

    I'm all for blowing it up if we get ourselves into a better position for the future. But trading Barg's, Jose, LK and Amir isn't blowing it up, it's managing a basketball franchise.
    That is a good break down.

    I don't agree with just adding Millsap and trading Lowry unless draft picks are coming back. Millsap is a good player but he is also unrestricted this summer. He also would become the best player on this team and not a cornerstone worth building around.

    The break down also does not factor in to acquiring numerous draft picks from other teams. The Raps players on their own are not returning draft picks so they need to take back bad contracts.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #59
    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That is a good break down.

    I don't agree with just adding Millsap and trading Lowry unless draft picks are coming back. Millsap is a good player but he is also unrestricted this summer. He also would become the best player on this team and not a cornerstone worth building around.

    The break down also does not factor in to acquiring numerous draft picks from other teams. The Raps players on their own are not returning draft picks so they need to take back bad contracts.
    You're busted Matt, you just skimmed my posting. I didn't suggest trading for Milsap, I suggested going after the younger Derrick Favors.

    Agreed that for every bad deal we take on, we need to get either a first rounder and/or a young propect. At this stage of the game, I'd probably take Tyrus Thomas for Bargnani 1-for-1 if that was the best deal on the table.
    F*ck Brooklyn

  20. #60
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Recent success with this theory:

    Irving to CLE was through Baron Davis trade and Clipper's pick.
    Lillard to POR was through Wallace to NJ/Brooklyn.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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