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Thread: Grange: What is Colangelo's biggest error in Toronto?

  1. #101
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    Quote Superchunk wrote: View Post
    Was drafting Darko over Melo a mistake?
    If you're arguing the definition of mistake, you're right. However in an earlier post you compared Colangelo's mistake with a drunk person having sex with cow with which I disagree. The difference between the two is that in one instance the mistake is made by a person of stable mind and and in the other, one of an unstable mind. When a professional makes a decision with knowledge, skill and expertise and it turns out a bad decision, it doesn't negate the fact that he had the best interest of the Organisation he represents in mind. In the case of the drunk though, need I explain.

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    He has two sets of rules.....ones that apply to most players and ones that apply to his main horses ie. Bosh and Bargnani....He is impatient frequently with most players BUT too patient with his main horses. This is because he has a hard time admitting he was wrong. ie...should have traded Bosh in off season prior to his last year here and failing to recognize that AB is not nearly as good as he thinks thus over valuating his trade potential.

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    Quote Superchunk wrote: View Post
    Was drafting Darko over Melo a mistake?
    One has to wonder what kind of player Carmelo would have developed into if drafted by Detroit. Larry Brown wasn't really in the mood to develop young players and was tremendously hands on; not exactly a good fit for Anthony. He might have gotten the same minutes that Milicic got and we might have been asking if drafting Melo over Darko was a mistake. Player development matters and some teams and coaches really suck at it; in my opinion most players that are considered stars right now might not have been if they didn't receive the right opportunity and the right coaching. E.g. this is what the Spurs are very good at and what the Mavericks are very bad at.

  4. #104
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    Are you kidding me? Carmelo was an NBA ready player, there wasn't much to develop. He lead his school to the NCAA Championship. I have a feeling he would fit in-in Detroit just fine.


    Clear #1 pick if it wasn't for James, in any other year.
    Last edited by BasketballCrush; Thu Dec 13th, 2012 at 07:36 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie northgrantballer's Avatar
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    For me the big mistake wasn't so much Bargnani, because I don't blame him for trying to surface potential that WAS there. No sir! For me, the problem was treating Calderon like an untouchable god of sorts. It was clear that Ford was the better point guard in the beginning for me, and I strongly think we should have given Ford the peace of mind that his spot was somewhat in stone rather than create competition with another player-rather than focus on the team. On top of this, Jose got a fat contract which is difficult to move because of the little bang-for-buck.

    .......Oh and not giving Pops a decent contract...

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    Quote northgrantballer wrote: View Post
    For me the big mistake wasn't so much Bargnani, because I don't blame him for trying to surface potential that WAS there. No sir! For me, the problem was treating Calderon like an untouchable god of sorts. It was clear that Ford was the better point guard in the beginning for me, and I strongly think we should have given Ford the peace of mind that his spot was somewhat in stone rather than create competition with another player-rather than focus on the team. On top of this, Jose got a fat contract which is difficult to move because of the little bang-for-buck.

    .......Oh and not giving Pops a decent contract...
    +1 Yessir

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I don't know if there is any proof of coach Mitchell having been fired because he was tough on Bargnani and held him accountable, so I don't know if it's proper to make that statement.
    Officially - to the press anyways, Mitchell was fired because after starting off 8-7, the Raptors lost 2 straight and fell to 8-9. Colangelo then fired Mitchell because "the team was better than their 8-9 record"

    For me, it was not just the firing of Mitchell but also hiring of Triano. When Mitchell was fired I admit I was a believer in Colangelo and I expected him to hire a renown coach. But then he hired Triano on an interim basis and then full-time the following season. I immediately began to believe this was a publicity stunt to have the first "Canadian" coach coaching a Canadian-based/owned team.

    I also believe that Colangelo wasn't happy with the way Mitchell was using Bargnani

    Looking back though Mitchell's 8-9 team was an 8-9 or .500 club.

    Speaking of Mitchell, it seems we've (Canadians and Raptor Fans) have been speaking about Mitchell a lot and he's been featured on some of our sports channels. I guess we really miss him.......

  8. #108
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    Bryan repeadly said that Triano is a players coach and players will be more comfortable playing through their mistakes. (hint hint)





    ...we scrapped that plan fast (once the results became evident).



    In life, the higher up you go on the ladder the more accounting there is to do. The accounting never stops. At least for those of us with responsibilites.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Pill's Avatar
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    I was so upset when we drafted AB instead of Aldridge. I always figured that Aldridge was a safer bet. AB could have been better but with the way the franchise has gone I think it would have been more prudent to go with more of a sure thing. I think LA would have been able to play with Bosh and he bailed anyway so moot point.

  10. #110
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    Quote Pill wrote: View Post
    I was so upset when we drafted AB instead of Aldridge. I always figured that Aldridge was a safer bet. AB could have been better but with the way the franchise has gone I think it would have been more prudent to go with more of a sure thing. I think LA would have been able to play with Bosh and he bailed anyway so moot point.
    I think this was a common thread at the time, the problem was that Aldrige's skillset is so identical to Bosh's, that it was probably in their best interest to try for the home run on the enigma.

    Player development definitely is important, I call your Carmelo and raise you a Beasley, and with that in mind, hiring Triano was pretty bad as well, there wasn't any player growth at all under him. Compare the Triano years with Casey, and the difference is astounding, where did all that defense come from?

  11. #111
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    I remembering begging Chuck Swirsky to somehow convince the raps to draft Aldridge. If only Chuck listened.

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    Quote raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    not stepping down
    lol
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    When Colangelo gets fired or is let go (this is inevitable because this team is *NOT* going to turn things around), it's going to take him a long time to get back to the point where he's able to run an organization like he did here in Toronto. Let's face it, we've given him more than most first time GMs get -- let's not kid ourselves into thinking Phoenix was ALL him *cough* (daddy Colangelo).

    I'm trying to pinpoint the moment in which all other owners thought to themselves "Geez, this guy has really f|_|cked things up in Toronto. Likely really, really badly." If I'm an owner in the NBA, I'm thinking okay -- he drafted some guys who didn't pan out, and he signed some guys he shouldn't have. Yea he bid against himself a few times but he's worried about the team outlook and was sure about who he wanted. And he's had some bad luck with some injuries and guys not re-signing.

    But it isn't until that recent interview where he threw his coach and draft pick under the bus and then proceeded to explain how this team has enough talent, where I think most owners must have looked up and thought "holy cow, this guy is a complete jack-ass. thank goodness he's not my GM."
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    Quote Zewo wrote: View Post
    I don't know how anyone can be critical of drafting Bargs. His comparison was Dirk, and you don't pass up an opportunity to get a Dirk. Turkoglu was OK, I didn't like it at first (I would've preferred Ariza, but he turned us down), but the potential was there. He also was quick to get rid of Turkoglu when things didn't pan out, and got Marion in the process. Marion was awesome for our team in that brief stretch and I was a bit sad we didn't re-sign him that year.

    Also, every contract he signs is always an overpay, that's probably his biggest mistake. I can't recall a Colangelo signing where I don't feel like the player is getting overpaid. Every contract he's given is only worth it if the player plays well beyond what they've shown. (ie, Amir, DD)
    First off, Turkoglu was not "OK" as you put it. That whole situation was a disaster from beginning to end, plain and simple. BC did not turn Turkoglu into Marion either, it was actually something close to the opposite. Marion was in Toronto the previous season thanks to the Jermaine O'Neal trade, and when Marion's contract came off the books, they used that cap space to sign Turkoglu. When Hedo was moved, the Raptors received Barbosa in return for him... and then received a 2nd round pick when they traded Leandro...

    TJ Ford/Nesterovic/1st Rounder > JO > Marion > Turkoglu > Barbosa > 2nd Round Pick....

    * slow clap*
    Last edited by Fully; Fri Dec 14th, 2012 at 12:34 PM.

  15. #115
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    Quote Superchunk wrote: View Post
    Doing something that seemed like a good idea but turned out to be a bad idea is a mistake. It's odd how many people seem to think that something isn't a mistake if it seemed like a decent idea at the time.

    Getting drunk and having sex with a cow is still a mistake, whether or not it seemed like a fine idea at the time.
    The drunken sex with a cow analogy was poorly executed, but you've highlighted one of the more frustrating things that the quickly shrinking group of Colangelo supporters continues to use as a means of justifying BC's grocery list of inept and unsuccessful moves during his tenure... That good intentions should be celebrated somehow, or at the very least, used as an excuse when a move crashes and burns.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    The drunken sex with a cow analogy was poorly executed, but you've highlighted one of the more frustrating things that the quickly shrinking group of Colangelo supporters continues to use as a means of justifying BC's grocery list of inept and unsuccessful moves during his tenure... That good intentions should be celebrated somehow, or at the very least, used as an excuse when a move crashes and burns.
    I agree partly. Everything can't be justified by throwing around stuff like "hindsight" and "Don't you think BC knows more about basketball than you do?" Nevertheless it should be judged with the knowledge that was avaible at the time (looking also at the quality of the way that knowledge was gained).

    On the other hand, some people mention that, at the time, they weren't in favor of Bargnani either. That's not exactly a good argument either when it's not supported by a solid argument on what basis they came to that conclusion, as the value of their assessment is completely unknown. What's their track record, where did they base their ideas on? Are some of those people, for example, the same people who wanted us to draft Biyombo instead of Valanciunas? Are some of those the same people who wanted us to sign Ilyasova this summer? A lot of times it's nothing more than bar-talk after drinking a lot of beer and thinking you're an expert basketball scout.

  17. #117
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    I agree partly. Everything can't be justified by throwing around stuff like "hindsight" and "Don't you think BC knows more about basketball than you do?" Nevertheless it should be judged with the knowledge that was avaible at the time (looking also at the quality of the way that knowledge was gained).

    On the other hand, some people mention that, at the time, they weren't in favor of Bargnani either. That's not exactly a good argument either when it's not supported by a solid argument on what basis they came to that conclusion, as the value of their assessment is completely unknown. What's their track record, where did they base their ideas on? Are some of those people, for example, the same people who wanted us to draft Biyombo instead of Valanciunas? Are some of those the same people who wanted us to sign Ilyasova this summer? A lot of times it's nothing more than bar-talk after drinking a lot of beer and thinking you're an expert basketball scout.
    Good post. People rarely remember let alone mention when they were wrong and remind everyone while singing their own praises when right. Very similar to talking to the guy at a cocktail party about the killing he made on trading stock XYZ yet fails to mention the other trades that ate most of his capital.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Good post. People rarely remember let alone mention when they were wrong and remind everyone while singing their own praises when right. Very similar to talking to the guy at a cocktail party about the killing he made on trading stock XYZ yet fails to mention the other trades that ate most of his capital.
    Exactly. I don't know if you ever talk to people who play internet poker, but I've only ever talked to people who make good money doing it, while on average all people are losing about 10% (which is being taken by the site-owners). I rarely if ever believe them.

  19. #119
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    I agree partly. Everything can't be justified by throwing around stuff like "hindsight" and "Don't you think BC knows more about basketball than you do?" Nevertheless it should be judged with the knowledge that was avaible at the time (looking also at the quality of the way that knowledge was gained).

    On the other hand, some people mention that, at the time, they weren't in favor of Bargnani either. That's not exactly a good argument either when it's not supported by a solid argument on what basis they came to that conclusion, as the value of their assessment is completely unknown. What's their track record, where did they base their ideas on? Are some of those people, for example, the same people who wanted us to draft Biyombo instead of Valanciunas? Are some of those the same people who wanted us to sign Ilyasova this summer? A lot of times it's nothing more than bar-talk after drinking a lot of beer and thinking you're an expert basketball scout.
    I don't think we're quite on the same page.

    For what it's worth, I preferred Aldridge over Bargnani at the time because I thought he was much more of a sure thing. Some of this was no doubt caused from being able to watch Aldridge play in the NCAA for two seasons where Bargnani was virtually an unknown. There were also a couple of highly drafted european big men in previous seasons (Darko, Tskitishvili) who came to the NBA with similar scouting reports as Bargnani and ended up being big flops. Overall I think drafting Bargnani first was a mistake, but didn't become a glaring one until Colangelo stubbornly propped him up as a franchise cornerstone and made so many moves to seemingly cater to him.

    My larger problem is with those who say things like "How was Colangelo supposed to know that Turkoglu would be such a bum?" or "the Jermaine O'Neal deal was a good idea at the time. Colangelo just got unlucky". I have heard countless variations of this sentiment during my time on the RR forums and I find it mind boggling.

    First off, NBA general manager is a position which should be judged on results, not good intentions, no matter what type of external variables may be in play or how unlucky a person may seemingly be. The most infuriating part of Colangelo's reign however is that I don't think you can say that BC got unlucky at all... I just think he got duped, or did a poor job basically at his position. All it would have taken was a quick search at basketball reference to see that JO missed almost as many games as he played in the four years leading up to Toronto trading for him, and that his stats were quickly submarining. A similar search of Turkoglu's career prior to Colangelo throwing a boatload of money at him would have revealed that Hedo had been an average player for most of his career, save for the last two seasons in Orlando where he was playing for his big pay day.

    I remember there were fans (I was one of them) who were echoing these things at the time, and yet Colangelo seemed to lack any type of foresight whatsoever.

  20. #120
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I don't think we're quite on the same page.

    For what it's worth, I preferred Aldridge over Bargnani at the time because I thought he was much more of a sure thing. Some of this was no doubt caused from being able to watch Aldridge play in the NCAA for two seasons where Bargnani was virtually an unknown. There were also a couple of highly drafted european big men in previous seasons (Darko, Tskitishvili) who came to the NBA with similar scouting reports as Bargnani and ended up being big flops. Overall I think drafting Bargnani first was a mistake, but didn't become a glaring one until Colangelo stubbornly propped him up as a franchise cornerstone and made so many moves to seemingly cater to him.

    My larger problem is with those who say things like "How was Colangelo supposed to know that Turkoglu would be such a bum?" or "the Jermaine O'Neal deal was a good idea at the time. Colangelo just got unlucky". I have heard countless variations of this sentiment during my time on the RR forums and I find it mind boggling.

    First off, NBA general manager is a position which should be judged on results, not good intentions, no matter what type of external variables may be in play or how unlucky a person may seemingly be. The most infuriating part of Colangelo's reign however is that I don't think you can say that BC got unlucky at all... I just think he got duped, or did a poor job basically at his position. All it would have taken was a quick search at basketball reference to see that JO missed almost as many games as he played in the four years leading up to Toronto trading for him, and that his stats were quickly submarining. A similar search of Turkoglu's career prior to Colangelo throwing a boatload of money at him would have revealed that Hedo had been an average player for most of his career, save for the last two seasons in Orlando where he was playing for his big pay day.

    I remember there were fans (I was one of them) who were echoing these things at the time, and yet Colangelo seemed to lack any type of foresight whatsoever.
    I could not agree more with what you wrote here. Although I wanted BC to actually trade the pick that year, then Draft Bargs, then Gay AND THEN Aldridge, your overall point is very profound.

    Sometimes the simplest answer is the most correct. If you were to play BC in a game of mini-golf, he would rather bank it off the all 50 obstacles at crazy angles to try and get the hole in one, instead of just making the straight putt.

    His moves dictate themselves. He thinks he knows something that we don't, or that he can convince players to be "come around" or be something that they're not (i.e. Derozan, etc.)

    At the end of the day, in basketball, the talent level of a cornerstone player is really easy to see. There are only 15 guys in the league that are game changers, and the team with one of the top 5 will usually win the championship. You have your Lebron's Melo's and Durant's as tier one players and you have you Kobe's Dirks D-12's as tier two.

    BC gets so much in his own way that he cannot even properly assess his the talent he has, and realize that we do not even have a tier 3 type player on this team (i.e. the josh smith's and steph curry's)
    Last edited by BallaBalla; Fri Dec 14th, 2012 at 02:44 PM.

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