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  • #91
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    In my opinion the Raptors are already going to be a horrible team for the forseeable future because they have the same management making decisions that has lead to a 5 year playoff drought and are currently in 2nd last place in the entire league with a bottom 10 offense and a bottom 5 defense.
    Matt, I've been watching your gradual change in tone over the past few weeks but this does it for me. Welcome to my world.
    your pal,
    ebrian

    Comment


    • #92
      Matt52 wrote: View Post
      Second bold section: You were right. So were the others. I, like many, were wrong. The problem with last year is that none of those lessons learned have stuck. This is the 2nd worst team in the league who has lost in a variety of ways to a variety of different talent. The only constants are a horrible offense/defense and losing.
      I'm not really to concede that tank-mode was correct. I don't know what tank-mode really is. Can someone explain this to me? In theory I understand you want to lose all your games, but in practice is it even possible? While avoiding fines from the league, what exactly has to take place to "tank" in the NBA? The only thing I can think of right now is not signing guys like Alan Anderson and Ben Uzoh. Take those two off the team and we probably get Harrison Barnes. But aside from that -- what is tanking, really?
      your pal,
      ebrian

      Comment


      • #93
        joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
        This theory is flawed in my opinion.

        The problem with saying this, is that there are only so many players like that to go around.
        And EVERY team in the league is trying to land one of these types of players.
        But as Nilanka stated, they can all be counted on one hand.


        Unless we're talking about players like Rudy Gay and Lamarcus Aldridge and Rajon Rondo... except .. Bargnani must have exhibited more of the 'Day-1 Evidence' in order to Garner 2nd in ROY voting over ALL of them.

        Or Tyreke Evans must have simply forgotten how to play, and thus his "Extreme amount of Day-1 Evidence" is easily thrown out the window.

        I don't believe for a second that a Player's future Career can be predicted by "Day-1".
        Some guys you can tell will be Hall-of-Famers from Day-1, yes, I'll give you that.
        But not all Hall-of-Famers were pegged to be so from "Day-1".

        You are absolutely correct.

        The issue is you are talking franchise talent. I'm looking for a legit All-Star - hell maybe 2! The more picks they get the more opportunity to be that team that does land the franchise talent - or at the very least the all-stars.

        Toronto has been doing the opposite of this and look at where it has landed them. As I've been saying lately, how much worse can the Raptors actually get? The ball they are playing is not winning or enjoyable. At least last year was enjoyable. They are currently 2nd last. Bad offense. Offensive defense.

        The good thing Toronto has going for it is there are already young players on the roster who are going to be solid pros - maybe more.


        What is going to take to Toronto to relevancy faster:

        1) muddling through the current situation for the next 2-3 years and HOPING everything works out (i think this is extremely unlikely, surprise!) when the last 5 seasons say it is going to be an epic failure? or

        2) developing and playing current young players while adding possibly 4-5 high drafted players in the next 2-3 drafts to coincide with the expiration of some horrible contracts?


        #1 is insanity - doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Colangelo keeps sending picks away versus getting picks back. The majority of successful GM's of late (the descendents of SA) are stock piling picks. Needless to say, sign me up for #2. I'd take the uncertainty of greatness over the certainty of a continuation of the last 5 years.


        Don't forget first things first: get rid of Bargnani and Colangelo.

        Comment


        • #94
          ebrian wrote: View Post
          Matt, I've been watching your gradual change in tone over the past few weeks but this does it for me. Welcome to my world.
          lol - thanks. Where is a good place to grab a bite?

          The truth hurts though.

          Comment


          • #95
            joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
            I don't believe for a second that a Player's future Career can be predicted by "Day-1".
            Some guys you can tell will be Hall-of-Famers from Day-1, yes, I'll give you that.
            But not all Hall-of-Famers were pegged to be so from "Day-1".
            Okay, I concede on the "day 1" point. Season 1 is more fitting.
            your pal,
            ebrian

            Comment


            • #96
              ebrian wrote: View Post
              I'm not really to concede that tank-mode was correct. I don't know what tank-mode really is. Can someone explain this to me? In theory I understand you want to lose all your games, but in practice is it even possible? While avoiding fines from the league, what exactly has to take place to "tank" in the NBA? The only thing I can think of right now is not signing guys like Alan Anderson and Ben Uzoh. Take those two off the team and we probably get Harrison Barnes. But aside from that -- what is tanking, really?
              When I was pushing for 'tanking' last year, I described it as this:

              - significant playing time to young players that are (or could become) part of the long-term core (ie: Uzoh yes, Anderson no)
              - minimal/no playing time to guys who aren't going to be on the team the following season
              - trade every expiring contract / old player / overpaid player / players not projected to be part of the core for draft picks, young players (and expiring contracts if need be) - I would have tried to trade Calderon, Amir and Kleiza last year, as well as guys like Gray, Anderson, etc... something in return is better than nothing in return
              - no big signings that are short-sighted (ie: Fields this past offseason)
              - coaching staff and players give 100% effort, but within the confines of 'playing for the future' approach (per above)

              I never wanted the team to purposefully lose or sit healthy players just to try and lose. My argument is that when teams are out of playoff contention, the approach should always change to development/evaluation of young players. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially when your #5 pick from the previous draft is overseas until the following season, you're had significant roster turnover and have a new coach that didn't have a full offseason/training camp to prepare for the season.

              Comment


              • #97
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                Okafor - 2 years.
                Ariza - 2 years.
                Boozer - 3 years (they have CHarlotte pick).
                Thomas - 3 years (they have DET and POR picks).
                Biedrins - 2 years (GSW have no pick to trade due to restrictions though).
                Jefferson - 2 years (see Biedrins)
                Charlie V - 2 years (same as GSW issues on pick)
                Gooden - 3 years
                Beasley - 3 years
                Frye - 3 years
                Salmons - 3 years (but they have pick gone out with restrictions)
                Hayes - 3 years (restrictions)
                Marvin Williams - 2 years


                Those are the stinkiest of the stinky, in my opinion. Did I miss anyone?
                I would add Harrington (3 years) and Nelson (3 years) but Orlando is in the same situation as we are, and would most likely not give those guys up with a pick.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Okafor - 2 years.
                  Ariza - 2 years.
                  Boozer - 3 years (they have CHarlotte pick).
                  Thomas - 3 years (they have DET and POR picks).
                  Biedrins - 2 years (GSW have no pick to trade due to restrictions though).
                  Jefferson - 2 years (see Biedrins)
                  Charlie V - 2 years (same as GSW issues on pick)
                  Gooden - 3 years
                  Beasley - 3 years
                  Frye - 3 years
                  Salmons - 3 years (but they have pick gone out with restrictions)
                  Hayes - 3 years (restrictions)
                  Marvin Williams - 2 years


                  Those are the stinkiest of the stinky, in my opinion. Did I miss anyone?
                  I'd be ok with going after those types of players but, again, only if the quality of draft pick(s) and/or prosepect(s) coming back are worthwhile. I remember pushing for an Okafor and/or Ariza trade in the offseason (back when they had that much talked about cap space), to try and get their #10 pick, prior to NO pulling the trigger with Washington.

                  If a total rebuild is decided as the best approach, I think there are at least a few opportunties to get decent return from current roster players, without needed to take one of these god-awful contracts back (ie: Lowry, DeRozan, Bargnani, Ross, without even getting into multi-player packages).

                  I just can't see BC starting another full rebuild, unless he gets MLSE approval and the appropriate contract extension. The other option of course is to get a new GM, but in that case I'd want them in place ahead of the trade deadline, which doesn't seem likely. I suppose immediately at the end of the season could suffice, but there could be some lost opportunities then.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    This is more of a joke post, but here are some markers during season 1 for a player's future.

                    1. No playing time, not even when it's garbage time (DNP-CD): Time for a career change.
                    2. Sent to D-League: Career change.
                    3. Only getting garbage time minutes: NBA journeyman if you can specialize (score or rebound). Otherwise there's always Russia or Australia.
                    4. Never started a single game, even when team was injury depleted: Journeyman if you can find a sucker like Bryan Colangelo.., otherwise, China or Europe.
                    5. Started some games when incumbent injured/slumping: Europe, unless you're really tall.
                    6. Played starter-like minutes without starting: Potential
                    7. Started 25% of games: Potential
                    8. Started more than 50% of games: Potential

                    Btw, if in year two you are still doing #2-5, probably should get ready to play overseas.
                    Last edited by ebrian; Tue Dec 11, 2012, 04:53 PM.
                    your pal,
                    ebrian

                    Comment


                    • ebrian wrote: View Post
                      I'm not really to concede that tank-mode was correct. I don't know what tank-mode really is. Can someone explain this to me? In theory I understand you want to lose all your games, but in practice is it even possible? While avoiding fines from the league, what exactly has to take place to "tank" in the NBA? The only thing I can think of right now is not signing guys like Alan Anderson and Ben Uzoh. Take those two off the team and we probably get Harrison Barnes. But aside from that -- what is tanking, really?
                      What the Raptors did last year was tank.... they just did an awful job at it - surprise.

                      Tanking comes from a GM putting together an awful roster.

                      With a mismatched roster, glaring needs, and an overall lack of talent, losing is naturally going to happen. The Raps did all that last year but, according to BC, Casey still won too much. Now this year with enough talent, Casey is not winning enough and is in fact worse than last season.

                      Imagine, the Raps can't win OR lose correctly.

                      #No3rdYearOption

                      Comment


                      • Yeah we suck at tanking. Golden State is the model NBA franchise when it comes to tanking.
                        Consistently great San Antonio can't rest 50 yr old Tim Duncan for a game, but Golden state can piss away 50 games once they realize they wont make the playoffs. Crazy.
                        The Draft lottery should be equal odds for all non-playoff teams IMO.

                        Comment


                        • pcrombeen wrote: View Post
                          Yeah we suck at tanking. Golden State is the model NBA franchise when it comes to tanking.
                          Consistently great San Antonio can't rest 50 yr old Tim Duncan for a game, but Golden state can piss away 50 games once they realize they wont make the playoffs. Crazy.
                          The Draft lottery should be equal odds for all non-playoff teams IMO.
                          Agreed. In fact I'd rather see it inverted than the way it is now. 17th place team in the league has 25% chance of winning. Fuck tanking.

                          Comment


                          • Oh yeah. All this talk of drafting the top talent is also tunnel vision. Drafting the player(s) would be great. But acquiring assets is key.

                            Look how Houston got Harden. They turned draft picks in to Martin a couple of years back. Martin plus more draft picks and a just drafted player (Lamb) became Harden.

                            Raps have assets nobody wants. Time to change that by taking assets nobody REALLY wants.

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Okafor - 2 years.
                              Ariza - 2 years.
                              Boozer - 3 years (they have CHarlotte pick).
                              Thomas - 3 years (they have DET and POR picks).
                              Biedrins - 2 years (GSW have no pick to trade due to restrictions though).
                              Jefferson - 2 years (see Biedrins)
                              Charlie V - 2 years (same as GSW issues on pick)
                              Gooden - 3 years
                              Beasley - 3 years
                              Frye - 3 years
                              Salmons - 3 years (but they have pick gone out with restrictions)
                              Hayes - 3 years (restrictions)
                              Marvin Williams - 2 years


                              Those are the stinkiest of the stinky, in my opinion. Did I miss anyone?
                              What about Bargnani?

                              Comment


                              • Agree completely with blowing it all up. I'm tired of these ongoing incremental fixes that are leading us on a road to nowhere. This is a star dominated league and you can not win without at least one of them. For me everything should revolve around trying to get the #1 pick in 2014 to draft Andrew Wiggins.

                                Obviously there is no sure thing given the draft lottery but at least try to maximize the chances. This means (a) tanking especially next year (b) ensuring that OKC gets our #1 pick in 2013 (c) trading every possible asset other than JV focusing most on AB, JC, AJ, KL but also DD, ED, TR who are nice complementary players but not difference makers (d) trying to acquire 2014 draft picks of teams that could also be in the mix for the #1 pick in 2014 either directly through trades or in follow-up deals.

                                Ofcourse, it may not work, but at least there would be a reasonably clean slate from which to construct a new team for a more talented GM.

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