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Thread: Why do we want to trade Jose again?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Jeez, the lack of success the Raptors have had with Calderon is very difficult for me.

    There are three constants in Toronto the last 7 years: Bargnani, Colangelo, and Calderon. They should all go so the franchise can move forward. Jose is not the only problem but he was predominantly the starting point guard so he does have his fair share of the responsibility.
    Thing is, PG play hasn't been a major issue in Toronto's lack of success the past 6 years. The biggest issue has been, and continues to be, the Raptors wings are terrible and unproductive. Derozan has been slightly better this year but the blackhole at the SF spot has dragged down Derozan's production.

    I'm not exactly sure why Calderon has taken the brunt of so many fans' anger. Most players in his shoes (i.e. where every year they try and trade or replace you) would have demanded a trade ages ago or played like crap until they got traded. He's always been a consummate pro, he's always worked hard and never complained and he's been productive offensively for years. Yeah, he's not Chris Paul or Rajon Rondo but Calderon has been the least of this team's problems.

    I've always felt like if Colangelo had put as much effort into finding a SG and SF as he has trying to replace Calderon, this team would have been far better off.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie pillowmint's Avatar
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    I love major play makers like Brevin Knight....yeah cause he got the job done. Bwhahahahaha who's next on your list...Mookie Blaylock...ahahahah. Andre Miller....ahahaha, ok I digress and apologize for the making fun of (all in good spirit I promise)

    Look Calderon can pass, we as a franchise suck, it's kind of a wash...non?

    I think Lowry is a better defender, has a better PER, and has only been with the Raptors for 5 months.

    I'd love to see Calderon get a ring with a contender, I don't want to overpay him, I think he was ok for the Raptors and I'm not willing to go further than that.

    And as far as besting Ford, and Jack...well look where they ended up right? Not exactly champ calibre material.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote pillowmint wrote: View Post
    Let me clear things up. Lowry is a solid solid PG, and definately worth putting in as our starter. If you want to be stat geeks, check out Hollingers PER, explains a lot.


    Thanks
    You mean the PER stat where Calderon's career PER is higher than Lowry's?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Can someone please explain what the following quote means? I got this from an article on NBA.com today.

    "If Calderon is dealt, my guess is it won't be for Gasol, or for any player, but to a team that can send Toronto a pick back and create a huge $15.6 million trade exception for the Raptors"

    Is the $15.6 million trade exception bigger than what we would have if we just played Calderon for the rest of the season and let his contract come off the books?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    Wasn't necessarily being serious. But honestly, Jose has been FAR better at the point than Lowry this season. Lowry hasn't run the team well at all.
    Maybe because Lowry's only managed to play in Casey's system for 13 games while Calderon has gone through it for about a season and a half now.

    Sounds fair?

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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Maybe because Lowry's only managed to play in Casey's system for 13 games while Calderon has gone through it for about a season and a half now.

    Sounds fair?
    That's a good point. Calderon is also very familiar with the tendencies of players like Amir and Ed. Lowry has also been injured. And Lowry is a different kind of point guard. He not only needs to get acquainted with the other players, but the other players also need to get acquainted with him. (Nevertheless, I'm not convinced he's better for the team than Calderon except for his age, but that opinion can easily change.)

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Can someone please explain what the following quote means? I got this from an article on NBA.com today.

    "If Calderon is dealt, my guess is it won't be for Gasol, or for any player, but to a team that can send Toronto a pick back and create a huge $15.6 million trade exception for the Raptors"

    Is the $15.6 million trade exception bigger than what we would have if we just played Calderon for the rest of the season and let his contract come off the books?
    I am guessing it is his contract ($10.6M) plus the difference in salaries ($5M) when trades go beyond $9.8M in salaries going out.

    I don't know though.

    Given that Aldridge botched the Gasol trade kicker bit in that article (you can't get more than max when you are max despite a 15% trade kicker), I am not putting much faith in his calculations on salary.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote pillowmint wrote: View Post
    I love major play makers like Brevin Knight....yeah cause he got the job done. Bwhahahahaha who's next on your list...Mookie Blaylock...ahahahah. Andre Miller....ahahaha, ok I digress and apologize for the making fun of (all in good spirit I promise)

    Look Calderon can pass, we as a franchise suck, it's kind of a wash...non?

    I think Lowry is a better defender, has a better PER, and has only been with the Raptors for 5 months.

    I'd love to see Calderon get a ring with a contender, I don't want to overpay him, I think he was ok for the Raptors and I'm not willing to go further than that.

    And as far as besting Ford, and Jack...well look where they ended up right? Not exactly champ calibre material.
    Maybe I'm just misinterpreting your opening paragraph - sarcasm is often difficult to pick up in text after all - but are you saying that Mookie Blaylock and Andre Miller were (are) not good point guards?

    For the record, Calderon has a higher career PER than Lowry and a significantly lower opponents PER than him this season. I don't want to turn this into a Lowry vs. Calderon debate; I just find it interesting sometimes that the widely accepted narratives involving certain players (Jose is a soft and terrible defender whereas Lowry is a "pitbull") seems to trump what is actually happening on the court and within the stats.

    To answer the original question, I don't think the Raptors should be hellbent on moving Calderon just for the sake of doing it. If they are able to move him in a package along with Bargnani's contract, or the return for him in a trade is a solid prospect or lottery pick then I think you pull the trigger. If the offers for him are lukewarm or the interested teams don't have expendable assets that match with what the Raptors want (Lakers), Toronto should just hold on to him and enjoy the cap space themselves this summer, especially faced with Lowry's injury problems this season.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I am guessing it is his contract ($10.6M) plus the difference in salaries ($5M) when trades go beyond $9.8M in salaries going out.

    I don't know though.

    Given that Aldridge botched the Gasol trade kicker bit in that article (you can't get more than max when you are max despite a 15% trade kicker), I am not putting much faith in his calculations on salary.
    Okay thanks. Hmm, well if BC is serious about shopping this off season then that might be the avenue to go, however I don't have as much faith in his ability to attract elite level talent as I did when he first arrived in Toronto. The extra money the TPE would create (if your theory is correct) won't matter if you still can't attract elite level players.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Trade exceptions can not be used in acquiring free agents, only in another trade.

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Okay thanks. Hmm, well if BC is serious about shopping this off season then that might be the avenue to go, however I don't have as much faith in his ability to attract elite level talent as I did when he first arrived in Toronto. The extra money the TPE would create (if your theory is correct) won't matter if you still can't attract elite level players.
    Even if the Raptors play .500 ball for the remainder of the season it is likely that there will be a new GM in place for the Raptors before the next draft. Even Doug Smith has been calling BC a "lame duck."

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    That's a good point. Calderon is also very familiar with the tendencies of players like Amir and Ed. Lowry has also been injured. And Lowry is a different kind of point guard. He not only needs to get acquainted with the other players, but the other players also need to get acquainted with him. (Nevertheless, I'm not convinced he's better for the team than Calderon except for his age, but that opinion can easily change.)
    No debate that Calderon makes other players around him better. But if you look at Calderon's 8-year career, he only went to the playoffs twice, back to back, during the 206-2007 and 2007-2008 seasons. And the weird thing is, both those times, he wasn't the starting PG. It was TJ Ford. Can we conclude then that Calderon does makes his teammates better, but they perform as good even when Calderon is not playing with them? Probably. And this is where my biggest issue with Calderon is, for him to be able to be productive, the players around him need to be productive.

    IMO, Lowry works both ways. He has the ability to feed off his teammates and be able to get his own shot as well. And sad as it may be, thats how the NBA is now. You need your point guard to be able to score and distribute the ball at the same time. And by score i dont mean just jacking up jumpshots and 3s, but be able penetrate, keep the defense guessing. Calderon is good, not doubt about it, but he is unable to take this team to the next level no matter who he plays with. Can Lowry? Maybe or maybe not, but we've already seen what Calderon can do so its time to give somebody else a chance.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Mon Dec 17th, 2012 at 03:42 PM.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Trade exceptions can not be used in acquiring free agents, only in another trade.
    Except sign and trades. It is how the Lakers got Nash.

    After last summer, as long as Raps are not taxpayer, they can use a trade exception for sign and trade purposes.

    Lakers would not have been able to sign Nash last summer had the new rules been in effect.
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    Raptors Republic Rookie pillowmint's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Maybe I'm just misinterpreting your opening paragraph - sarcasm is often difficult to pick up in text after all - but are you saying that Mookie Blaylock and Andre Miller were (are) not good point guards?

    For the record, Calderon has a higher career PER than Lowry and a significantly lower opponents PER than him this season. I don't want to turn this into a Lowry vs. Calderon debate; I just find it interesting sometimes that the widely accepted narratives involving certain players (Jose is a soft and terrible defender whereas Lowry is a "pitbull") seems to trump what is actually happening on the court and within the stats.

    To answer the original question, I don't think the Raptors should be hellbent on moving Calderon just for the sake of doing it. If they are able to move him in a package along with Bargnani's contract, or the return for him in a trade is a solid prospect or lottery pick then I think you pull the trigger. If the offers for him are lukewarm or the interested teams don't have expendable assets that match with what the Raptors want (Lakers), Toronto should just hold on to him and enjoy the cap space themselves this summer, especially faced with Lowry's injury problems this season.
    You are not misinterpreting, I was being Sarcastic. Can I ask, how is it that these guys are 'good to great' point guards when (with the exception of Calderon) have been traded multiple times, have boggling assist numbers, and absolutely nothing to show for it. Brevin Knight was waived by the Bobcats...waived! I know you're going to mention that Stockton doesn't have anything to show either and how can I call him a bad point guard...I wouldn't, he was an amazing point guard, in an amazing era of ball. None of the other PG's were really a part of that era. It's a bit of a Raptors fan logic I find when people talk about the amazing stats of a player, on a team that can't go anywhere. Who cares? If Calderon was so great how come all the teams desperate for 'good to great' PG's aren't busting down our door? How come they never did?

    I actually like the PG position for us, and I agree it doesn't have much to do with us losing right now. And I wouldn't trade Calderon for the sake of a trade, that's just stupid. But I'm tired of people telling me that he's just this fabulous PG when in reality he has nothing to show us from his tenure as a Raptor. Again, sounds like I'm ripping him apart, and that's not my goal, he's a good guy, love his ethic, probably one of the better Raps, just hasn't made us better that's all.

    As for PER I was talking about this year, Lowry is still only 26 so I don't imagine the stats to match up. Even if he's 49 they're not going to, very different types of PG's. I prefer a slashing PG who can score, and defend. He's not as good a facilitator, but as long as that's understood again, I'm ok with it.

    I think you make good points but I'm not ready to jump on the positive Raps side without a lot more wins, and I'm not going to believe that Calderon is the answer either.
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    Quote pillowmint wrote: View Post
    You are not misinterpreting, I was being Sarcastic. Can I ask, how is it that these guys are 'good to great' point guards when (with the exception of Calderon) have been traded multiple times, have boggling assist numbers, and absolutely nothing to show for it. Brevin Knight was waived by the Bobcats...waived! I know you're going to mention that Stockton doesn't have anything to show either and how can I call him a bad point guard...I wouldn't, he was an amazing point guard, in an amazing era of ball. None of the other PG's were really a part of that era. It's a bit of a Raptors fan logic I find when people talk about the amazing stats of a player, on a team that can't go anywhere. Who cares? If Calderon was so great how come all the teams desperate for 'good to great' PG's aren't busting down our door? How come they never did?
    I see a lot of holes in your logic.

    First off, being traded multiple times is not a reliable measure of someone's worth. Here are a list of players who have been traded at least twice during their career: Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, Jason Kidd, Charles Barkley, Gary Payton, Ray Allen, Clyde Drexler, etc. All those players rank within the top 31 of all-time win shares.

    Secondly, if winning championships is the ultimate measure of a point guard then what does that say about cats like Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Stockton, Kevin Johnson, Steve Nash, etc. Even other greats like Gary Payton and Kidd didn't win titles until very late in their careers in largely diminished roles... especially in Payton's case.

    Lastly, I never said that Blaylock and Miller deserved to be considered with the all time greats but it's ridiculous to say that they weren't, at the very least, "good" NBA point guards.

    Blaylock is considered one of the best defensive point guards of all time. Fifth all time in steals per game, 12th all time in career steals and six trips to the all-defensive first or second teams in what you say yourself was an "amazing era of ball". Offensively he's top 30 in career assists and three pointers made.

    Miller has been one of the most durable and consistent guards of the last 13 seasons. He's tenth all time in career assists and is still churning along. There's only five players from the shot clock era who have averaged more than 16 points, 10 assists, 4.5 rebounds and 1.5 steals in a single season. Andre Miller is one of them, and the other four are Chris Paul, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd and Rod Strickland.

    For what it's worth, Brevin Knight and Calderon are a level below Miller/Blaylock for me but their careers still don't deserve to be ridiculed. Not putting Blaylock/Miller with the Isiah's and Magic's is one thing but saying that they weren't good is insane. Not every team in the league can have Chris Paul or Rondo... that doesn't make the other 28 PGs around the association absolute garbage.

    I actually like the PG position for us, and I agree it doesn't have much to do with us losing right now. And I wouldn't trade Calderon for the sake of a trade, that's just stupid. But I'm tired of people telling me that he's just this fabulous PG when in reality he has nothing to show us from his tenure as a Raptor. Again, sounds like I'm ripping him apart, and that's not my goal, he's a good guy, love his ethic, probably one of the better Raps, just hasn't made us better that's all.
    I never said he was a "fabulous" point guard, nor did I ever refer to him as one of the "great" ones in the league. All I said is that he's done a decent job for the Raptors this season, and more importantly, they've badly NEEDED him so far with Lowry sitting out so many games with various injuries. If you read my post again, I'm actually advocating the Raptors a) trade him if the right deal were to be presented or b) let him walk at the end of the season and use the salary cap relief for themselves. I'm not falling all over myself to give Calderon unwarranted praise or hitching the franchise to him for the next 5 seasons... I'm just being rational.


    As for PER I was talking about this year, Lowry is still only 26 so I don't imagine the stats to match up. Even if he's 49 they're not going to, very different types of PG's. I prefer a slashing PG who can score, and defend. He's not as good a facilitator, but as long as that's understood again, I'm ok with it.
    You were the one who referenced PER multiple times in the thread so I figured it was a fair way to evaulate the two. Like I said before, I don't want to turn this into a Calderon/Lowry debate, and quite frankly, I would choose Lowry in a vacuum in most cases. I just think you should dig a little deeper into both the offensive and defensive metrics for both players before trying to use them in the argument.

    I think you make good points but I'm not ready to jump on the positive Raps side without a lot more wins, and I'm not going to believe that Calderon is the answer either.
    Once again, I never claimed Calderon was the answer. I just don't believe in shipping Calderon if the right deal isn't there, especially with Lowry's status so uncertain for the rest of the year.
    Last edited by Fully; Tue Dec 18th, 2012 at 01:07 PM.

  16. #76
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I don't think we trade Calderon because he's done anything wrong or played poorly. It just makes sense to trade him now because he has value both as a player and as an expiring contract, and this team doesn't exactly have too many strengths from which it can trade from.

    He is a solid player that half the league would consider an upgrade and this team needs an infusion of talent. Stop dragging his name through the dirt and call it like it is. We need help and trading Calderon can get us that.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I see a lot of holes in your logic.

    First off, being traded multiple times is not a reliable measure of someone's worth. Here are a list of players who have been traded at least twice during their career: Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, Jason Kidd, Charles Barkley, Gary Payton, Ray Allen, Clyde Drexler, etc. All those players rank within the top 31 of all-time win shares.

    Secondly, if winning championships is the ultimate measure of a point guard then what does that say about cats like Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Stockton, Kevin Johnson, Steve Nash, etc. Even other greats like Gary Payton and Kidd didn't win titles until very late in their careers in largely diminished roles... especially in Payton's case.

    Lastly, I never said that Blaylock and Miller deserved to be considered with the all time greats but it's ridiculous to say that they weren't, at the very least, "good" NBA point guards.

    Blaylock is considered one of the best defensive point guards of all time. Fifth all time in steals per game, 12th all time in career steals and six trips to the all-defensive first or second teams in what you say yourself was an "amazing era of ball". Offensively he's top 30 in career assists and three pointers made.

    Miller has been one of the most durable and consistent guards of the last 13 seasons. He's tenth all time in career assists and is still churning along. There's only five players from the shot clock era who have averaged more than 16 points, 10 assists, 4.5 rebounds and 1.5 steals in a single season. Andre Miller is one of them, and the other four are Chris Paul, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd and Rod Strickland.

    For what it's worth, Brevin Knight and Calderon are a level below Miller/Blaylock for me but their careers still don't deserve to be ridiculed. Not putting Blaylock/Miller with the Isiah's and Magic's is one thing but saying that they weren't good is insane. Not every team in the league can have Chris Paul or Rondo... that doesn't make the other 28 PGs around the association absolute garbage.



    I never said he was a "fabulous" point guard, nor did I ever refer to him as one of the "great" ones in the league. All I said is that he's done a decent job for the Raptors this season, and more importantly, they've badly NEEDED him so far with Lowry sitting out so many games with various injuries. If you read my post again, I'm actually advocating the Raptors a) trade him if the right deal were to be presented or b) let him walk at the end of the season and use the salary cap relief for themselves. I'm not falling all over myself to give Calderon unwarranted praise or hitching the franchise to him for the next 5 seasons... I'm just being rational.



    You were the one who referenced PER multiple times in the thread so I figured it was a fair way to evaulate the two. Like I said before, I don't want to turn this into a Calderon/Lowry debate, and quite frankly, I would choose Lowry in a vacuum in most cases. I just think you should dig a little deeper into both the offensive and defensive metrics for both players before trying to use them in the argument.



    Once again, I never claimed Calderon was the answer. I just don't believe in shipping Calderon if the right deal isn't there, especially with Lowry's status so uncertain for the rest of the year.
    Actually, Payton averaged 28.5 mins in his first year with the heat then 22.1 mins the following year. Diminished, but not largely diminished. I dont want people to think that The Glove hung out in the NBA till nobody gave him minutes.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Actually, Payton averaged 28.5 mins in his first year with the heat then 22.1 mins the following year. Diminished, but not largely diminished. I dont want people to think that The Glove hung out in the NBA till nobody gave him minutes.
    Payton's career averages: 16.3 ppg 6.7 apg 3.9 rpg 1.8 spg 18.9 PER
    Payton's averages during championship season in Miami: 7.7 ppg 3.2 apg 2.9 rpg 0.9 spg 10.7 PER

    Maybe we're just arguing over semantics but that is what I would call a largely diminished role. Regardless, my original point was that being one of the top PGs in the league - which Payton undoubtedly was for a lot of his career - doesn't necessarily guarantee championship success. If it did then why didn't it happen before he was on the last legs of his career?

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Payton's career averages: 16.3 ppg 6.7 apg 3.9 rpg 1.8 spg 18.9 PER
    Payton's averages during championship season in Miami: 7.7 ppg 3.2 apg 2.9 rpg 0.9 spg 10.7 PER

    Maybe we're just arguing over semantics but that is what I would call a largely diminished role. Regardless, my original point was that being one of the top PGs in the league - which Payton undoubtedly was for a lot of his career - doesn't necessarily guarantee championship success. If it did then why didn't it happen before he was on the last legs of his career?
    Michael Jordan

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Michael Jordan
    haha
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