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Thread: Why do we want to trade Jose again?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    Ben Uzoh had a triple double for us last year...What else did they miss on there??
    They didn't miss it, it just happened after they wrote the article.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    They didn't miss it, it just happened after they wrote the article.
    O didnt realize the article was that old

  3. #43
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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    Ben Uzoh had a triple double for us last year...What else did they miss on there??
    The source I used was from 2011. My bad.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Jose is not the answer for Toronto. He has more wins than Lowry as a starter, possibly better stats, but this team needs to move on from Jose.

    Here are my reasons:
    - Jose is 31 years old and we are rebuilding.
    - He is injury prone (I admit he's been healthy the last couple of seasons) and will play every international event (world cup + olympics)
    - He will probably get offers from Europe once his contract ends, which potentially means overpaying to keep him. $7M per season would be too much to keep him.
    - He is not a winner. How do you explain last year when he was a starter? Bryan, Andrea and Jose are all constants from the past 7 years. They all need to go.
    - If he is asked to play backup, then he will probably get minutes in the 4th. I hate the 2PG line up, especially late in the game.
    - His assist to turnover is low, but he plays it safe. Safe ball does not equate to winning ball, not in the NBA.
    - For a guy with a quality FG% he seems afraid to shoot the ball.

    I am not sure if Lowry is the answer, but Jose is definitely not the answer going forward for our team. Not in my opinion at least.
    Just to counter these:
    - Jose is 31 years old and we are rebuilding. -> Rebuilding teams need veterans. Jose has always been a good leader and teammate.
    - He is injury prone (I admit he's been healthy the last couple of seasons) and will play every international event (world cup + olympics) -> He is a bit injury prone, but if you've watched Lowry this season, you've also seen how much an injury can influence performance for any player. Difference is, when Jose's play goes down a bit from playing hurt, he doesn't drag the rest of the team down trying to force his game.
    - He will probably get offers from Europe once his contract ends, which potentially means overpaying to keep him. $7M per season would be too much to keep him. -> Jose will stay in the NBA as long as he thinks he can play here. I don't think he'll leave for Spain until he retires from the NBA, and he's definitely not ready for that. Also, the offers from Europe won't be that big...a lot of teams are trying to save money these days. I wouldn't be surprised to see him get an NBA deal at maybe 3-4 mill per year for 2 or 3 years. Maybe a mid-level for a one or 2 year deal, tops, if a playoff team really wants a backup veteran PG.
    - He is not a winner. How do you explain last year when he was a starter? Bryan, Andrea and Jose are all constants from the past 7 years. They all need to go. -> Umm....He was maybe our best player in the playoff series against the Nets. He's been part of winners here, in Spain before he came, and with the Spanish National team. Give him good players to play with and he invariably has success.
    - If he is asked to play backup, then he will probably get minutes in the 4th. I hate the 2PG line up, especially late in the game. -> This has entirely nothing to do with Jose. This is a coach's decision. Whether you hate it or not, if it works, why not do it? If it doesn't, then isn't that the coach's fault for trying or failing to recognize? What makes you think Casey will not use another PG, like Lucas or whoever, as a 2nd PG......
    - His assist to turnover is low, but he plays it safe. Safe ball does not equate to winning ball, not in the NBA. -> Say that in the playoffs, where turnovers lose series....Just ask OKC. Safe ball does equate to winning ball. Maybe Jose could stand to take a few more chances here and there, but his mentality is fine. Maybe we need another player or two who can make those plays instead...they don't have to come from your PG, but Demar can't do that, and we don't have a SF, really at all, right now.
    - For a guy with a quality FG% he seems afraid to shoot the ball. -> Reluctant, maybe, but not afraid. This is one of Jose's flaws, and it's one most coaches are a little glad to have in a PG, because he is always looking for his teammates to score instead of himself.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    You mention all the time the lack of succes the Raptors had with Calderon. That's too easy for me. There are many good players that didn't have succes with their team when the talent around them (and/or the coaching) just isn't good enough. It's only the great players that can lift teams to another level. Aldridge can't lead the Blazers to a good record alone (and he has arguably more talent around him than in Toronto), Kevin Love couldn't win without Adelman and Rubio (and they have yet to prove that they can now) to mention just a few players a lot of people would love to have in Toronto. Correlation doesn't equal causation.
    Jeez, the lack of success the Raptors have had with Calderon is very difficult for me.

    There are three constants in Toronto the last 7 years: Bargnani, Colangelo, and Calderon. They should all go so the franchise can move forward. Jose is not the only problem but he was predominantly the starting point guard so he does have his fair share of the responsibility.

    For the record, I would love nothing more than to see Jose continue in Toronto as a backup after this season. There is no question he is a good player but he is not a difference maker as your post implies.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  6. #46
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Yeah I would do a 6 MIL/Year deal,

    Would Calderon?
    I think he would, since we all know he will never feel as welcomed as he has been in T.O. And he has seniority and a chance to retire and play his entire career as a Rap. The first to do so if I am not mistaken.

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Honestly is this surprising? everyone in the league and fans themselves know Calderon is a good point guard no doubt about it, its just anytime someone comes in to replace him he plays much much better I think being a starter for Raps so long it hurts his ego to come off the bench and hinders his play.

    Granted though a healthy Lowry is the real deal and woud much rather start him over Calderon and thats not an insult to him just a recognition of what Lowry as a player is.

  8. #48

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    One of the main problems here is that people are simply advocating for Lowry over Calderon based on age. Is it that outlandish to think that Calderon will be playing as long as a reckless Kyle Lowry? I mean Jose's only 4 and a half years older than Lowry and his playing style is much more suited to lasting deep into his 30's. I'm not saying that Jose is a Hall of Famer but Jose could very well last as long as Steve Nash whereas I see Lowry out of the NBA at the age of 34 or 35. The point is, once Lowry starts slowing down, he's done whereas Jose will be playing this way for another 5-6 years, more than enough time to find a good point guard in the draft.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Rookie pillowmint's Avatar
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    Jesus H Mr. Christie!

    What kool-aid are people drinking, I want in!

    This is what makes Toronto fans so crazy, one minute we love our team the next we hate. Same with the players. What nonsense.

    Let me clear things up. Lowry is a solid solid PG, and definately worth putting in as our starter. If you want to be stat geeks, check out Hollingers PER, explains a lot.

    If I could trade Calderon, I would. Especially if a high value player could be in got in return, if not then keep him.

    I'm glad he had a great game, I'm glad we won, but let's not forget that we still suck...sorry to be the hope dasher. What's worse is whether or not this turns into another classic 30-52, 34-48, 29-53, season. In which case we'll have no pick...awesome.

    Calderon is not a starter, if he was we could have traded him earlier for something....it never happened.

    Can we get back to normal, let's continue to dislike this season (despite the exciting win) until they at least get to .500, and stop thinking that Calderon is the answer and that Lowry was a misstep.

    Thanks
    i8theball.com it's a website...about, you know....basketball.

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote pillowmint wrote: View Post
    Jesus H Mr. Christie!

    What kool-aid are people drinking, I want in!

    This is what makes Toronto fans so crazy, one minute we love our team the next we hate. Same with the players. What nonsense.

    Let me clear things up. Lowry is a solid solid PG, and definately worth putting in as our starter. If you want to be stat geeks, check out Hollingers PER, explains a lot.

    If I could trade Calderon, I would. Especially if a high value player could be in got in return, if not then keep him.

    I'm glad he had a great game, I'm glad we won, but let's not forget that we still suck...sorry to be the hope dasher. What's worse is whether or not this turns into another classic 30-52, 34-48, 29-53, season. In which case we'll have no pick...awesome.

    Calderon is not a starter, if he was we could have traded him earlier for something....it never happened.

    Can we get back to normal, let's continue to dislike this season (despite the exciting win) until they at least get to .500, and stop thinking that Calderon is the answer and that Lowry was a misstep.

    Thanks
    +1

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic Starter Just Is's Avatar
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    Quote pillowmint wrote: View Post
    Jesus H Mr. Christie!

    What kool-aid are people drinking, I want in!

    This is what makes Toronto fans so crazy, one minute we love our team the next we hate. Same with the players. What nonsense.

    Let me clear things up. Lowry is a solid solid PG, and definately worth putting in as our starter. If you want to be stat geeks, check out Hollingers PER, explains a lot.

    If I could trade Calderon, I would. Especially if a high value player could be in got in return, if not then keep him.

    I'm glad he had a great game, I'm glad we won, but let's not forget that we still suck...sorry to be the hope dasher. What's worse is whether or not this turns into another classic 30-52, 34-48, 29-53, season. In which case we'll have no pick...awesome.

    Calderon is not a starter, if he was we could have traded him earlier for something....it never happened.

    Can we get back to normal, let's continue to dislike this season (despite the exciting win) until they at least get to .500, and stop thinking that Calderon is the answer and that Lowry was a misstep.

    Thanks
    I agree with pretty much everything you said here. I'm a Calderon fan (I have a bias for Raptors player as there is only one that I don't like) but honestly, people are really fickle here. The way I see it, Calderon isn't resigning here unless he's getting overpaid. If he wanted to stay for a good price, I'd say we should keep him. The Raptor's strongest position is point guard for a reason but at the same time, all implication is that he wants to leave. Can he maintain this level of play? If I'm being honest, I'd like to say yes, but the answer is most likely no (given that we have seen his play).

    Especially if people really do think that Lowry is the problem (given when you compare both player's current positions in PER (Lowry at 6th vs Calderon at 24) for PGs. Or taking all players into account (33 for Lowry vs 97 for Calderon)..for what its worth, the only other Raptor in the top 50 is Ed Davis at 27.

    In terms of whats wrong with the Raptors...the problem ISN'T at PG.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    i think this draft is the best draft to lose a pick!
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    i think this draft is the best draft to lose a pick!
    Random but, I agree. Other than Shabazz the rest of the top3 are most likely to be centers.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    I'm sticking with Jose. Your true, traditional pass-first point guard. Not many teams left in the league that has one... Rondo, Paul, Nash and Kidd are only ones I can name.

  15. #55
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    ....In about 20 - 25 games Jose will qualify for some all-time rankings (15 000 min played) where he'll rank 7th in all time assist%. The names ahead of him - John Stockton, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Magic Johnson, Brevin Knight. The names behind him - Mark Jackson, Jason Kidd, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Kevin Porter, Isaih Thomas. Of those names listed none have a better assist:to ratio than Jose, with Chris Paul being the closest behind him...You can call Jose 'dribbles' all you like, but the guy is one of the best play makers in the history of the game. That doesn't mean he doesn't have his weaknesses but this guy is a legit NBA starter thats gone undervalued by fans and this organization for the last 4 years.
    A lot of info there I didn't realize, and he didn't get into the league until he was 24. always loved and valued his play. He's got weaknesses, but they have been more visible on the teams that BC has constructed than they would have been on teams with decent C and PF.

  16. #56
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone doubts what Jose can do on offense. He's a good distributor, can hit open shots, protects the ball and manages the game well, but what's always been his achiles heel is his defense. If he could play D then he would be very comparable to J. Kidd, imo, and there would be no doubts as to whether he is a worthy starter or not.

  17. #57
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Maybe unrelated but I think "Kendall Marshall" will be something special when he gets some legit NBA time.

  18. #58
    Raptors Republic Rookie Jkwasia's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Calderon is clearly more than a 'back up'. The guy proves his mettle time and again. Against Ford, Jack and now Lowry. He shows it every time the trade talks come up.

    In about 20 - 25 games Jose will qualify for some all-time rankings (15 000 min played) where he'll rank 7th in all time assist%. The names ahead of him - John Stockton, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Magic Johnson, Brevin Knight. The names behind him - Mark Jackson, Jason Kidd, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Kevin Porter, Isaih Thomas. Of those names listed none have a better assist:to ratio than Jose, with Chris Paul being the closest behind him.


    You can call Jose 'dribbles' all you like, but the guy is one of the best play makers in the history of the game. That doesn't mean he doesn't have his weaknesses but this guy is a legit NBA starter thats gone undervalued by fans and this organization for the last 4 years.
    LOL Are you being serious?! So what has all those stats you just listed for Dribbles gotten us in terms of wins and playoff berths?!....0.o exactly stop your dick riding and look at the bigger picture ...and he is just an over-paid back up Lowry would feast on this guy any day of the week...One question for you why can't he produce like this coming of the bench?!0.o because he sucks and is a sulk.... his revolving door defense and timid "protect my stats plays" are obviously being over looked by you. and no he is not a legit starting guard ask Kenny The Jet Smith http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA8ausJsl78 0.o

  19. #59
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    Lowry hasn't feasted on anybody since the first few games. Injuries aside, I am getting the feeling that he and the Raptors are not such a good fit. He's a solid player, he would look good in a Lakers uniform.

  20. #60
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    Everyone hating on joses lack of a winning record is forgetting to look at other constants. Being the players around him, hes played with Finesse big men his entire tenure as a raptor and now that he has some good pick and roll partners and good backcourt defense he is obviously going to play some of the best basketball of his career. Jose is not the problem. Bargnani and Bosh were.

    I will say that trading Jose is probably the best action going forward buy only if there is significant value coming back. Jose may not be the solution for this team , but frankly if Jose isnt, then neither is Lowry.

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