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Why do we want to trade Jose again?

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  • #31
    He certainly plays better when there is another point guard in the picture.

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    • #32
      Jose Calderon Averages as Starter: 13.2 Points, 11.5 Assists, 4.1 Rebs ,45% FG%
      Kyle Lowry Averages as Starter: 16.0 points, 5.7 assists, 5.5 Rebounds, 41% FG%

      Most telling of all however, is Jose's 4-6 record, compared to Kyle Lowry's miserable 2-13 record as starting pg. Is Lowry more talented? Quite possibly. However does Jose work better for this team? No question.

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      • #33
        Jose is not the answer for Toronto. He has more wins than Lowry as a starter, possibly better stats, but this team needs to move on from Jose.

        Here are my reasons:
        - Jose is 31 years old and we are rebuilding.
        - He is injury prone (I admit he's been healthy the last couple of seasons) and will play every international event (world cup + olympics)
        - He will probably get offers from Europe once his contract ends, which potentially means overpaying to keep him. $7M per season would be too much to keep him.
        - He is not a winner. How do you explain last year when he was a starter? Bryan, Andrea and Jose are all constants from the past 7 years. They all need to go.
        - If he is asked to play backup, then he will probably get minutes in the 4th. I hate the 2PG line up, especially late in the game.
        - His assist to turnover is low, but he plays it safe. Safe ball does not equate to winning ball, not in the NBA.
        - For a guy with a quality FG% he seems afraid to shoot the ball.

        I am not sure if Lowry is the answer, but Jose is definitely not the answer going forward for our team. Not in my opinion at least.

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        • #34
          JB5 wrote: View Post
          this is crazy, he goes off and everyone is loving him.. Jose is a backup point gaurd unless its on a team like miami where they have 2 superstars.. #josesucks
          Very much agree.

          What success has Toronto had with Jose as the starter? Anyone?

          Jose is playing great but the way he has been treated by organization and his quotes make him as good as gone this summer.

          Oh yeah, his age and continued play in international competition combined with injury history is the white elephant currently in the room.

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          • #35
            Interesting to note that there have been 8 triple doubles in Raptor history and Calderon is the only player with 2. Alvin Williams was the last Raptor to get one before Jose's pair this season.

            http://thenbehteam.blogspot.ca/2011/...potential.html

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            • #36
              omgsomuchpotential wrote: View Post
              Why do we want to trade Jose? Because we're not contending - we're rebuilding. And Jose has value (even more after his triple-double performance) as an asset. We need to generate as much young talent as we can in this rebuild period if we want to someday reach the playoffs and more.
              Somebody buy this gentleman a scotch.

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              • #37
                KHD wrote: View Post
                Oh for sure, I'm not saying Lowry isn't capable of improvement, but so far Jose has shown a much better ability to run a team. Lowry plays too much hero-ball. Hopefully he can get healthy and then get better acquainted with his teammates. He's got to trust them more.
                That is the key.

                If Lowry can't conform to what the team is showing since he and Bargnani have been out, then I am all for sending Lowry on his way. The hero ball needs to be a carefully selected option. Hero ball has such a thin line between selfish and stallion. It has been a long time since the Raptors have not only had someone able to get his own shot but also so willing to step up.

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                • #38
                  stretch wrote: View Post
                  Interesting to note that there have been 8 triple doubles in Raptor history and Calderon is the only player with 2. Alvin Williams was the last Raptor to get one before Jose's pair this season.

                  http://thenbehteam.blogspot.ca/2011/...potential.html
                  Ben Uzoh had a triple double for us last year...What else did they miss on there??

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                  • #39
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Very much agree.

                    What success has Toronto had with Jose as the starter? Anyone?

                    Jose is playing great but the way he has been treated by organization and his quotes make him as good as gone this summer.

                    Oh yeah, his age and continued play in international competition combined with injury history is the white elephant currently in the room.
                    You mention all the time the lack of succes the Raptors had with Calderon. That's too easy for me. There are many good players that didn't have succes with their team when the talent around them (and/or the coaching) just isn't good enough. It's only the great players that can lift teams to another level. Aldridge can't lead the Blazers to a good record alone (and he has arguably more talent around him than in Toronto), Kevin Love couldn't win without Adelman and Rubio (and they have yet to prove that they can now) to mention just a few players a lot of people would love to have in Toronto. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

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                    • #40
                      Either way, it does not look like a decision that needs to be made now. Likely closer to the deadline. My thoughts on it:
                      -Right now, especially with Lowry out, Jose is great for the team, because at the very least, with our season likely in the gutter, he is much better at facilitating for our young players like Ed, Jonas and Ross.
                      -His value should stay high, as it should be. I'm sure teams have been calling for years about Jose, despite his flaws. But with his contract, I'm sure teams were also not offering anything worthwhile. Suddenly though, his contract could have a reverse effect this season. With him being a quality player, and a nice big expiring contract, teams will be calling more than ever, and hopefully this can create at least some kind of bidding war.
                      -I'm not sold on Lowry at this point for the future of the position, so the move should hopefully bring some young PG back, even a backup who might be a project, or net us at least a 1st rd pick in one of the next two drafts. For instance, even though I can't think of any way to make it work, if OKC called us and offered Maynor, a 1st rd pick (both my criteria met!) and somehow managed to make the money work or get a 3rd team involved, I'd be all for that.
                      -Finally, I have no problem with Jose coming back as a free agent. Not sure how that could happen. If they still have an empty spot, and if they're not sold on Lowry either, I could see them really pushing Jose to come back, thinking they might trade Lowry next season, and they need a backup who can step up and start.

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                      • #41
                        DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
                        Ben Uzoh had a triple double for us last year...What else did they miss on there??
                        They didn't miss it, it just happened after they wrote the article.

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                        • #42
                          Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                          They didn't miss it, it just happened after they wrote the article.
                          O didnt realize the article was that old

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                          • #43
                            DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
                            Ben Uzoh had a triple double for us last year...What else did they miss on there??
                            The source I used was from 2011. My bad.

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                            • #44
                              planetmars wrote: View Post
                              Jose is not the answer for Toronto. He has more wins than Lowry as a starter, possibly better stats, but this team needs to move on from Jose.

                              Here are my reasons:
                              - Jose is 31 years old and we are rebuilding.
                              - He is injury prone (I admit he's been healthy the last couple of seasons) and will play every international event (world cup + olympics)
                              - He will probably get offers from Europe once his contract ends, which potentially means overpaying to keep him. $7M per season would be too much to keep him.
                              - He is not a winner. How do you explain last year when he was a starter? Bryan, Andrea and Jose are all constants from the past 7 years. They all need to go.
                              - If he is asked to play backup, then he will probably get minutes in the 4th. I hate the 2PG line up, especially late in the game.
                              - His assist to turnover is low, but he plays it safe. Safe ball does not equate to winning ball, not in the NBA.
                              - For a guy with a quality FG% he seems afraid to shoot the ball.

                              I am not sure if Lowry is the answer, but Jose is definitely not the answer going forward for our team. Not in my opinion at least.
                              Just to counter these:
                              - Jose is 31 years old and we are rebuilding. -> Rebuilding teams need veterans. Jose has always been a good leader and teammate.
                              - He is injury prone (I admit he's been healthy the last couple of seasons) and will play every international event (world cup + olympics) -> He is a bit injury prone, but if you've watched Lowry this season, you've also seen how much an injury can influence performance for any player. Difference is, when Jose's play goes down a bit from playing hurt, he doesn't drag the rest of the team down trying to force his game.
                              - He will probably get offers from Europe once his contract ends, which potentially means overpaying to keep him. $7M per season would be too much to keep him. -> Jose will stay in the NBA as long as he thinks he can play here. I don't think he'll leave for Spain until he retires from the NBA, and he's definitely not ready for that. Also, the offers from Europe won't be that big...a lot of teams are trying to save money these days. I wouldn't be surprised to see him get an NBA deal at maybe 3-4 mill per year for 2 or 3 years. Maybe a mid-level for a one or 2 year deal, tops, if a playoff team really wants a backup veteran PG.
                              - He is not a winner. How do you explain last year when he was a starter? Bryan, Andrea and Jose are all constants from the past 7 years. They all need to go. -> Umm....He was maybe our best player in the playoff series against the Nets. He's been part of winners here, in Spain before he came, and with the Spanish National team. Give him good players to play with and he invariably has success.
                              - If he is asked to play backup, then he will probably get minutes in the 4th. I hate the 2PG line up, especially late in the game. -> This has entirely nothing to do with Jose. This is a coach's decision. Whether you hate it or not, if it works, why not do it? If it doesn't, then isn't that the coach's fault for trying or failing to recognize? What makes you think Casey will not use another PG, like Lucas or whoever, as a 2nd PG......
                              - His assist to turnover is low, but he plays it safe. Safe ball does not equate to winning ball, not in the NBA. -> Say that in the playoffs, where turnovers lose series....Just ask OKC. Safe ball does equate to winning ball. Maybe Jose could stand to take a few more chances here and there, but his mentality is fine. Maybe we need another player or two who can make those plays instead...they don't have to come from your PG, but Demar can't do that, and we don't have a SF, really at all, right now.
                              - For a guy with a quality FG% he seems afraid to shoot the ball. -> Reluctant, maybe, but not afraid. This is one of Jose's flaws, and it's one most coaches are a little glad to have in a PG, because he is always looking for his teammates to score instead of himself.

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                              • #45
                                Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                                You mention all the time the lack of succes the Raptors had with Calderon. That's too easy for me. There are many good players that didn't have succes with their team when the talent around them (and/or the coaching) just isn't good enough. It's only the great players that can lift teams to another level. Aldridge can't lead the Blazers to a good record alone (and he has arguably more talent around him than in Toronto), Kevin Love couldn't win without Adelman and Rubio (and they have yet to prove that they can now) to mention just a few players a lot of people would love to have in Toronto. Correlation doesn't equal causation.
                                Jeez, the lack of success the Raptors have had with Calderon is very difficult for me.

                                There are three constants in Toronto the last 7 years: Bargnani, Colangelo, and Calderon. They should all go so the franchise can move forward. Jose is not the only problem but he was predominantly the starting point guard so he does have his fair share of the responsibility.

                                For the record, I would love nothing more than to see Jose continue in Toronto as a backup after this season. There is no question he is a good player but he is not a difference maker as your post implies.

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