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Thread: Hollinger: Raptors' issues start with Bargnani (ESPN Insider)

  1. #21
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    Quote AJ360 wrote: View Post
    I would like to thank ESPN and John Hollinger for writing this article.

    My sincerest thanks,

    - AJ360
    +1

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I gave Hollinger lots of shit. I have to admit, he was right, I was wrong. Now, I still think he has taken every opportunity to stick it to Toronto but given the results you can't blame him.

    Still don't think his comments on draft night were warranted though.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Usagi_yo_Jimbo's Avatar
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    Damn! I dont get this teams' love affair with Bargnani!? The man is struggling big time! If BC doesnt wanna trade him, make Casey bench the guy for f@cks sake! 7 years of "hoping" is too damn long. Make him the 6th - 7th man, if he's hot, ride him if not, go back to the bench. Theres other players that DESERVE the playing time like Ed. The whole organization knows what the problem, why are they too damn proud to admit it.

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    Consider that the Bargnani-Valanciunas frontcourt tandem has been shredded for 109.5 points per 100 possessions, according to NBA.com's advanced stats tool, while playing more than a third of the Raptors' minutes this season.

    Consider further that the Davis-Johnson tandem that backs them up has allowed just 98.1 as a unit, which would lead the league in defensive efficiency. As you might expect, the Bargnani-Johnson duo (105.1) falls right in the middle. (Davis-Valanciunas does not, at 109.0, but in just 71 minutes.)
    This is the quote from the article that got me the most upset. They always say they'll go with the unit that will give them the best chance to win. Considering that management and the coaches know that the Bargnani-Valanciunas pairing is detrimental to the team and still haven't shaken things up really pisses me off. I love Jonas, but get him the hell away from Bargnani.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Consider further that the Davis-Johnson tandem that backs them up has allowed just 98.1 as a unit, which would lead the league in defensive efficiency.
    Quote Michel G wrote: View Post
    This is the quote from the article that got me the most upset. They always say they'll go with the unit that will give them the best chance to win. Considering that management and the coaches know that the Bargnani-Valanciunas pairing is detrimental to the team and still haven't shaken things up really pisses me off. I love Jonas, but get him the hell away from Bargnani.
    That stat is rediculous. I know they're playing against second units but that kind of difference between the starters and the second unit is mind numbing. Does anyone know what that line ups offensive rating is?
    Last edited by hateslosing; Mon Dec 10th, 2012 at 06:51 PM.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    Consider that the Bargnani-Valanciunas frontcourt tandem has been shredded for 109.5 points per 100 possessions, according to NBA.com's advanced stats tool, while playing more than a third of the Raptors' minutes this season.

    The above also points out that playing Val will not make us contend for the playoffs. Those screaming for increased minutes to Val, should not be crying when we get blown out.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    excellent article, every little bit helps (especially an espn article) in eliminating the scum that is andrea bargnani. And then I can go back to watching this team.
    Andrea Bargnani is not 'scum'. He's a decent player on a poor team, who as many people have mentioned is being treated as a cornerstone when he'll never reach that level. To blame him for that is hugely misguided, and to call him 'scum' is offensive. I know Toronto fans are famously fickle, but Jesus wept, the players are hardly to blame for woeful mismanagement. He may be a symbol of everything that's gone wrong with the Colangelo era, but I'll still cheer Bargnani on in every game he plays.
    Last edited by jamiemaca; Mon Dec 10th, 2012 at 08:12 PM.

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    Quote jamiemaca wrote: View Post
    Andrea Bargnani is not 'scum'. He's a decent player on a poor team, who as many people have mentioned is being treated as a cornerstone when he'll never reach that level. To blame him for that is hugely misguided, and to call him 'scum' is offensive. I know Toronto fans are famously fickle, but Jesus wept, the players are hardly to blame for woeful mismanagement. He may be a symbol of everything that's gone wrong with the Colangelo era, but I'll still cheer Bargnani on in every game he plays.
    good for you. He is scum in the sense that he isn't half the player he was last year. He is arguably the worst player on a team you claim is woeful, so how can he be decent?
    Last edited by akashsingh; Mon Dec 10th, 2012 at 08:18 PM.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    good for you. He is scum in the sense that he isn't half the player he was last year. He is arguably the worst player on a team you claim is woeful, so how can he be decent?
    Not being the man you were last year doesn't make you scum, otherwise we'd all fall into that bracket. Sex criminals, fraudsters, they might be rightfully labelled 'scum'. Under-performing athletes, no. He's nowhere near the worst player on the team, he just falls massively short of everyone's expectations. He is what he is, a poor defender and decent scorer who's having a bad season, and for him to get thrown under the bus by the fans night after night and called 'scum' is frankly wrong. Again, as many people here have said, if Bargnani is your number one option then your team is doomed. To blame him for that is to overlook the fundamental causes.

  10. #30
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote jamiemaca wrote: View Post
    He's a decent player on a poor team, who as many people have mentioned is being treated as a cornerstone when he'll never reach that level. To blame him for that is hugely misguided, and to call him 'scum' is offensive. The players are hardly to blame for woeful mismanagement. He may be a symbol of everything that's gone wrong with the Colangelo era, but I'll still cheer Bargnani on in every game he plays.
    Quote jamiemaca wrote: View Post
    He just falls massively short of everyone's expectations. He is what he is, a poor defender and decent scorer who's having a bad season, and for him to get thrown under the bus by the fans night after night and called 'scum' is frankly wrong. Again, as many people here have said, if Bargnani is your number one option then your team is doomed. To blame him for that is to overlook the fundamental causes.


    Two great posts. Welcome to the board!
    Last edited by Joey; Mon Dec 10th, 2012 at 08:41 PM.
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  11. #31
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    Quote jamiemaca wrote: View Post
    Not being the man you were last year doesn't make you scum, otherwise we'd all fall into that bracket. Sex criminals, fraudsters, they might be rightfully labelled 'scum'. Under-performing athletes, no. He's nowhere near the worst player on the team, he just falls massively short of everyone's expectations. He is what he is, a poor defender and decent scorer who's having a bad season, and for him to get thrown under the bus by the fans night after night and called 'scum' is frankly wrong. Again, as many people here have said, if Bargnani is your number one option then your team is doomed. To blame him for that is to overlook the fundamental causes.
    you obviously took it too literally, that's your problem. While he obviously isn't in the same category as a rapist, it is dissapointing to say the least, that someone who is supposed to be in the prime of his career regressed so badly.

    Imo, it is sad that you can cheer for someone (as you stated in your first post) who looks like he lacks the motivation when the cards were stacked in his favor to be good. (basically a loser's mentality)
    Last edited by akashsingh; Mon Dec 10th, 2012 at 08:45 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    This article feels good, because our local raptor media would never do this sort of indepth analysis.


    they would be too worried that they would piss off the raptors, holinger does not give a fuck, if it quacks like a duck its a duck
    Last edited by BasketballCrush; Mon Dec 10th, 2012 at 08:47 PM.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    Imo, it is sad that you can cheer for someone (as you stated in your first post) who looks like he lacks the motivation when the cards were stacked in his favor to be good.
    Then you think its sad that I will be rooting for him as well? If he's wearing a Raptors Jersey, then I'm cheering for him. Period.

    And while I may desire more from him, he's still a Raptor, and I support and root for my team, good times and bad.
    Last edited by Joey; Mon Dec 10th, 2012 at 08:47 PM.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Then you think its sad that I will be rooting for him as well? If he's wearing a Raptors Jersey, then I'm cheering for him. Period.

    And while I may desire more from him, he's still a Raptor, and I support and root for my team, good times and bad.
    I support players that I trust on this team, and it really doesn't take that much for me. Derozan, davis, val, lowry, ross, are all players I will support.

    Sorry Im not a mindless zombie, supporting players I couldn't give a toss about just because they wear a raptors jersey.

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    Quote jamiemaca wrote: View Post
    Andrea Bargnani is not 'scum'. He's a decent player on a poor team, who as many people have mentioned is being treated as a cornerstone when he'll never reach that level. To blame him for that is hugely misguided, and to call him 'scum' is offensive. I know Toronto fans are famously fickle, but Jesus wept, the players are hardly to blame for woeful mismanagement. He may be a symbol of everything that's gone wrong with the Colangelo era, but I'll still cheer Bargnani on in every game he plays.
    1+

  16. #36
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    Although I agree that perhaps Bargs needs a change of scenery, he is not the only problem with how our team is performing.

    Lowry is not, so far at least, proving to be the "saviour" everyone thought he was (Jose should be starting...at least for now IMHO), Fields has not contributed (no real surprise there) and Jonas is going to need time (although he looks to be a special player).

    On the other hand, I have been impressed with DD's work and attitude this year and Ed Davis has been terrific (he definitely deserves more burn, maybe not starting...but more PT).

    Alan Anderson has been solid as has Amir. The rest of the team, especially AB, have been disappointing.

    So long story short, should Bargs go? Probably, but there are more players than him needing a reality check.

  17. #37
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    you obviously took it too literally, that's your problem. While he obviously isn't in the same category as a rapist, it is dissapointing to say the least, that someone who is supposed to be in the prime of his career regressed so badly.

    Imo, it is sad that you can cheer for someone (as you stated in your first post) who looks like he lacks the motivation when the cards were stacked in his favor to be good. (basically a loser's mentality)
    Its sad that you post anything. Ever. He is cheering for the fucking team you dumbfounded dipshit. A loser could more closely be defined as someone who is a fairweather fan who piles on to someone and a team and one player. "thats your problem.". Fucking troll. Maybe you could start looking at the macro and not the micro.

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    Quote Thornbury wrote: View Post
    Its sad that you post anything. Ever. He is cheering for the fucking team you dumbfounded dipshit. A loser could more closely be defined as someone who is a fairweather fan who piles on to someone and a team and one player. "thats your problem.". Fucking troll. Maybe you could start looking at the macro and not the micro.
    While I don't condone name-calling of any kind, or the vulgar language ... this is awesome.
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    Quote Usagi_yo_Jimbo wrote: View Post
    Damn! I dont get this teams' love affair with Bargnani!? The man is struggling big time! If BC doesnt wanna trade him, make Casey bench the guy for f@cks sake! 7 years of "hoping" is too damn long. Make him the 6th - 7th man, if he's hot, ride him if not, go back to the bench. Theres other players that DESERVE the playing time like Ed. The whole organization knows what the problem, why are they too damn proud to admit it.
    Because they believe he is their golden boy. He should be benched.....that's on DC.

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    Quote Halifax Raps Fan wrote: View Post
    Although I agree that perhaps Bargs needs a change of scenery, he is not the only problem with how our team is performing.

    Lowry is not, so far at least, proving to be the "saviour" everyone thought he was (Jose should be starting...at least for now IMHO), Fields has not contributed (no real surprise there) and Jonas is going to need time (although he looks to be a special player).

    On the other hand, I have been impressed with DD's work and attitude this year and Ed Davis has been terrific (he definitely deserves more burn, maybe not starting...but more PT).

    Alan Anderson has been solid as has Amir. The rest of the team, especially AB, have been disappointing.

    So long story short, should Bargs go? Probably, but there are more players than him needing a reality check.
    Jose should not be starting. He cannot defend period. He needs to go. It will not surprise me if he is not in the nba next year.

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